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happilycatholic
Guest
I converted from Baptist in 2005. I spent more than a few years studying catholicism and still didn’t know.
Although, I feel a little like it’s opening Pandora’s Box
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Although, I feel a little like it’s opening Pandora’s Box
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happilycatholic
Guest
You could make it fit…but…should it be started in aplogetics or in non-catholic religions? hmmmmmm
“Predestination…Catholic or Protestant?”
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happilycatholic
Guest
Of course the answer is both but I think few catholics know and think otherwise.
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pickguard1
Guest
Here’s the link to the new thread in Apologetics! Let’s see where it goes!
Yes, Catholics also believe in predestination - So There!
Yes, Catholics also believe in predestination - So There!
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happilycatholic
Guest
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distracted
Guest
i didn’t mean to tear anyone down… didn’t think my words would do such a thing…I am hurt if you imply that I believe in a God that doesn’t exist…for that is what you truly say, since there is but one God, and if you say we believe in different Gods, then one of us worships no God at all…
I believe we both believe in The One True God, just that you, like me, find Him ineffable, and His ways inscrutible. We should all be here to learn and support eachother, not tear eachother down.
I’m sorry you were hurt…
hey… are you a guy?? admitting you were “hurt”??? Wow… never met such a creature…
maybe men aren’t all the same after all… hmmm…
:coffeeread:anyhow… where was i?
oh…
the only kind of predestination i belive in is that God, when He created us, predestined us all for Heaven… If we don’t make it, it is not His fault… but ours.
no one is predestined to Hell…
do you agree with this??
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distracted
Guest
yes but sometimes life can make you (as it were) not llke God very much… When we dont’ u/stand whaat is going on, when we feel He is being mean to us by allowing this or that to happen to us… or others…Absolutely! This is why the old act of contrition is so beautiful - "I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of heaven and the pains of hell, but most of all because they have offended you who art all good and deserving of all my love.
We should fear offending the pure love and goodness of God for His own sake. If we love God, really, we have no reason at all to fear the presence of Satan, because God will give us all the tools (grace) we need to resist the devil. Rather, all our focus should be on pleasing God because, hey, he deserves it after all. And that is a pretty tall order (obviously even for St. Paul)
in times like that, well… that’s when we need the fear of God…
people act like fear of God is a bad thing. Its not… it is the realistic position and it can get people to Heaven… and i feel it gets people to Heaven as often or even more often than LOVE of God does…
Fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom, the Bible tells us…
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pickguard1
Guest
I can be a sensitive guy at timesi didn’t mean to tear anyone down… didn’t think my words would do such a thing…
I’m sorry you were hurt…
hey… are you a guy?? admitting you were “hurt”??? Wow… never met such a creature…
maybe men aren’t all the same after all… hmmm…
anyhow… where was i?
oh…
the only kind of predestination i belive in is that God, when He created us, predestined us all for Heaven… If we don’t make it, it is not His fault… but ours.
no one is predestined to Hell…
do you agree with this??
But in this case it’s only because I have heard the same line “we must believe in different Gods” before from a very close priest when I asked him if he would let my wife and me be married in a Traditional Latin Mass - his words were (after saying no way no how - that’s going backwards, will you reconsider and I said no) “well, that’s between you and your God” - as if all of a sudden “my” God was different than his. - but that’s another story.on the topic
I don’t believe that anyone is *predetermined *to go to hell, if that’s what you mean. As far as predestination is concerned - I think the article HappilyCatholic posted is very helpful with sorting out the details of what a Catholic understanding of it is. You should definitely read it - it helped me out.
In a nutshell, since God knows all things, he knows who will and won’t end up in heaven from eternity - that’s the key. He knows who will use his free will to conform to Himself and who won’t. He knows who He will bestow graces upon and who He won’t. So predestination isn’t a matter of God choosing for us, but rather an effect of His already knowing the end result of everything. So in this sense, yes, I believe that some are predestined to heaven and some are, in the Catholic terminology, reprobated to hell - but again, not as by a singular act of God that decides the matter for us, but because God simply knows the end result as part of His omniscience.
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pickguard1
Guest
Most definitely there is a place for fear of God, in the neagtive sense (in that we fear His punishments). Indeed, it is a healthy and natural fear, but it is not really our calling. Our calling is to love Him who loves us as He loves us. Our fear of God is a result of our fallen nature, but we should at all times try to overcome that. One way is to remember that it is not fear of God that makes us happy, but love of God.
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distracted
Guest
again, this makes no sense… God does not make us ‘gods" in our own right (the bible confirms this), & give us free will to do anything we want… and then KNOW exactly waht we will choose… This is not logical… we are not robots… He knows what we, with our particular genetic make-up and etc, etc… we will LIKELY do… all the choices we have in advance… but not what choice we will make… He knows everything about human nature but he does NOT know whether a given person will choose to overcome the negative aspects of human nature… He knows that ALL of us are disinclined to do so… which is why Jesus’ sacrifice was necessary… he knows how hard it is … but thats all…
yes, God is omnipotenent and omniscient… but if he chooses not to make us robots and therefore, in so doing, to KNOW what we will do, well, he is still God, still all-powerful…
i don’t see why this seems hard for people to understand…
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distracted
Guest
i agree… and didn’t mean to imply otherwise…
but if we don’t fear an all-holy, all-powerful God - meaning: Fear going against his perfect laws… something is terribly wrong… (we’ve become OSASers
)…I have loved God for years now… but again, there are moments when i feel i do not love Him or like him… i get angry about things… that i feel he is doing in my life… tht make me feel that he is against me…
Usually i get over this in few minutes… but still… I am just trying to say that loving God doesn’t always keep us WITH him… in a deeply intimate way… but when we feel that way, we cn tell oursleves that we, nonetheless, have no choice in obeying his laws… because if we don’t, we will destroy oursleves and end up in Hell… where the destruction never ends…
i findthat getting away from humanoids on a regular basis helps with this kind ofthing because sometimes i really feel that the 'God" i am angry with is not really God… (the god of this world???)
All humans have thier demons (figurative and otherwise) … To NOT get away from them is to… be around demons too much…
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DavidMark
Guest
Three passages for consideration
Fate and predestination consist in the necessary and indispensable relationships which exist in the realities of things. These relationships have been placed in the realities of existent beings through the power of creation and every incident is a consequence of the necessary relationship. For example, God hath created a relation between the sun and the terrestrial globe that the rays of the sun should shine and the soil should yield. These relationships constitute predestination, and the manifestation thereof in the plane of existence is fate. Will is that active force which controlleth these relationships and these incidents. Such is the epitome of the explanation of fate and predestination. (Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 198)
**Worship thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God’s creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom. **(Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)
All that I beg of Thee, O my God, is to enable me, ere my soul departeth from my body, to attain Thy good-pleasure, even were it granted to me for a moment tinier than the infinitesimal fraction of a mustard seed. For if it departeth while Thou art pleased with me, then I shall be free from every concern or anxiety; but if it abandoneth me while Thou art displeased with me, then, even had I wrought every good deed, none would be of any avail, and had I earned every honour and glory, none would serve to exalt me. (The Báb, SWB, p. 187)
Fate and predestination consist in the necessary and indispensable relationships which exist in the realities of things. These relationships have been placed in the realities of existent beings through the power of creation and every incident is a consequence of the necessary relationship. For example, God hath created a relation between the sun and the terrestrial globe that the rays of the sun should shine and the soil should yield. These relationships constitute predestination, and the manifestation thereof in the plane of existence is fate. Will is that active force which controlleth these relationships and these incidents. Such is the epitome of the explanation of fate and predestination. (Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 198)
**Worship thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God’s creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom. **(Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)
All that I beg of Thee, O my God, is to enable me, ere my soul departeth from my body, to attain Thy good-pleasure, even were it granted to me for a moment tinier than the infinitesimal fraction of a mustard seed. For if it departeth while Thou art pleased with me, then I shall be free from every concern or anxiety; but if it abandoneth me while Thou art displeased with me, then, even had I wrought every good deed, none would be of any avail, and had I earned every honour and glory, none would serve to exalt me. (The Báb, SWB, p. 187)
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