Why would anyone want to be a Mormon or Jehovah Witnesses?

[mathonihah]

Bread and water symbolically sanctify? How is one symbolically sanctified? That doesn’t make sense.

I did not say that bread and water “symbolically sanctify”. I said that the bread and water ARE symbols of the flesh and blood of Christ. Two different things.

What does this mean? “As we worthily partake of the sanctified bread and water…”; from here: lds.org/manual/print/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-resource-manual/new-york-and-pennsylvania-period/doctrine-and-covenants-27?lang=eng

I would rather let the wording of the sacramental prayers answer that question:

“… bless and sanctify this bread TO the souls of all those who partake of it, THAT they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son …”

The sanctification takes place TO the souls of all those who partake of it THAT they may do it in remembrance of Jesus. The sanctification rebounds on us as we partake of the emblems in faith, and with the right intent (i.e. in remembrance of Jesus). The emblems are not sanctified in an of themselves. To suggest that emblems themselves are somehow sanctified in themselves is not far different from some understandings of Real Presence:

“Real Presence is a term used in various Christian traditions to express belief that in the Eucharist, Jesus Christ is really present in what was previously just bread and wine, and not merely present in symbol, a figure of speech (metaphorically, common amongst the Radical Reformers and their descendants), or by his power (dynamically), or by the grace of the Holy Spirit in the individual believer partaking of the species (pneumatically, common amongst Reformed believers).” Link

I understand that Mormons do not believe in the Real Presence, the same as the disciples in John 6, who said “this saying is hard”, and followed Jesus no more. I certainly don’t believe the Mormon sacrament does anything, so you don’t have to convince me.

As I said, some LDS understandings of “bless and sanctify” comes close to some Christian understandings of Real Presence, which is why I am disagreeing with it. John 6 is a different issue which can be discussed separately.

 

[CyndiTo411]

Can I pipe in?

Here are the main problems I have with the LDS church:

1. The fact that we can become god ourselves and eventually have our own planet (that is just too much like the Devil in the beginning when he wanted to be God).
2. Book of Abraham (people can actually read the hieroglyphs now and it’s not anywhere close to what Joseph Smith said it said)
3. The temple ceremony (no joke, first time I went through, I was scared. Not fear of the unknown, but fear like cult fear)
4. The 8 or 9 different versions of the “First Vision” ( which the earliest accounts are much different then the 1838 account that is used).
5. Garments ( why? Scriptural?)
6. The apostasy ( the explanation and even reasoning behind it…no idea. why would we even need one in the first place).
7. Women being subject to men always ( oh sure, you’ll become a goddess someday but you won’t be worshiped like your husband will be. You’ll just have to provide spirit children the whole time.)
8. Contradictions in the Doctrine. ( Changes of beliefs to fit the day)
9. Three God’s, One Godhead. Many other gods (Bible makes it very clear, One God)
10. Joseph Smith’s life ( …i think this is self explanatory)

 

[RebeccaJ]

I did not say that bread and water “symbolically sanctify”. I said that the bread and water ARE symbols of the flesh and blood of Christ. Two different things.

You believe symbols sanctify you. How does a symbol impart something not symbolic. If I have a picture of a pencil, can I write with it?

I would rather let the wording of the sacramental prayers answer that question:

“… bless and sanctify this bread TO the souls of all those who partake of it, THAT they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son …”

The sanctification takes place TO the souls of all those who partake of it THAT they may do it in remembrance of Jesus. The sanctification rebounds on us as we partake of the emblems in faith, and with the right intent (i.e. in remembrance of Jesus). The emblems are not sanctified in an of themselves.

you say one thing, your church’s website says another. Which opinion is correct?

To suggest that emblems themselves are somehow sanctified in themselves is not far different from some understandings of Real Presence:

“Real Presence is a term used in various Christian traditions to express belief that in the Eucharist, Jesus Christ is really present in what was previously just bread and wine, and not merely present in symbol, a figure of speech (metaphorically, common amongst the Radical Reformers and their descendants), or by his power (dynamically), or by the grace of the Holy Spirit in the individual believer partaking of the species (pneumatically, common amongst Reformed believers).” Link

As I said, some LDS understandings of “bless and sanctify” comes close to some Christian understandings of Real Presence, which is why I am disagreeing with it. John 6 is a different issue which can be discussed separately.

I don’t think you understand the doctrines of Real Presence. There is nothing symbolic or emblematic. The bread and wine are until the consecration, only bread and wine. No meaning to them at all, other than their properties of being the gifts that will become the Body and Blood of Christ.

 

[mathonihah]

I don’t think you understand the doctrines of Real Presence. There is nothing symbolic or emblematic. The bread and wine are until the consecration, only bread and wine. No meaning to them at all, other than their properties of being the gifts that will become the Body and Blood of Christ.

There is no one definition of Real Presence. The Catholic definition is not the only one. The quote I gave you shows you some of the varied definitions, depending on which Christian tradition you belong to.

 

[armyross]

Army, I am glad you have a Bible to consult. You may want to invest in a new one. I can tell from the quotes you are using that you are using the LDS version.

The New American Bible (Which the Roman Catholic Church prefers) quotes “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

King James Version of the Bible “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

As you can see, changing a single word can alter the meaning. Good Luck in your quest.

No you are wrong I got it all from Catholic online look it up on Face book

 

[TexanKnight]

I did not say that bread and water “symbolically sanctify”. I said that the bread and water ARE symbols of the flesh and blood of Christ. Two different things.

I would rather let the wording of the sacramental prayers answer that question:

“… bless and sanctify this bread TO the souls of all those who partake of it, THAT they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son …”

The sanctification takes place TO the souls of all those who partake of it THAT they may do it in remembrance of Jesus. The sanctification rebounds on us as we partake of the emblems in faith, and with the right intent (i.e. in remembrance of Jesus). The emblems are not sanctified in an of themselves. To suggest that emblems themselves are somehow sanctified in themselves is not far different from some understandings of Real Presence:

“Real Presence is a term used in various Christian traditions to express belief that in the Eucharist, Jesus Christ is really present in what was previously just bread and wine, and not merely present in symbol, a figure of speech (metaphorically, common amongst the Radical Reformers and their descendants), or by his power (dynamically), or by the grace of the Holy Spirit in the individual believer partaking of the species (pneumatically, common amongst Reformed believers).” Link

As I said, some LDS understandings of “bless and sanctify” comes close to some Christian understandings of Real Presence, which is why I am disagreeing with it. John 6 is a different issue which can be discussed separately.

Actually, John 6 is NOT a separate issue, unless, of course, you need it to nbe in order to follow a false prophet. Read it carefully…even followers left because it was a such a hard teaching. Will you be like them?

 

[TexanKnight]

Now, there is no need to continue dodging. Go address the plethora of versions of the first vision that I posted because you asked me to…

 

[armyross]

So, again, you call Jesus a liar when He said THIS IS MY BODY…

it is a real shame that, in order for your Church to be true, you must make Jesus a liar.

That’s because they have no real understanding of who Jesus is. They are to busy running around in there Joesph Jammies make up there lies to ever have the tru knowledge of what’s real and what man made CULT!!!

 

[RebeccaJ]

There is no one definition of Real Presence. The Catholic definition is not the only one. The quote I gave you shows you some of the varied definitions, depending on which Christian tradition you belong to.

It isn’t news to anyone here that Mormonism has some Protestant traits. But I think you should be cautious in your comparisons, as Mormonism redefines Christian terms to non-Christian meaning. Using the term “Real Presence”, and redefining it to mean a symbolic presence, may fly in your gospel doctrine class, it won’t here.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

You believe symbols sanctify you. How does a symbol impart something not symbolic. If I have a picture of a pencil, can I write with it?

The American flag is the symbol of our democracy. When you salute the flag you are instilled with the pride of being an American. I think that is what our Mormon friend is articulating about the symbolism of their bread and water?

 

[RebeccaJ]

The American flag is the symbol of our democracy. When you salute the flag you are instilled with the pride of being an American. I think that is what our Mormon friend is articulating about the symbolism of their bread and water?

Yes, but a feeling isn’t sanctification.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Yes, but a feeling isn’t sanctification.

I agree, but they might feel like it is. Something like the Holy Spirit.

 

[CyndiTo411]

There is no one definition of Real Presence. The Catholic definition is not the only one. The quote I gave you shows you some of the varied definitions, depending on which Christian tradition you belong to.

"So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.“As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.“This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.” John 6:53-58

Nowhere does Jesus say whoever eats of this symbol of my flesh. Jesus provided the one true definition of “real presence” when he said “for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.” To the human eye it is merely bread and wine but after consecration the bread becomes the true body of Christ and the wine the true blood. We have Jesus in the flesh every time we receive Holy communion!!! You must have very little faith if you cannot believe that the Lord doesn’t have enough power to give us his soul and divinity through the sacrament. Nothing worse than a blind man who doesn’t want to see.

 

[Nicea325]

mathonihah:
I did not say that bread and water “symbolically sanctify”. I said that the bread and water ARE symbols of the flesh and blood of Christ. Two different things

Yes…symbols to all those man-made sects,but NOT to Jesus the Son of God. Show me where Jesus says there are mere symbols? NO WHERE!

BTW: You never answered me:

At the Jewish Seder Meal did they eat actual tanglible foods (Lamb,wine, bitter herbs) or were they mere cookie cut-outs symbolizing those actual tanglible foods?

Do not be afraid…it is okay to admit you are wrong.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I agree, but they might feel like it is. Something like the Holy Spirit.

A flag does not make a person an American, any more than a plain piece of bread makes a person holy. A flag is not needed to be an American and a piece of plain piece of bread is not needed to bless a person.

I have no idea why LDS bother with bread and water at all.

 

[TexanKnight]

Yes…symbols to all those man-made sects,but NOT to Jesus the Son of God. Show me where Jesus says there are mere symbols? NO WHERE!

BTW: You never answered me:

At the Jewish Seder Meal did they eat actual tanglible foods (Lamb,wine, bitter herbs) or were they mere cookie cut-outs symbolizing those actual tanglible foods?

Do not be afraid…it is okay to admit you are wrong.

u huh

 

[SteveVH]

A flag does not make a person an American, any more than a plain piece of bread makes a person holy. A flag is not needed to be an American and a piece of plain piece of bread is not needed to bless a person.

I have no idea why LDS bother with bread and water at all.

And keep on mind it doesn’t even have to be bread and water. I remember having a conversation many months back with a Mormon who received saltine crackers and juice of some sort while in the hospital in place of bread and water. So, as far as a Mormon sacrament is concerned, not even the correct form seems to matter.

But I agree, what is the point of any of it and what in the heck is the point of the Mormon priesthood? I don’t think that they understand that the primary function of a priest is to offer sacrifice. A Christian priest offers the one sacrifice of Christ to the Father. Now if a Jew was to sacrifice a lamb in the temple, for instance, but instead made a drawing of a lamb on a piece of parchment instead and then burned it, does anyone think that his sacrifice would be pleasing to God? The Eucharist must be the body and blood of the Son of God or it is worthless. The Mormon “sacrament” is no sacrament at all.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And keep on mind it doesn’t even have to be bread and water. I remember having a conversation many months back with a Mormon who received saltine crackers and juice of some sort while in the hospital in place of bread and water. So, as far as a Mormon sacrament is concerned, not even the correct form seems to matter.

But I agree, what is the point of any of it and what in the heck is the point of the Mormon priesthood? I don’t think that they understand that the primary function of a priest is to offer sacrifice. A Christian priest offers the one sacrifice of Christ to the Father. Now if a Jew was to sacrifice a lamb in the temple, for instance, but instead made a drawing of a lamb on a piece of parchment instead and then burned it, does anyone think that his sacrifice would be pleasing to God? The Eucharist must be the body and blood of the Son of God or it is worthless. The Mormon “sacrament” is no sacrament at all.

Yes, I read a post on another forum where a Mormon guy was bragging about using Sprite and Ritz crackers. I really just don’t get it. Sprite and Ritz crackers helps a person think of Jesus? But crosses are bad?

Every now and then Mormonism gives me the impression of children playing school.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Yes, I read a post on another forum where a Mormon guy was bragging about using Sprite and Ritz crackers. I really just don’t get it. Sprite and Ritz crackers helps a person think of Jesus? But crosses are bad?

Every now and then Mormonism gives me the impression of children playing school.

I remember us using Necco wafers for pretend hosts when I was a kid. Something like that?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I remember us using Necco wafers for pretend hosts when I was a kid. Something like that?

LOL.