Why would anyone want to be a Mormon or Jehovah Witnesses?

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mathonihah said:
That is one possible perspective, obviously. I am not denying that. What I am saying is that the criteria by which he is trying to judge a religion is not the right one—whether it is Mormonism or something else.
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Your opinion, of course.
 
mathonihah said:
I would have thought that was obvious. We are all expressing our opinions, including you. Aren’t you?
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I haven’t tried to change what the OP is asking to something I prefer to answer, based on my opinion.

Obviously, the OP finds a spiritual tradition to be important. “The religion is old.”, probably isn’t the reason.

Catholics view religious tradition as important because Christianity is built on the religious traditions of Judaism. The Liturgy, what I assume you are tritely calling “pomp and ceremony”, is very important to Catholics, and has roots in Jewish religious traditions. So, not so much my opinion, but a Catholic (me) expressing belief about the importance of spiritual tradition.

So! You could try to answer the actual question, rather than trying to make it a question that you would like to be asked.
 
mathonihah said:
The question one should ask about any religion before joining is whether its claims are true or not.
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I’m sorry, but this smacks of “lying for the lord.” There is a you tube video of Bob Millet (BYU Professor of ancient scripture) explaining to missionaries to “answer the question they should have asked”

See it here
 
RebeccaJ said:
I haven’t tried to change what the OP is asking to something I prefer to answer, based on my opinion.
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I think the OP is asking the wrong question. You can’t expect to get the right answer by asking the wrong question. That is what I was pointing out to him. I don’t see why anyone should want to object to that being pointed out to him. If you disagree with me, and think he is asking the right question, you can express your point of view as well. But I can’t understand why you are objecting to me expressing my point of view too.
Obviously, the OP finds a spiritual tradition to be important. “The religion is old.”, probably isn’t the reason.
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That is fine. It is quite possible that I had misunderstood his OP, in which case he has the opportunity to express his viewpoint as well. But I would rather hear that direct from him rather than from someone else.
Catholics view religious tradition as important because Christianity is built on the religious traditions of Judaism. The Liturgy, what I assume you are tritely calling “pomp and ceremony”, is very important to Catholics, and has roots in Jewish religious traditions. So, not so much my opinion, but a Catholic (me) expressing belief about the importance of spiritual tradition.
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I don’t want to go into the details of what makes a religious tradition. Suffice it to say that religious tradition takes time to develop; whether it is Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, or any other religion. No religion starts off with an established tradition. It develops over time. To say that a religion is not worth joining unless it has an established tradition amounts to saying that a religion is not worth joining until it is old! That is an illogical expectation, and implies that you are not looking at religion from a logical point of view.
So! You could try to answer the actual question, rather than trying to make it a question that you would like to be asked.
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I think I have given the OP the most intelligent answer that I could give. I can’t really improve on that until I receive more feedback from him.
 
mathonihah said:
I can’t’ answer for the JWs; but the best answer from a Mormon perspective is to put yourself in the situation of someone asking that question in the early days of Islam. Why would someone in the early days of Islam, or in the days of the Prophet Muhammad, want to be a Muslim? It had no “spiritual tradition” as yet. It was a young religion. Spiritual traditions take time to develop. Your question amounts to saying, “A religion is not worth joining until it is old!” Well that is silly. If a religion is true, it is worth joining at any stage in its history. If it is not true, then it is not worth joining at any stage in its history.
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I think you have a fair argument, but my issue with this is that I don’t think very many people converted to early Islam because they thought it was true. Muhammad’s close friends and family members offered something a lot more valuable than religious truth to the average Arab in the 600’s: protection. He had the connections and financial backing to shelter his people, so I have a hard time believing all of the early converts read accounts of Ishmael’s prophet-hood and pegasus rides and thought that totally sounded more true than their own religious beliefs. You have food and water and an army to protect me and my family? Yeah, I’m in. Praise Allah.

And taking into account the Muslim states’ tendency to tolerate other religions, it would only be a matter of time Christians and Pagans would slowly convert to Islam through intermarrying and natural assimilation through the generations.
There is another potential problem. A religion may have been true when it started, but not true any more! An old religion does not necessarily mean a true religion. Are you looking for truth, or are you looking for pomp and ceremony and tradition? The question one should ask about any religion before joining is whether its claims are true or not. And if its claims were true at one time, whether they remain true still. That is the right approach before joining a new religion.
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Well, if that’s the case I can make up a religion and swear it’s totally true. If I’m charismatic enough I can have a few followers who’ll spread my truth. Then based on the future convert’s emotional state he or she can also start to think of it as true. It’s not fair to compare “pomp and ceremony” (coughcough endowment coughcoughcough) to truthfulness.
 
twopekinguys said:
I’m sorry, but this smacks of “lying for the lord.” There is a you tube video of Bob Millet (BYU Professor of ancient scripture) explaining to missionaries to “answer the question they should have asked”

See it here
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Sorry, but I don’t really understand your response. I have nothing to say in reply to your post.
 
mathonihah said:
I think the OP is asking the wrong question. You can’t expect to get the right answer by asking the wrong question. That is what I was pointing out to him.
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That’s called artful dodging. It’s something politicians, used car salesmen and cult leaders do. (L.Ron Hubbard was the master of artful dodging.) And as an aside, one of the basic tenants of Scientology is “If it isn’t true for you, it isn’t true.”
 
Stephen168 said:
Because you didn’t answer the question. Instead you said:

It is impossible for the OP to ask the wrong question; you just don’t want to answer it.
It is kind of a lie.
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Not at all. It is perfectly possible to “ask the wrong question,” or to have the wrong expectation of religion; and many do.
 
mathonihah said:
Are you looking for truth, or are you looking for pomp and ceremony and tradition? The question one should ask about any religion before joining is whether its claims are true or not. And if its claims were true at one time, whether they remain true still. That is the right approach before joining a new religion.
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Pomp, ceremony, tradition, and truth are not mutually exclusion. Truth requires reason.
mathonihah said:
I read the Book of Mormon, and gained a testimony of the Holy Spirit that it is true.
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This does not seem like a method to know if something is true, it lacks reason. Is there a reason you became Mormon?
 
Robot_Maria said:
That’s called artful dodging. It’s something politicians, used car salesmen and cult leaders do. (L.Ron Hubbard was the master of artful dodging.) And as an aside, one of the basic tenants of Scientology is “If it isn’t true for you, it isn’t true.”
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Not at all. As I said in my previous post: “It is perfectly possible to “ask the wrong question,” or to have the wrong expectation of religion; and many do.”
 
mathonihah said:
I think the OP is asking the wrong question. You can’t expect to get the right answer by asking the wrong question. That is what I was pointing out to him. I don’t see why anyone should want to object to that being pointed out to him. If you disagree with me, and think he is asking the right question, you can express your point of view as well. But I can’t understand why you are objecting to me expressing my point of view too.
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I think others have pointed out why you may want to change your approach. Of course, you don’t have to, but you should be aware that answering a question with the question you think should have been asked, can be viewed as seeking to manipulate rather than inform.
I don’t want to go into the details of what makes a religious tradition. Suffice it to say that religious tradition takes time to develop; whether it is Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, or any other religion. No religion starts off with an established tradition. It develops over time. To say that a religion is not worth joining unless it has an established tradition amounts to saying that a religion is not worth joining until it is old! That is an illogical expectation, and implies that you are not looking at religion from a logical point of view.
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Traditions, with a capital ‘T’, in Catholicism were established from the beginning. See 2 Thes. 2:15. Mormonism has been well established for at least 180 years. Certainly a long enough time to have developed spiritual traditions.
I think I have given the OP the most intelligent answer that I could give. I can’t really improve on that until I receive more feedback from him.
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You didn’t answer the question.
 
mathonihah said:
Not at all. It is perfectly possible to “ask the wrong question,” or to have the wrong expectation of religion; and many do.
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It is the Op’s question and it is correct for that person. And a person’s “expectation of religion” is also their own and not yours. Telling someone what they should expect is part of the dodge/lie/manipulation.
 
mathonihah said:
I think the OP is asking the wrong question. You can’t expect to get the right answer by asking the wrong question. That is what I was pointing out to him. I don’t see why anyone should want to object to that being pointed out to him.
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Your logic begins with the supposition that you have the right answer and therefore any question that does not pertain to your answer must be incorrect. It is like saying “the answer is ‘blue’”. So if one asks what the color of the sun is he asking the wrong question. And you are surprised that anyone would object to this line of thinking? A question cannot be wrong. Only answers can be wrong.
 
mathonihah said:
Sorry, but I don’t really understand your response. I have nothing to say in reply to your post.
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It really isn’t that hard to follow.

You said
mathonihah said:
I think the OP is asking the wrong question. You can’t expect to get the right answer by asking the wrong question. .
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The link I provided showed a BYU professor talking to missionaries telling them to answer the question that should have been asked instead of the question that was asked.

You are giving him the answer you think he should have instead of the answer to his question.

See it now?
 
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