Why would anybody condemn the Boy Scouts simply because they allow openly gay boys?

[Corki]

What would you suggest in the case of bisexual boys? Or essentially straight boys who may be “curious”? How should we screen boys to make sure they are 100% straight before joining the BSA? It’s behavior that counts, NOT same-sex attraction or sexual orientation.

You are right it’s the behavior that counts. Previously, unless a person was announcing his sexual disorder, there wasn’t a problem. Now, if a person announces his sexual disorder, the Boy Scouts are supposed to welcome him with open arms. The operative behavior is that of being** openly **“gay.” A person cannot be openly “gay” without some behavioral event. They are either telling people (a behavior), dating someone of the same sex (a behavior), hooking up with people of the same sex (a behavior) or advocating for same-sex causes (a behavior).

 

[Corki]

We’re living in a world that is undergoing rapid change. Along with this rapid change is a fair amount of chaos. Homosexuality may indeed be discorded, but it is our duty as a society to accommodate them the best as we can. We’re all in this together, and the ‘true’ solution will come with time, when the world is more stabilized.

It is absolutly not the duty of society to accomodate homosexuality or any other discordant lifestyle. The goal of society is to create order, not to encourage disorder.

 

[Robert_Sock]

It is absolutly not the duty of society to accomodate homosexuality or any other discordant lifestyle. The goal of society is to create order, not to encourage disorder.

Did Christ accommodate the sinful tax collectors? This is a question I have now posted several times, but nobody has responded.

 

[fix]

Did Christ accommodate the sinful tax collectors? This is a question I have now posted several times, but nobody has responded.

He did not affirm their disordered desires and encourage them to demand society view such inclinations as healthy and good.

 

[Robert_Sock]

He did not affirm their disordered desires and encourage them to demand society view such inclinations as healthy and good.

Are the BSA demanding these things? I sure don’t condone homosexual behavior, but I think society needs to accommodate them as much as possible, just like Christ accommodated the tax collectors at dinner.

 

[yellowbird]

He did not affirm their disordered desires and encourage them to demand society view such inclinations as healthy and good.

I don’t think the scout leaders have to say it’s healthy and good. Just that it exists and a scout can’t be kicked out for admitting he is gay.

How much time to scout leaders spend talking about sex? Aren’t they mostly about knots and building fires?

If you scroll back in this thread you’ll see that sexual activity is not allowed by a scout. Hetero or Homosexual.

 

[Corki]

Did Christ accommodate the sinful tax collectors? This is a question I have now posted several times, but nobody has responded.

First of all, being a tax collector was not a sin. Some of the tax collectors were corrupt and that was sinful.

But Jesus welcomed tax collectors, those who were corrupt and those who were not, as individuals. He never accomodated anyone’s sin, nor affirmed a sinful lifestyle.

 

[yellowbird]

Just asked my 50 something year old husband - Eagle Scout. For what it’s worth:

He said the changing, showering or whatever wouldn’t have been any different from what took place after gym class. Surely there are gay kids in the locker room. Everybody pretty much keeps to themselves.

He also said it would’ve freaked him out if he had to share a tent with an openly gay boy. Not because of the boy, but because he’d get teased by other guys in the troop - kids being horribly cruel like they are.

Seriously doubts a boy would admit to being openly gay prior to 14 or 15, and most boys drop out of scouts by that time so why is this a big deal?

He thinks it’s a good thing that they won’t kick out gay kids. Unless they’re also going to kick out the liars, the test cheaters, the kids who disobey their parents… etc. Thinks gay kids have it hard enough - now you’re kicking them out of scouts? Cruel.

His .02 cents.

 

[edwest2]

Not true, and rather offensive. Homosexuals are not a bloc. We are not talking about the Borg here.

Nice try, but you lost the dodge:

"The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force applauded Spielberg for his resignation.

“We’d like to thank Steven Spielberg for recognizing the bigotry that the Boy Scouts’ policy has been perpetuating,” said Elizabeth Toledo, the NGLTF executive director. “This issue won’t go away for the Boy Scouts. Through actions like these, they will be forced to revisit [their policies].”

Forced.

“Today is a historic day for Boy Scouts across the country who want to be a part of this great American institution,” said HRC President Chad Griffin. “But the new policy doesn’t go far enough. Parents and adults of good moral character, regardless of sexual orientation, should be able to volunteer their time to mentor the next generation of Americans.”

“The Boy Scouts of America can do better,” said Zach Wahls, an Eagle Scout and Executive Director of Scouts for Equality. “We welcome the news that the ban on gay Scouts is history, but our work isn’t over until we honor the Scout Law by making this American institution open and affirming to all.”

Human Rights Campaign - Working for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Equal Rights.

Apparently, not for “all.”

amazon.com/Beyond-Diversity-Day-Curriculum-Sexualities/dp/074252034X

Ed

 

[gracepoole]

Not true, and rather offensive. Homosexuals are not a bloc. We are not talking about the Borg here.

Nice try, but you lost the dodge:

"The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force applauded Spielberg for his resignation.

“We’d like to thank Steven Spielberg for recognizing the bigotry that the Boy Scouts’ policy has been perpetuating,” said Elizabeth Toledo, the NGLTF executive director. “This issue won’t go away for the Boy Scouts. Through actions like these, they will be forced to revisit [their policies].”

Forced.

“Today is a historic day for Boy Scouts across the country who want to be a part of this great American institution,” said HRC President Chad Griffin. “But the new policy doesn’t go far enough. Parents and adults of good moral character, regardless of sexual orientation, should be able to volunteer their time to mentor the next generation of Americans.”

“The Boy Scouts of America can do better,” said Zach Wahls, an Eagle Scout and Executive Director of Scouts for Equality. “We welcome the news that the ban on gay Scouts is history, but our work isn’t over until we honor the Scout Law by making this American institution open and affirming to all.”

Human Rights Campaign - Working for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Equal Rights.

Apparently, not for “all.”

amazon.com/Beyond-Diversity-Day-Curriculum-Sexualities/dp/074252034X

Ed

Of course! No thread here about the BSA would be complete without several copies of this quote from HRC.

 

[Baelor]

Nice try, but you lost the dodge

You misunderstand my point. Quoting some national gay group is proving my point exactly – you subscribe to the idea that gays are a homogeneous bloc who all want the same thing. Gay is not an ideology; it is a sexual attraction to the same sex. Saying that “the gays” want something is as absurd as saying that “the negroes” or “the mongoloids” or “the uglies” want something – these are people who have autonomous thought; you are conflating a state with a belief system.

I am not denying the existence of a gay lobby or agenda. I am acknowledging that “the gays” encompasses individuals who are not part of that lobby or agenda.

 

[edwest2]

Did Christ accommodate the sinful tax collectors? This is a question I have now posted several times, but nobody has responded.

"Love is not tolerance

"BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN

"Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

"It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.

"The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.

"It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.

"The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.

"Real love involves real hatred: whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.

"Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”; it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.

“Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God, which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.”

Ed

 

[gracepoole]

Did Christ accommodate the sinful tax collectors? This is a question I have now posted several times, but nobody has responded.

"Love is not tolerance

"BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN

"Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

"It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.

"The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.

"It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.

"The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.

"Real love involves real hatred: whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.

"Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”; it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.

“Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God, which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.”

Ed

This seems to support Robert’s point – if it’s the sin you despise and not the sinner, one would think your approach to homosexual boys in the BSA would be different.

 

[yellowbird]

"Love is not tolerance

"BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN

"Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

"It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.

"The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.

"It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.

"The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.

"Real love involves real hatred: whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.

"Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”; it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.

“Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God, which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.”

Ed

Love Bishop Fulton Sheen.

I wonder if he’d think the gay scout should be kicked out? I don’t think so, because to do so is hurtful and cruel. I believe he’d love the boy, and condem the practice of homosexuality. There is no sin in being a homosexual, the sin is in engaging in homosexual sex.

Who here is saying it’s ok to engage in homosexual sex? Nobody that I know of. Several are suggesting we love the sinner - and to that, I’m certain the good Bishop would agree.

 

[shocktrooper]

Then you understand why your response was irrelevant.

No. My point was made.

Homosexuals who are chaste do not necessarily go to gay bars.

That is what I said. Those with only SSA don’t go to gay bars. Only active and open homosexuals do. One does not go to the candy store if they have no intention to buy candy. Well, maybe there is an exception here or there, but surely not the norm.

Whatever I would call a heterosexual person who is sexually active – sexually active. I do not use separate words for said individuals, and I have no reason to add them to my vocabulary.

So you have never called an active homosexual a “homosexual”? Or “gay”?

 

[Baelor]

That is what I said. Those with only SSA don’t go to gay bars. Only active and open homosexuals do.

Homosexuals have only SSA. That is by definition what makes them homosexual. A subset of homosexuals go to gay bars; chaste homosexuals probably do not.

So you have never called an active homosexual a “homosexual”? Or “gay”?

Yes, in the same way I would call a heterosexual virgin “heterosexual” or “straight,” or a promiscuous heterosexual “heterosexual” or “straight,” or a chaste homosexual “homosexual” or “gay.”

A sexually active homosexual is a homosexual insofar as he is attracted to other men; the term applies even if he ceases to have sex.

 

[edwest2]

You misunderstand my point. Quoting some national gay group is proving my point exactly – you subscribe to the idea that gays are a homogeneous bloc who all want the same thing. Gay is not an ideology; it is a sexual attraction to the same sex. Saying that “the gays” want something is as absurd as saying that “the negroes” or “the mongoloids” or “the uglies” want something – these are people who have autonomous thought; you are conflating a state with a belief system.

I am not denying the existence of a gay lobby or agenda. I am acknowledging that “the gays” encompasses individuals who are not part of that lobby or agenda.

No, you are ignoring the obvious. Being openly gay as a boy scout means what? It is an affirmation that leads to what? The scouts were forced into this position but it’s not good enough. Those doing the forcing want gay adult scout leaders/mentors. For what? No particular reason? Again, your dodge roll failed.

Of course there are gays, blacks, whites, etc. that are not part of a particular agenda, group or organization but there are those who are. In this case, those gays who are, were there when the whole turn the world upside down, Sex without Love revolution was in full swing and for what? We’re seeing it today:

guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/oct/12/gay-liberation-front-social-revolution

Yeah, they’re still at it and the scouts are the latest victims.

Ed

 

[Baelor]

Of course there are gays, blacks, whites, etc. that are not part of a particular agenda, group or organization but there are those who are.

Thank you. So please stop referring to “the gays” wanting something and start referring to something more precise and therefore more correct.

 

[edwest2]

Love Bishop Fulton Sheen.

I wonder if he’d think the gay scout should be kicked out? I don’t think so, because to do so is hurtful and cruel. I believe he’d love the boy, and condem the practice of homosexuality. There is no sin in being a homosexual, the sin is in engaging in homosexual sex.

Who here is saying it’s ok to engage in homosexual sex? Nobody that I know of. Several are suggesting we love the sinner - and to that, I’m certain the good Bishop would agree.

The Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the Human Rights Campaign for starters.

Ed

 

[yellowbird]

Homosexuals have only SSA. That is by definition what makes them homosexual. A subset of homosexuals go to gay bars; chaste homosexuals probably do not.

Yes, in the same way I would call a heterosexual virgin “heterosexual” or “straight,” or a promiscuous heterosexual “heterosexual” or “straight,” or a chaste homosexual “homosexual” or “gay.”

A sexually active homosexual is a homosexual insofar as he is attracted to other men; the term applies even if he ceases to have sex.

This is so true. I work with teenagers & young adults - a few of whom have confided to me they are gay. They’ve not had sex - not had a relationship with anyone - don’t particularly want to (most are Christians) - but they still recognize their attraction is to the same sex so therefore they are gay.

There is NO sin in that.

And, I’m happy to know if they wanted to, they could be boy scouts.