Why would anybody condemn the Boy Scouts simply because they allow openly gay boys?

[CopticChristian]

I’m sure you’re loathe to agree with anything I might say, Coptic (), but I fully agree with *you *here. Well said.

You had me at agree…

 

[meltzerboy]

Wow,

This is not a way to aid dialogue. Meltz is and has been a contributor on CAF for sometime. I am interested in much of what Meltz has to say. We agree sometimes, we disagree sometimes and what happens to either of our souls has not been relevant to discussions I have had with Meltz.

What the Church teaches is that those Circumcised of the heart/Baptized of the heart/those that are not in what we believe to be in the Covenant is not our call…

we are fellow co-workers sowing seed…we are not the farmer…we do not own the land…just a bunch of guys tending the field…working with others tending the same field looking at the field in a different way…

Meltz has no need to offer any Catholic teaching for anything. What he believes, what he lives, is what he believes and lives. He probably understands Catholic teaching as well as some Catholics.

from the thread posted by GP…I believe your promotion, your preaching, your encouragement is in need of some polishing…

May I ask you to consider a different approach.

Thank you, Coptic, for your support. I’m sure shocktrooper was just emphasizing the distinction between what he considers the false rabbinic Judaism as opposed to ancient Judaism revealed in Catholicism. He may have worded his beliefs somewhat poorly. It happens to all of us.

Thanks to gracepoole and Robert as well.

Now back to the BSA!

 

[shocktrooper]

Salvation for Jews
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=10688

Lumen Gentium

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men,** deceived by the Evil One**, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

“But often…” This is the part most people ignore. This means that it happens more times than not, that people exchange the truth for a lie. This makes them culpable and not a candidate for “invincible ignorance”. How many Jews do you know of that have never heard of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? It surely sounds like meltzerboy has.

I highly recommend you read “Will Many be Saved” by Dr. Ralph Martin.

 

[shocktrooper]

Sounds a bit moody and belligerent.

One should not try to question ones tone when electronically communicating. I believe this would be on par with judging someones motives, which we have no way of knowing.

Remember that Jews are God’s chosen people and are the first to be saved:
*
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
-Romans 1:16*.

Yes, I agree. This has already happened since those he first choose were Jews and died and moved on to heavenly bliss.

 

[shocktrooper]

Thank you, Coptic, for your support. I’m sure shocktrooper was just emphasizing the distinction between what he considers the false rabbinic Judaism as opposed to ancient Judaism revealed in Catholicism. He may have worded his beliefs somewhat poorly. It happens to all of us.

Thanks to gracepoole and Robert as well.

Now back to the BSA!

I like you meltzerboy, but my comments stand. Any form of Judaism outside of Catholicism is false (to some degree) and considered a heresy just like all the Protestant faiths and Islam. I am not calling any person a heretic for I know the difference between one born into a heresy (false religion) and one that creates and teaches one. Please note my knowledge of this distinction.

God bless!

 

[CopticChristian]

Thank you, Coptic, for your support. I’m sure shocktrooper was just emphasizing the distinction between what he considers the false rabbinic Judaism as opposed to ancient Judaism revealed in Catholicism. He may have worded his beliefs somewhat poorly. It happens to all of us.

Thanks to gracepoole and Robert as well.

Now back to the BSA!

Well for one thing they don’t tell Jews that they cannot join the BSA and no policy needs to be changed for that:thumbsup:

 

[Tarpeian]

So you actually believe that every gay boy (or girl) simply accepts their being gay without a struggle? That is NOT the reality of the situation. Many gay people, particularly young people, are disgusted to find out they have SSA and pray to G-d that they and He can change that attraction. Some go to therapy in an effort to change. Others try to hide their sexual feelings, while still others deny them. There are also those who do their best to live a chaste life in accord with their religious beliefs, at times ashamed of their sexual proclivity. Those who are more obviously gay due to their appearance or mannerisms suffer ridicule from their peers, sometimes to the point of attempting and committing suicide. In fact, among youth, gay adolescents have the highest rate of suicide, given their numbers. Gays who can “pass” often live in fear they will be “discovered” and ostracized by family and friends. The information you’ve gleaned comes from the more vocal gay advocates that appear on the media. These are hardly a reflection of the misery that many gay youth experience on a continual basis.

No I do not believe that, nor did I say it, in fact I have listened to SSA men and their struggle on podcasts, but it is rare. And it’s rare because society tells them they are normal, and they should celebrate their sexual attraction, they are being “liberated.” You are correct, by the grace of God they can change. But as I have stated, it’s rare and nothing in society demonstrates otherwise. If anyone suggests otherwise, they are being intellectually dishonest or live a secluded life.

You are correct about the high suicide rate. Judas hung himself. Why?

You don’t have to convince me about the media. I go to the March For Life every year. My eyes are wide open about their abuse of power to sway public opinion, including Fox News. The numbers of SSA in America, if accurate is about 2-3%. If the numbers hold, I bet you a dinner that 95% of that number are not struggling. SSA surround themselves with like-minded people who reinforce their warped behavior. Add a society that is largely indifferent, a government that calls evil good and this is the result. We are talking about souls hanging in the balance. Try to have a charitable discourse with one. They overwhelmingly “take their basketball and go home.” After all they are “free.” But freedom for them means license. They are slaves to their vice, and don’t even realize it, except in the still of the night, when that annoying thing called conscience starts to scratch them where they itch.

You say “many” gay youth experience misery. That claim is not tenable. Where are they not accepted? The gay agenda (culture of death) is winning on every front. Even when the silent majority rises up and fights back within the confines of the law, their voice is crushed by a single rogue judge. We will have to agree to disagree.

We may have drifted from the content of the thread, but I wanted to address some of your points.

Pax,
Tarpeian

 

[Tarpeian]

“But the synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater; it also is a den of robbers and a lodging for wild beasts.”

– St. John Chrysostom

You are free to interpret this and his other quotes on Jews as you like. I would suggest that a deeper understanding of antisemitism and its definition might be helpful.

gracepoole,

I will tackle this in another thread if you like. But if everything I say is perceived as anti-Semitic then its all in vain:shrug: I’m not free to interpret any quote, passage, etc. as I wish.

Pax,
Tarpeian

 

[yellowbird]

Tarpeian - may I ask how many gay people you know? How many you’ve had an honest discussion with about what its like for them to be gay? I know several … A handful are what I’d consider very good friends. One is a family member. Not a single one came out of the closet without years of struggle beforehand. All faced some sort of backlash., from their family, social circle - whatever. One recently told me that the hard part about being gay is that he repeatedly has to come out. Recently a coworker said to him, “You never talk about women, you’re not a fag are you?”

You speak as if being gay is one big rainbow party. It’s actually not. At all. Even the catechism speaks of us having compassion for gay people because of their struggle. You have some work to do in that regard. Your posts come across as very hateful toward them. They are children of God - remember that.

 

[Fairwinds]

… Any form of Judaism outside of Catholicism is false (to some degree) and considered a heresy just like all the Protestant faiths and Islam…!

why don’t you let God take care of that? I’m not convinced He needs your advice.

 

[Tigg]

No I do not believe that, nor did I say it, in fact I have listened to SSA men and their struggle on podcasts, but it is rare. ***And it’s rare because society tells them they are normal, and they should celebrate their sexual attraction, they are being “liberated.” ***You are correct, by the grace of God they can change. But as I have stated, it’s rare and nothing in society demonstrates otherwise. If anyone suggests otherwise, they are being intellectually dishonest or live a secluded life.

You are correct about the high suicide rate. Judas hung himself. Why?

You don’t have to convince me about the media. I go to the March For Life every year. My eyes are wide open about their abuse of power to sway public opinion, including Fox News. The numbers of SSA in America, if accurate is about 2-3%. If the numbers hold, I bet you a dinner that 95% of that number are not struggling. **SSA surround themselves with like-minded people who reinforce their warped behavior. Add a society that is largely indifferent, a government that calls evil good and this is the result. **We are talking about souls hanging in the balance. Try to have a charitable discourse with one. They overwhelmingly “take their basketball and go home.” After all they are “free.” But freedom for them means license. They are slaves to their vice, and don’t even realize it, except in the still of the night, when that annoying thing called conscience starts to scratch them where they itch.

You say “many” gay youth experience misery. That claim is not tenable. Where are they not accepted? The gay agenda (culture of death) is winning on every front. Even when the silent majority rises up and fights back within the confines of the law, their voice is crushed by a single rogue judge. We will have to agree to disagree.

We may have drifted from the content of the thread, but I wanted to address some of your points.

Pax,
Tarpeian

Thank you!! This is a succinct, wonderful post - I would never have been able to state so clearly my thoughts which echo your own. God never stops calling us in the deepest recesses of our hearts and **that **is the struggle for gays - to listen to the world and its attempt to anesthetize a lifestyle which would bring death, or heed the Voice that encourages a new hope in the sunshine. Of course, your post will come across as hateful to some and we will be reminded once again that we must have compassion when, in reality, **true ****compassion **is wanting the very best for them - a life that has the promise of walking with God for eternity.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t see anything wrong with allowing openly gay scouts unless by openly gay they mean someone who is gay and who is even “proud” of being gay and who says there is nothing wrong with the gay lifestyle. However, that is not how I understand it. From what I understand they do require scouts to live a morally upright life just as the Catholic Church does.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I’m still waiting patiently for those condemning BSA to please interpret the following passage of scripture. Note that I’m not interested in Romans or any other passage. Surly, Christ is accommodating sinners and we must strive to imitate Christ:

And as he sat at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
-Matthew 9:9-13

 

[pnewton]

I’m still waiting patiently for those condemning BSA to please interpret the following passage of scripture. Note that I’m not interested in Romans or any other passage. Surly, Christ is accommodating sinners and we must strive to imitate Christ:

And as he sat at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
-Matthew 9:9-13

This verse shows that we do not shun those who are seeking righteousness and repentance because of their station in life. The analogy differs from the current situation in two significant ways. First, these people are are seeking repentance, not affirming their lifestyle. Second, Jesus is the divine Son of God, not a child in the process of being mentored.

 

[Robert_Sock]

This verse shows that we do not shun those who are seeking righteousness and repentance because of their station in life. The analogy differs from the current situation in two significant ways. First, these people are are seeking repentance, not affirming their lifestyle. Second, Jesus is the divine Son of God, not a child in the process of being mentored.

Where does it say that they were seeking repentance? Surly, it would be in the text if they were. Also, would they need a physician if they were already repentant?

 

[pnewton]

Where does it say that they were seeking repentance? Surly, it would be in the text if they were. Also, would they need a physician if they were already repentant?

No, it would not be in their. Catholics do not subscribe to self-interpretation or sola scriptura. Jesus gave his mission to these people here, “Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came** not to call the righteous, but sinners.” **What else is there to call sinners to if not repentance? A night out on the town?

Do not ask for a response if you do not want one. I gave you what you asked for and gave two differencese that might make the analogy inapplicable. Children are not adults. We do not expose everything to children that we do adults, nor treat them identical.

 

[CopticChristian]

Tarpeian - may I ask how many gay people you know? How many you’ve had an honest discussion with about what its like for them to be gay? I know several … A handful are what I’d consider very good friends.

You have some work to do in that regard. Your posts come across as very hateful toward them. They are children of God - remember that.

Well,

Here is a revelation.

One is a family member. Not a single one came out of the closet without years of struggle beforehand. All faced some sort of backlash., from their family, social circle - whatever.

Every person has parents…and every person has a family. Every person is involved in society to some extent. Not every person in any family has united views with the family. Not every person that has a family that has thoughts, beliefs, opinions and lifestyle is in concert with or has agreement from all society.

One recently told me that the hard part about being gay is that he repeatedly has to come out. Recently a coworker said to him, “You never talk about women, you’re not a fag are you?”

The world is not going to change to conform to anyone person ever. The world will have people that agree, disagree, like, dislike, love, hate the lifestyle of another person. It may be that they dress funny, look funny, act funny, talk funny and the world is just like that.

You speak as if being gay is one big rainbow party. It’s actually not. At all. Even the catechism speaks of us having compassion for gay people because of their struggle.

Any person that has SSA and struggles, that comes to anyone that is in the Church and tells them that they struggle should be accepted with compassion. Any person that has SSA that struggles and accepts their life as “gay” as a fait accompli should be dealt with compassionately and honestly without acceptance of their belief that their life is a fait accompli.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m still waiting patiently for those condemning BSA to please interpret the following passage of scripture. Note that I’m not interested in Romans or any other passage. Surly, Christ is accommodating sinners and we must strive to imitate Christ:

And as he sat at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
-Matthew 9:9-13

Robert,

Jesus was introducing the New Covenant that says “all are under the power of sin” and in the Covenant there are those that do good and those that do evil to those that do good. The Pharisees believed that in the Old Covenant they were exempt from the power of sin and Paul points that out in Romans…

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

The Pharisees seeing Jesus eating with sinners did not understand that they were also sinners and in the context of who he was with, he dialogued and was with them as well…they too were sinners and did not know it…

Paul goes on to say that while under sin there are “God’s people” and those that eat up “God’s people like bread”…and if you recall in Romans 2 Paul points out that you will be rewarded for what you do and continue to do…but all are not exempt from sin…and later Paul points out that we are descendants of Adam, not Abraham as the Jew wanted to believe, putting trust in the Old Covenant…pointing out that by one man’s disobedience…sin entered the world and by one man’s obedience we were made rigtheous…in Baptism, and yet even then we are under the power of sin…

and Jesus welcomes all that sin as we do, however it is expected that we continue to do good, what is right and will be rewarded, doing good, with grace, not on our own…but by the grace of God as Paul points out in Romans 2.

Yes, Jesus ate with sinners…but show me where Jesus or Paul says we are to remain sinners…without asking for help to do what is right and pleasing to God and that goes for the person struggling with SSA as well…

 

[Robert_Sock]

No, it would not be in their. Catholics do not subscribe to self-interpretation or sola scriptura. Jesus gave his mission to these people here, “Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came** not to call the righteous, but sinners.” **What else is there to call sinners to if not repentance? A night out on the town?

Do not ask for a response if you do not want one. I gave you what you asked for and gave two differencese that might make the analogy inapplicable. Children are not adults. We do not expose everything to children that we do adults, nor treat them identical.

Yes, Jesus is there because he came to call sinners. If they were not sinners, they would have been called repentant or righteous. It seems like you’re trying to make it sound in accord to your own interpretation.

Well, excuse me for commenting on one of your posts! What on this earth did you expect? You sound edgy this morning, no?

 

[Monkey1976]

Yes, Jesus is there because he came to call sinners. If they were not sinners, they would have been called repentant or righteous. It seems like you’re trying to make it sound in accord to your own interpretation.

But it’s a valid question: He came to call sinners. What is He calling us to?