Why would anyone want to be a Mormon or Jehovah Witnesses?

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mathonihah said:
People will take offence at whatever they want to take offence. The point I was making was that the Lord’s condemnation in the First Vision was directed primarily to what it calls the “professors of religion,” not the rank and file members of the Churches, or Christianity in general.
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In which version? See, the Lord did not condemn in every version. You need to let us know which of his many versions you are talking about
 
mathonihah said:
The evidence is in the testimony of the Holy Spirit of Church members. We use the Bible mainly to demonstrate that there is no contradiction between Mormon revelation and the Bible, not in order to prove the fine points of the Restoration from the Bible. Since our critics like to quote from the Bible to prove Mormonism wrong, we use the same Bible to point out the flaws in their arguments. But the proof of the Restoration is not in the Bible. It is in the testimony of the Holy Ghost.
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But you have quoted nothing. When asked, you run. And I know that Holy Spirit. It led me out of the LDS Church
 
mathonihah said:
I don’t need a reason. The testimony of the Holy Ghost itself is a reason.
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Your reasoning is circular.

It’s like asking, “why is the sky blue”, and you say, “because the sky is blue”.

I hope you can see that this isn’t a reason, it is a statement of belief without a reason.

[BIBLEDRB]1 peter 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

…something you seem unable to do.
 
mathonihah said:
You call it feelings, I call it the testimony of the Holy Ghost.
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Nope. The Holy Spirit would never lead someone into that church…you need to ask for Spiritual Guidance from the True God, not the LDS one
 
TexanKnight said:
lets discuss reason…

tell me the exact location of Zerehemla…I will be waiting
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He’s just going to tell you that the LDS church doesn’t know where it’s at and that just because we don’t know where it’s at yet doesn’t mean we won’t be able to find its location in the future.

He’ll then state that you’ve had 2000+ years to provide evidence for your church, the LDS has had only 300 or so years.

Or he’ll just say its irrelevant
 
try to be kind to mathonihan. i know how frustrating it is to encounter people with blind faith. i am experiencing that frustration also.

but, on the other hand, mathonihan has great faith. he/she has great intensity for knowing the truth. he/she cannot know the catholic faith at the current time because he/she has so wholly embraced the faith he/she has been given.

because of mathonihan great desire to serve the truth and the good, it may well be the real Holy Spirit who has brought him to Catholic Answers.

after reading his and our many posts, it seems we are getting nowhere with our present approach.

i imagine mathonihan fees threatened by our requests for evidence and support for his/her beliefs. especially, since such evidence and support does not exist.

i am not intending to offend any of you, but i encourage you to try and imagine yourself in the place of someone who has lived his or her life based on a devout and intense belief in a faith system and then faces our responses that clearly show the system to be incomplete, at best and completely false at worst. that is where mathonihan finds him/herself.

i know he/she is here voluntarily. but, we should be most interested in being instruments of the Holy Spirit in his/her life.

respond as you wish, but do so with the salvation of mathonihan’s soul as your primary motivation.

sorry if this is preachy, but in my judgment, we are all really spinning our wheels in this encounter with mathonihan.
 
eddie_too said:
try to be kind to mathonihan. i know how frustrating it is to encounter people with blind faith. i am experiencing that frustration also.

but, on the other hand, mathonihan has great faith. he/she has great intensity for knowing the truth. he/she cannot know the catholic faith at the current time because he/she has so wholly embraced the faith he/she has been given.

because of mathonihan great desire to serve the truth and the good, it may well be the real Holy Spirit who has brought him to Catholic Answers.

after reading his and our many posts, it seems we are getting nowhere with our present approach.

i imagine mathonihan fees threatened by our requests for evidence and support for his/her beliefs. especially, since such evidence and support does not exist.

i am not intending to offend any of you, but i encourage you to try and imagine yourself in the place of someone who has lived his or her life based on a devout and intense belief in a faith system and then faces our responses that clearly show the system to be incomplete, at best and completely false at worst. that is where mathonihan finds him/herself.

i know he/she is here voluntarily. but, we should be most interested in being instruments of the Holy Spirit in his/her life.

respond as you wish, but do so with the salvation of mathonihan’s soul as your primary motivation.

sorry if this is preachy, but in my judgment, we are all really spinning our wheels in this encounter with mathonihan.
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I understand what you are saying. But if someone comes here and makes claims, we are going to ask for the claims to be backed up.
 
eddie_too said:
try to be kind to mathonihan. i know how frustrating it is to encounter people with blind faith. i am experiencing that frustration also.

but, on the other hand, mathonihan has great faith. he/she has great intensity for knowing the truth. he/she cannot know the catholic faith at the current time because he/she has so wholly embraced the faith he/she has been given.

because of mathonihan great desire to serve the truth and the good, it may well be the real Holy Spirit who has brought him to Catholic Answers.

after reading his and our many posts, it seems we are getting nowhere with our present approach.

i imagine mathonihan fees threatened by our requests for evidence and support for his/her beliefs. especially, since such evidence and support does not exist.

i am not intending to offend any of you, but i encourage you to try and imagine yourself in the place of someone who has lived his or her life based on a devout and intense belief in a faith system and then faces our responses that clearly show the system to be incomplete, at best and completely false at worst. that is where mathonihan finds him/herself.

i know he/she is here voluntarily. but, we should be most interested in being instruments of the Holy Spirit in his/her life.

respond as you wish, but do so with the salvation of mathonihan’s soul as your primary motivation.

sorry if this is preachy, but in my judgment, we are all really spinning our wheels in this encounter with mathonihan.
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Who says we aren’t?
 
mathonihah said:
It was a matter of just looking it up:
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I was your claim to support and you gave an impossible to know reference,how was anyone supposed to know what JS-H meant before you explained it. Since this is something you are familiar with and it is rather large it is up to you to quote the relevant part, that’s simply good writing technique and good manners.
mathonihah said:
“Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement;
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Recounting a conversation with one minister does not support your made up definition.
mathonihah said:
and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.
“I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion,
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Neither does this bolded part support your made up definition it could just as well be a general rabble of professed Christians.
mathonihah said:
and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing
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Again here this is simply men of high standing this would include respected business and community leaders not just ministers.
mathonihah said:
would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects—all united to persecute me.
“It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and reviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself.
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This comes closest to your claim
mathonihah said:
“We had been threatened with being mobbed, from time to time, and this, too, by professors of religion. And their intentions of mobbing us were only counteracted by the influence of my wife’s father’s family (under Divine providence), who had become very friendly to me, and who were opposed to mobs, and were willing that I should be allowed to continue the work of translation without interruption; and therefore offered and promised us protection from all unlawful proceedings, as far as in them lay. (JS–H 1:21–23, 75)
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This last one not only doesn’t support your definition it actually supports the idea that he means those who profess the creeds are corrupt. it is a mob of professed Christians he is referring to, in my town of 34,000 people you’d be hard pressed to come up with a mob of preachers and ministers.
 
mathonihan cannot back them up. no mormon can.

in a way mathonihan reminds me of saul before he became paul, great devotion to his faith.

maybe Catholic Answers can become mathonihan’s “road to damascus”?

i am pretty certain mathonihan understands that catholics place a great emphasis on the use of reason and having support for their belief.

hopefully, he/she can see that this is a distinct and significant difference between catholicism and moromonism.

anyway, let’s all pray for mathonihan’s conversion. it will only occur through the grace of God, but God hears the prayers of His people.
 
mathonihah said:
I am sure it would be offensive to the named clergy etc., but not necessarily to the rank and file membership of the churches. Mormon revelation pronounces dire consequences on those who in the last days “build up churches unto themselves to get gain …” (Mormon 8:33; D&C 10:56). Those were the ones who were being condemned in the First Vision. I am sure they would take offence (unless they were honest enough to acknowledge the truth and repent). But the remarks were not aimed at just anyone who is Christian.
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Nothing you have quoted anywhere supports the bit about building up churches unto themselves to get gain.
And I can see members of the church being offended by the smearing the the good men who serve them, by the LDS army sent out to tear down their faith.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Your reasoning is circular.

It’s like asking, “why is the sky blue”, and you say, “because the sky is blue”.

I hope you can see that this isn’t a reason, it is a statement of belief without a reason.
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A statement of belief is without a reason, or the belief itself is the reason.
[BIBLEDRB]1 peter 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]
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…something you seem unable to do.
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I do absolutely. The reason is the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. I have read it, and the Holy Spirit testifies to me that it is true. That is good enough reason for me. If it is not good enough for some people, so be it. Obviously I am not the only one whom it is “good for,” otherwise there wouldn’t be any Mormons. So obviously it is good enough for some people, if not for everyone.
 
mathonihah said:
A statement of belief is without a reason, or the belief itself is the reason.

I do absolutely. The reason is the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. I have read it, and the Holy Spirit testifies to me that it is true. That is good enough reason for me. If it is not good enough for some people, so be it. Obviously I am not the only one whom it is “good for,” otherwise there wouldn’t be any Mormons. So obviously it is good enough for some people, if not for everyone.
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You have heard of placebo and suggestion? One cannot be sure it’s the Holy Spirit simpyl because one’s tummy gets warm. After all, I can claim that for movies and other books!
 
TexanKnight said:
Nope. The Holy Spirit would never lead someone into that church…you need to ask for Spiritual Guidance from the True God, not the LDS one
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If that works for you, good luck with that. But why do you have to impose it on me? I am very happy with what I have got, thank you.
 
TexanKnight said:
lets discuss reason…

tell me the exact location of Zerehemla…I will be waiting
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That is a silly question. I don’t need to know where Zarahemla is in order to believe in the Book of Mormon. If it is important to you, then you don’t have to believe in the Book of Mormon. Why do you think I don’t need to believe, just because you don’t need to believe?
 
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