Why would anyone want to be a Mormon or Jehovah Witnesses?

[eddie_too]

there is so little common ground between mormons and traditional christianity that dialogue between them is unlikely to bear any positive fruit.

mormons do not believe in the same God as traditional christians.

mormons do not believe in the Holy Trinity.

mormons do not believe Jesus Christ is eternal and infinite, our uncreated Creator.

mormons believe God the Father is a physical being.

the differences between mormon theology and traditional christian theology are far greater than the similarities.

why would God re-establish and institution that failed completely, shortly after God started it?

to mormons, God re-establishing a failed institution makes PERFECT sense. they do not even really understand what others are asking when they ask that question.

men misunderstand God all of the time. that is why mormon doctrines are malleable, changeable from one day to the next.

i have never had a mormon explain to me how the LDS established by joseph smith avoids apostasy since they teach that men get God’s message wrong all of the time.

in addition,what good would God’s teachings be if He allowed men to distort it or misunderstand it on a regular basis?

this is the dilemma of engaging mormons in dialogue. they have extreme difficulty in the use of logic and reason. it does not matter what their prophet teaches. they believe it and reason and logic are irrelevant. in fact, the next prophet can teach the exact opposite and the faithful mormon has no doubts.

in all of the exchanges between mormons and others here at catholic answers, i have yet to read any that accomplished anything valuable to either side.

 

[twopekinguys]

No, you have failed, Christ hasn’t failed. Apostasy is a failure of man, not if God.

In order for mormonism to be valid in any way, it would mean that Christ left his church, which he explicitly states in scripture that he would not do.

There can be no need for a “restoration” if Christ never left his church.

Since mormonism says they are “restoring” Christ’s church, that would mean, A) Christ failed to protect his church. B) Christ purposely left his church.

Since neither of these things happened, mormonism fails as a “restoration”.

If we go a little further, mormonism says that the Church fell into apostasy after the death of the last Apostle. Since mormonism teaches that the Apostle John is still walking the Earth, mormonism fails again.

Now, onto the third issue. If mormonism is a “restoration”, why are there 9 versions of the first vision. Smith couldn’t even figure out who he was talking to, or the number of personages.

Since that throws into question the validity of the “first vision”, it also throws into question the validity of mormonism from day 1.

Do you want to keep going?

 

[NeuroTypical]

No, you have failed, Christ hasn’t failed. Apostasy is a failure of man, not if God.

Ok, can I just go on record here, and say I find this comment hugely distasteful?

You come to a Catholic board, run by Catholics, paid for by Catholics, and go into a forum mainly set up for Catholics to hear and learn about non-Catholic stuff, and you just idly float the notion that Catholicism is an apostate creation of man like you were telling someone what time it was?

What on earth do you hope to gain here mathonihah? Can I come into your house and take a big dump in the middle of your living room too?

When I first got here, I wondered why some posters seemed so touchy and reactionary to my very presence. I was being a good guest. Now I know - it’s the other mormons who show up here as guests and then insult their host.

 

[Stephen168]

No, you have failed, Christ hasn’t failed. Apostasy is a failure of man, not if God.

You refuse to investigate any reason for the truth of Mormonism; you base it on feelings and not facts. I would say you are in no position to make these claims.Feeling something is true does not make it true. I’m sure you’ve had at least one teacher demonstrate that for you.

The great thing about Catholic Christianity is we don’t depend on someone else’s failure to justify ourselves.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Ok, can I just go on record here, and say I find this comment hugely distasteful?

You come to a Catholic board, run by Catholics, paid for by Catholics, and go into a forum mainly set up for Catholics to hear and learn about non-Catholic stuff, and you just idly float the notion that Catholicism is an apostate creation of man like you were telling someone what time it was?

What on earth do you hope to gain here mathonihah? Can I come into your house and take a big dump in the middle of your living room too?

When I first got here, I wondered why some posters seemed so touchy and reactionary to my very presence. I was being a good guest. Now I know - it’s the other mormons who show up here as guests and then insult their host.

Well no, this isn’t the first LDS person to tell us this, but you can’t blame the messenger. It is, after all, canonized scripture for Mormons that the Catholic church, and all other churches not-Mormon, are an “abomination”.

So, it’s a bit disingenuous, I think anyway, to jump all over one of your own when they are expressing what they are taught by the church that you belong to.

 

[TexanKnight]

No, you have failed, Christ hasn’t failed. Apostasy is a failure of man, not if God.

Not true. An Apostasy means Christ failed. Christ did not keep His word. And Christ was weak

 

[TexanKnight]

I can believe it. Gaining a testimony was the greatest day of my life.

Yep…right up to the day I realized it was all based on lies. That was devastating

 

[mathonihah]

Well no, this isn’t the first LDS person to tell us this, but you can’t blame the messenger. It is, after all, canonized scripture for Mormons that the Catholic church, and all other churches not-Mormon, are an “abomination”.

So, it’s a bit disingenuous, I think anyway, to jump all over one of your own when they are expressing what they are taught by the church that you belong to.

Thank you RJ. I never thought I would agree with you on anything, but life is full of surprises!

However, I wouldn’t go so far as calling it an “abomination”. I don’t think that Christian churches are an “abomination”. Mormonism doesn’t teach that either. But it is true Mormon doctrine that early Christianity apostatized, and Mormonism is a restoration of the original Christian Church.

 

[eddie_too]

is not it kind of moronic for people to try an duplicate an organization that is a proven failure?

the mormons teach that the Church Jesus founded failed. then the mormons turn around and say let us re-start it. this begs the question, why do you want to re-start something that failed the first time?

 

[Stephen168]

But it is true Mormon doctrine that early Christianity apostatized, and Mormonism is a restoration of the original Christian Church.

We recently had a thread showing it is not true.

Joseph’s Smith teachings on exaltation, polygamy, baptism of the dead, and melchizedek priesthood are inventions not restoration.
Brigham Young’s claim that apostles are required to lead the Church, Adam was god the father, and blood atonement are inventions not a restoration.

Christ’s presence in the Eucharist was taught by Christ, the Apostles and the Catholic Church for 2000 years. It is the the consistent sign of the Christ’s Church which is not a Mormon teaching.

Mormonism is an invention not a restoration.

 

[TexanKnight]

Thank you RJ. I never thought I would agree with you on anything, but life is full of surprises!

However, I wouldn’t go so far as calling it an “abomination”. I don’t think that Christian churches are an “abomination”. Mormonism doesn’t teach that either. But it is true Mormon doctrine that early Christianity apostatized, and Mormonism is a restoration of the original Christian Church.

if only that were true…

 

[Nicea325]

Thank you RJ. I never thought I would agree with you on anything, but life is full of surprises!

However, I wouldn’t go so far as calling it an “abomination”. I don’t think that Christian churches are an “abomination”. Mormonism doesn’t teach that either. But it is true Mormon doctrine that early Christianity apostatized, and Mormonism is a restoration of the original Christian Church.

Mormonism is a restoration of the original Christian Church? Really? Honestly? With their wacky beliefs and wacky understanding of church history-they truly believe that is how the early church believed and practiced? Pure nonsense!

 

[Nicea325]

Not true. An Apostasy means Christ failed. Christ did not keep His word. And Christ was weak

Precisely why Mormons have an entire different God. Their God is a fabricated God and has no roots going back to the Jewish faith.

 

[kimg901]

Thank you RJ. I never thought I would agree with you on anything, but life is full of surprises!

However, I wouldn’t go so far as calling it an “abomination”. I don’t think that Christian churches are an “abomination”. Mormonism doesn’t teach that either. But it is true Mormon doctrine that early Christianity apostatized, and Mormonism is a restoration of the original Christian Church.

Smith said that in 1 of his visions. the 2 people that were there said “All churches are an abomination”. I will look for this and post it when I find it say that you may know this is what is taught and believed by your 1st prophet. Or do you not believe in what your 1st prophet said and did? And how can it be a restoration of the original church if what is taught has nothing to do with what was taught before and now?

 

[mathonihah]

is not it kind of moronic for people to try an duplicate an organization that is a proven failure?

the mormons teach that the Church Jesus founded failed. then the mormons turn around and say let us re-start it. this begs the question, why do you want to re-start something that failed the first time?

We think that the Restoration is an act of God, not of man. It was God who restored his Church after it had apostatized.

 

[mathonihah]

if only that were true…

What if it is?

 

[kimg901]

We think that the Restoration is an act of God, not of man. It was God who restored his Church after it had apostatized.

So God was wrong the first time? Thats the difference between us Catholics and mormons. Our God has no limitations where as your god does. Your god makes mistakes because he was once a man. Our God has no begining nor an end.

 

[Stephen168]

What if it is?

Science and history have already proven that is it not.

 

[SteveVH]

I believe you.

How did losing your testimony in the LDS church compare with your gaining of one in the Catholic Church?

I find your question interesting even though it is not addressed to me. One of the aspects of Catholicism that I find most reassuring is that one need not depend solely on an internal feeling in order to assess the validity and truth of one’s faith. Very simply, our history verifies our claims. It can be demonstrated that our doctrines are the doctrines of the earliest Church. And then, what really seals the deal is the experience of God’s grace found only the sacraments.

Yes, you might say that we have a testimony, but it runs much deeper than trusting our feelings. Feelings come and go and are influenced by many things, first and foremost our own desires. One who wants to feel a testimony will most likely feel it and convince themselves that it is from God. That is why we were given the gift of reason; to verify what is truth and what is not. When one’s beliefs contradict reason and historical fact it is time to reassess those beliefs which are born from our feelings. One does not encounter this dilemma in the Catholic Church. We do not just claim apostolic succession, we can demonstrate it. We do not just claim to have the same doctrines as the early Church, we can demonstrate it. Our testimony is backed up with verifiable proof.

I wish you the best on your journey.

God bless.

 

[mathonihah]

Mormonism is a restoration of the original Christian Church? Really? Honestly? With their wacky beliefs and wacky understanding of church history-they truly believe that is how the early church believed and practiced? Pure nonsense!

Smith said that in 1 of his visions. the 2 people that were there said “All churches are an abomination”. I will look for this and post it when I find it say that you may know this is what is taught and believed by your 1st prophet. Or do you not believe in what your 1st prophet said and did? And how can it be a restoration of the original church if what is taught has nothing to do with what was taught before and now?

So God was wrong the first time? Thats the difference between us Catholics and mormons. Our God has no limitations where as your god does. Your god makes mistakes because he was once a man. Our God has no begining nor an end.

Science and history have already proven that is it not.

I don’t really want to derail this thread by entering on a protracted debate on the Mormon doctrine of the Apostasy. If you want to debate that subject, it would be best to start a new thread.