Why would God create a universe with even the possibility of eternal evil?

[Iron_Donkey]

As long as we have the ability to choose to put on our right shoe first before the left one - we do have free will.

That’s kind of a lame version of free will, isn’t it? Does the ability to put my left shoe on before my right really make that much difference? This is the same kind of “free will” an electron has when it “chooses” whether to be spin up or spin down. And we, justifiably, do not consider electrons as free beings.

It is kind of hard to nail down God’s motivation for doing something, since He is on a completely different level from us. We can say God created us out of love, which is true, but trying to understand beyond that is difficult. It would be easier for an ant to understand why the humans congregate in large specially designed rooms just to be in the presences of a particular sound pattern. The ant might realize in whatever way it can that we like doing so based off the fact that we do it repeatedly, but that’d be about it.

What we can do is is show that nothing we know about God logically prohibits Him from doing so. Which has been done repeatedly. In short: God is not responsible for choices made by free creatures - that’s what “free” means. Likewise, the existence of Hell is not evil, the fact that we continually send ourselves there by refusing to follow God is. Hell is just a logical necessity of any kind of meaningful free will - an ability to choose or reject God.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

[on the idea that people choose to remain in Hell]
Impossible. We all abhor pain. Think about those poor humans who are torturted into “confession” of their “misdeeds”. When the pain becomes too much to endure, you WILL confess anything to stop the pain.

Thinking of hell as a standard torture chamber for dead people does not work. That is not what hell is. It is a metaphor that is used because Hell is not pleasant.

A person in Hell is a person who died in a state of abhorring God. There is no time after death, how you are at that point is how you remain in “eternity” - which is better described as an “eternal now”. Such a person would see the barest glimpse of God and flee the other way, because God is directly opposed to all that that person stands for. The only way to “escape” God is Hell, but escaping from God is escaping from all that is good - and going into all that is bad: pain and torment, etc. The person in Hell is separating himself from anything worth having at all, because he doesn’t want to recognize that compared to God he is nothing, that without God he would be nothing, and that God is the source of anything worth having.

Hell is, in a sense, the result of ultimate pride.

 

[Spock]

That’s kind of a lame version of free will, isn’t it?

Lame? Why is it “lame”? Free will is dependant on three “legs”. 1) We wish to achieve a result. 2) There are at least two ways to achieve that result. 3) We have the locus of decision to make to achieve that result. That is all what is needed to have “free wiil”.

Does the ability to put my left shoe on before my right really make that much difference?

Not relevant. If there at least one choice we can make freely - we have free will. That is what counts.

What we can do is is show that nothing we know about God logically prohibits Him from doing so. Which has been done repeatedly. In short: God is not responsible for choices made by free creatures - that’s what “free” means.

Actually, God has the ULTIMATE responsibility for our actions - since he gave us the freedom to act.

Likewise, the existence of Hell is not evil, the fact that we continually send ourselves there by refusing to follow God is. Hell is just a logical necessity of any kind of meaningful free will - an ability to choose or reject God.

This is sheer nonsense. I do NOT reject God, i simply do not believe in God, and I do NOT believe that humans (including the Catholic Church) can speak FOR God. If God would wish to put down the “do’s” and “don’t’s” for us, he must come to us DIRECTLY and not through the Church… which is nothing but a human concoction.

 

[Spock]

Thinking of hell as a standard torture chamber for dead people does not work. That is not what hell is. It is a metaphor that is used because Hell is not pleasant.

A person in Hell is a person who died in a state of abhorring God. There is no time after death, how you are at that point is how you remain in “eternity” - which is better described as an “eternal now”. Such a person would see the barest glimpse of God and flee the other way, because God is directly opposed to all that that person stands for. The only way to “escape” God is Hell, but escaping from God is escaping from all that is good - and going into all that is bad: pain and torment, etc. The person in Hell is separating himself from anything worth having at all, because he doesn’t want to recognize that compared to God he is nothing, that without God he would be nothing, and that God is the source of anything worth having.

Hell is, in a sense, the result of ultimate pride.

I wonder, how are you going to prove this? Have you actually been there? You are not in the position to make these propositions - unless you have been there and brought back a videotape to prove it. What you say is contradicted by the Bible. Read it.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Not relevant. If there at least one choice we can make freely - we have free will. That is what counts.

Actually, no. What makes you say that? And what do you mean by “counts”?

Actually, God has the ULTIMATE responsibility for our actions - since he gave us the freedom to act.

In that we would not have acted if God had not made us - yes. In that God bares moral culpability for what we did - no. The company that makes a kitchen knife is not morally responsible for the domestic murder carried out with it. The company had nothing to do with the decision. Doubtless it was aware of the possibility, and doubtless it made the knife despite this fact. But the knife was made for a different purpose and some messy free will thing the company does not control is what decided to put it to a different one.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I wonder, how are you going to prove this? Have you actually been there? You are not in the position to make these propositions - unless you have been there and brought back a videotape to prove it.

The cry for proof again? If you’re going to take this argument all the way back to proving the existence of God, we’re gonna be here a while. What I have presented is, as best I understand it and as I see it, the teaching of the Church on the matter. Since we’re talking about Hell from a Catholic point of view, that’s the best you’re going to get without going off topic.

What you say is contradicted by the Bible. Read it.

In fact no, it is not. Read the Catechism etc, which was written by a the Church given the authority to interpret the bible. Your interpretation is not binding on anyone in particular. I am curious as to where you find the contradictions though

 

[Spock]

Actually, no. What makes you say that? And what do you mean by “counts”?

Counts = important.

In that we would not have acted if God had not made us - yes. In that God bares moral culpability for what we did - no. The company that makes a kitchen knife is not morally responsible for the domestic murder carried out with it. The company had nothing to do with the decision. Doubtless it was aware of the possibility, and doubtless it made the knife despite this fact. But the knife was made for a different purpose and some messy free will thing the company does not control is what decided to put it to a different one.

Incorrect analogy. The company that makes the knoves does not know what the knife will be used for. That lack of knowlege is the factor that relieves it of the culpability. God does not have that mitigating factor - according to Christianity.

 

[vsedriver]

I do sometimes think Hell could be a lot, lot “emptier” than many people think. Some people may reject God even knowing that he is there and loves us, but I have a hard time thinking that many people would make that choice.

some people have a great capacity to hate and to do evil. It’s a concept very hard for those who are not steeped in evil to comprehend.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Counts = important.

Incorrect analogy. The company that makes the knoves does not know what the knife will be used for. That lack of knowlege is the factor that relieves it of the culpability. God does not have that mitigating factor - according to Christianity.

The lack of knowledge is not what makes them innocent. It is the fact that they do not cause the choice to be made. A company that makes home defense weapons is not culpable should such a weapon make its way into the hands of a murderer. This will, with certainty, occasionally happen.

And important in what way? Why is it that the ability to use puffs or puffs plus is just as notable as total free will?

 

[Spock]

The lack of knowledge is not what makes them innocent. It is the fact that they do not cause the choice to be made. A company that makes home defense weapons is not culpable should such a weapon make its way into the hands of a murderer. This will, with certainty, occasionally happen.

Nope. It you KNOW that the instrument you make WILL be used for some nefarious purposes, and you STILL make it, then you must assume the ultimate (even if not the immediate) responsibility for the action committed. If you would not make it, it could not be used at all. That is the point…

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Nope. It you KNOW that the instrument you make WILL be used for some nefarious purposes, and you STILL make it, then you must assume the ultimate (even if not the immediate) responsibility for the action committed. If you would not make it, it could not be used at all. That is the point…

Let’s put it this way. If you make 1,000,000 home defense guns, and one of them is used for a murder, (which you know WILL happen), then you are not responsible. If you know which gun it will be, and so don’t send that gun to the store then… a different gun will probably end up being used to the same purpose. Probably from a human’s perspective, God would know for sure, and could (and probably does) use that knowledge in his plan. But in the end, the only way to make sure that your guns don’t contribute to any murders at all is to not make any - but then your guns don’t save the lives of any home owners either. So as a gun manufacturer, you make a choice. (God’s motivation for creating us does not fit well into this analogy, obviously, but I think most of the rest does.)

Also, I think I may have edited this into my last post while you were responding to it, so in case that did occur: why is it that the sort of weaker free will to just decide what order to put your shoes on is the important thing? Important for what?

 

[catholic1seeks]

God is perfectly good in and of himself. How then is it compatible with God’s perfect goodness to create a universe with a significant probability of eternal evil? The eternal evil I speak of is that of Satan, demons, and damned humans.

Think of it the comparison between these two worlds:

1. Only God exists. This world has infinite goodness and no possibility for evil.
2. God and free creatures exist. This world has infinite goodness but also the possibility for eternal damnation and evil.

No more goodness can be attained by creating. Only the possibility of evil is added.

The eternal evil to which you refer to is no match compared to the infinte Good God.
Remember, the demons and damned humans are finite. Though hell is eternal, its punishments are not inifinte.

If number 1 were true, than no person, human or angel, would be able to enjoy God’s goodness. But because God is love and doesn’t need anything else, he created out of love to allow us to decide whether we wanted to share in his own Goodness or not.

The ultimate question is why did God create? That is the love of God: he allows us to choose good or evil.

Also, evil is the absence of Good. It’s not a thing. It’s not as if God created a bunch of +'s and -'s. Rather, we have the choice to accept or not accept the + (the goodness.) And God is in no way affected by evil.

 

[Julia_Mae]

And on another note, I don’t see how we are free to choose hell. We have no knowledge of the immensity of the horror of hell (or no knowledge of being completely separated from God), and we cannot freely choose that which we do not know.

It’s just like saying “I didn’t know what it was like to weigh 1200 pounds and not be able to walk or get out of bed, I just wanted to eat chocolate and nothing else!”

You choose hell every time you make a choice in action that is against the will of God. It’s free will. And we have the innate ability to tell good from evil in our actions, to understand love and it’s opposite.

 

[Anthony_V]

And on another note, I don’t see how we are free to choose hell. We have no knowledge of the immensity of the horror of hell (or no knowledge of being completely separated from God), and we cannot freely choose that which we do not know.

Then you ought to pray that you might never know the horror. Faith is a wonderful gift.

We’ve never experienced Heaven either. Does that mean we are incapable of going there also?

 

[Julia_Mae]

Originally Posted by Pfaffenhoffen

Not only possible, but we see it every day.

Problem with non-believers is they argue against a symbol as if it were real, when they don’t believe any of it is real, and so do not even try to understand what is being said. So I am going to tell you exactly how this works and then you can argue against what I say, if you can figure out how to do that.

We are not speaking literally of taking a person in the physical body and using a blow torch on them. We are speaking of a state of being devoid of light, love, joy or comfort. You can understand all things if you understand the way things work around you. Here is a true story that will enlighten you as to the way things work:

Fred and george (not real names) leave college at 21 and go to Las Vegas to make their fortune as professional poker players. They are, according to Fred, pretty much equally adept. They both do very well when they start out which means they suddenly have a great deal of money and are in, well, vegas. Fast living ensues.

Fred realizes that his lifestyle is interfering with his goal which is to be a professional poker player and his early success has made him believe he can be one of the best and sit at the highest limits at the most exclusive table. But - that’s going to take changing his ways, which he does.

George does not. George goes broke and starts hitting up Fred for money. Fred just moved up in limits and says, no, he can’t risk his bankroll which is his working capital in his business which is himself. He offers George a place to crash if he wants to get serious about poker again and a small stake so he can work his way up, too.

George calls him a bunch of names and leaves. End of friendship. Fred doesn’t see George for a long time, hears some stories about him and drugs, but Fred is still moving up and ends up as one of the more successful players and is taking shots at the highest limit game.

One day, Fred is driving through a rather seedier area of town and sees George who is panhandling. Fred, who is in a very expensive car and has his buy-in money in a baggie in the glove box, which is like, 100k in chips then, feel horrible. He stops and tries to talk to George to see if he h can help his old friend Offers to get him a motel room for a month and some help. Maybe he’d like to play again,he was really talented, s and so forth. Fred could still stake him after he got his act together.

George is living in hell, basically. Guess what George said when Fred basically threw open the door sand said “Come out?”

If I wrote it here, they’d ban me. Fred is one of the greatest guys you could ever meet. He wasn’t judgmental or anything as far as I know. He just wanted to help and he could. He had no idea George was so badly off. When he saw, he reached out.

Know who George blamed for his life being so hellish? Yup. Fred.

This is exactly how people choose hell. It’s a process. By the time they pass they hate God, blame Him for everything, and have made so many choices that separate themselves from Him, their lives are so devoid of light and joy and comfort, they are just used to it. They become part of hell before they ever get there. The only thing missing in this story is George mugging a wino weaker than himself for what’s left in his bottle. Add that, and the story is complete. Plenty of people choose pain.

The most dangerous thing you can believe is that your life is not eternal. It is. You will never die, only bodies die. I suggest factoring that into your life choices.

For Fred, heaven was a seat at the Big Game. He could get there, but he’d have to sacrifice hookers and blow and 24 hour partying, essentially the immediate pleasures for the long term grind of making his way to where he wanted to be. When he lost sight of his goal, he almost got lost himself. Once he remembered where he wanted to be, it wasn’t much of a sacrifice.

 

[Spock]

Let’s put it this way. If you make 1,000,000 home defense guns, and one of them is used for a murder, (which you know WILL happen), then you are not responsible.

Actually, you don’t KNOW it. What you call here “knowledge” is merely a very plausible assumption, a very likely event, but not certain, absolute, 100% knowldege. But that is not the real reason for the responsibility. The gun manufacturers, are ULTIMATELY responsible for every murder committed with their guns. It was their decisions to put out the guns, it is their responsibilty for the misuse.

Mind you, they are not criminally responsible for an individual murder, BUT ONLY because the manufacturers do not have the power, the knowledge and the resources to put a guard onto each and every gun owner - unlike God does. This is one of those scenarios, where the analogy to try to whitewash God simply fails. God’s knowledge is absolute, God’s power is absolute (unlike the gun manufacturer) and as such God is absolutely responsible for all the misdeeds of every human.

This is clearly expressed in the Catholic dogma, too. See the Dogmas:

1. God keeps all created things in existence. (De fide.)
2. God co-operates immediately in every act of His creatures. (Sent. communis.)

Which clearly states that God actively participates in every human action, murders included.

 

[Spock]

Also, I think I may have edited this into my last post while you were responding to it, so in case that did occur: why is it that the sort of weaker free will to just decide what order to put your shoes on is the important thing? Important for what?

I missed it, indeed. And I am not saying that any “free will” is important. As a constructor myself, I would never give “free will” to any of my creations (computer programs). But for some reason people around here insist that “free will” is something awesome, wonderful and MUST be there. My reply to them: if you have the freedom to make any choice, there is already free will. There is no logical need to extend that freedom into committing murders, etc… Mind you, our “free will” is not absolute. We are always constrained by our physical limitations. Important to point out: “free will” is the same as the “free ability to carry out one’s desires”.

Again, as a constructor, I consider any kind of “free will” a dumb choice of the constructor’s part. And if that “free will” is free enough to distort the intent of the creator, then it is not just dumb, but horribly stupid. Consider:

1. God is the constructor, with all his super-duper attributes.
2. God wishes to create the world, where everyone is “saved” (meaning without sin).
3. God gives the ability to humans to make free selections which will destroy the intended world. Due to the “original sin” not everyone is saved any more, and also the “goodness” of the world is destroyed.
4. God could have created a world without sin, and even give the people freedom - but not the freedom to destroy his creation.

This is what you, Catholics teach. In essence you teach that God is an idiot, who could have created the world he intended, but did not. No matter what I could say about God would be as disrespectful and demeaning to God, than what you, the believers say about him. Don’t you see the irony?

 

[FurtherSuntime]

…

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Not only possible, but we see it every day.

Problem with non-believers is they argue against a symbol as if it were real, when they don’t believe any of it is real, and so do not even try to understand what is being said. So I am going to tell you exactly how this works and then you can argue against what I say, if you can figure out how to do that.

We are not speaking literally of taking a person in the physical body and using a blow torch on them. We are speaking of a state of being devoid of light, love, joy or comfort. You can understand all things if you understand the way things work around you. Here is a true story that will enlighten you as to the way things work:

Fred and george (not real names) leave college at 21 and go to Las Vegas to make their fortune as professional poker players. They are, according to Fred, pretty much equally adept. They both do very well when they start out which means they suddenly have a great deal of money and are in, well, vegas. Fast living ensues.

Fred realizes that his lifestyle is interfering with his goal which is to be a professional poker player and his early success has made him believe he can be one of the best and sit at the highest limits at the most exclusive table. But - that’s going to take changing his ways, which he does.

George does not. George goes broke and starts hitting up Fred for money. Fred just moved up in limits and says, no, he can’t risk his bankroll which is his working capital in his business which is himself. He offers George a place to crash if he wants to get serious about poker again and a small stake so he can work his way up, too.

George calls him a bunch of names and leaves. End of friendship. Fred doesn’t see George for a long time, hears some stories about him and drugs, but Fred is still moving up and ends up as one of the more successful players and is taking shots at the highest limit game.

One day, Fred is driving through a rather seedier area of town and sees George who is panhandling. Fred, who is in a very expensive car and has his buy-in money in a baggie in the glove box, which is like, 100k in chips then, feel horrible. He stops and tries to talk to George to see if he h can help his old friend Offers to get him a motel room for a month and some help. Maybe he’d like to play again,he was really talented, s and so forth. Fred could still stake him after he got his act together.

George is living in hell, basically. Guess what George said when Fred basically threw open the door sand said “Come out?”

If I wrote it here, they’d ban me. Fred is one of the greatest guys you could ever meet. He wasn’t judgmental or anything as far as I know. He just wanted to help and he could. He had no idea George was so badly off. When he saw, he reached out.

Know who George blamed for his life being so hellish? Yup. Fred.

This is exactly how people choose hell. It’s a process. By the time they pass they hate God, blame Him for everything, and have made so many choices that separate themselves from Him, their lives are so devoid of light and joy and comfort, they are just used to it. They become part of hell before they ever get there. The only thing missing in this story is George mugging a wino weaker than himself for what’s left in his bottle. Add that, and the story is complete. Plenty of people choose pain.

The most dangerous thing you can believe is that your life is not eternal. It is. You will never die, only bodies die. I suggest factoring that into your life choices.

For Fred, heaven was a seat at the Big Game. He could get there, but he’d have to sacrifice hookers and blow and 24 hour partying, essentially the immediate pleasures for the long term grind of making his way to where he wanted to be. When he lost sight of his goal, he almost got lost himself. Once he remembered where he wanted to be, it wasn’t much of a sacrifice.

fred is the devil himself to be most sure. Poor George. Poor George for doing everything he can to escape the lifestyle… which for him and his personality, drew out bad naughty things.

Not good enough for fred though, fred enjoys the company of watching George fall apart and wants him BACK IN THE GAME, in order to look like a big shot by comparison.

Poor George perseveres in his quest to stay away from the shadowy life. Struggling in addictions I suppose, awful living conditions, no friends most likely and who appears, fred the devil in his big shot limo trying to entice poor George to return to that which CAUSED ALL OF IT>
Creating a story & getting it backwards is all part and parcel of those who enjoy pointing the finger out of insecurity.

 

[Spock]

We are not speaking literally of taking a person in the physical body and using a blow torch on them. We are speaking of a state of being devoid of light, love, joy or comfort. You can understand all things if you understand the way things work around you. Here is a true story that will enlighten you as to the way things work:

No one said that is… except maybe Jesus? He spoke about the fire that is not quenched and worm which eats your flesh… read the Bible lately? And don’t tell me that the words of Jesus need to be “interpreted”. They are crystal clear, also corroborated by some “saints”. But, let’s say that it is not physical torture what is happening there. Whatever it is, it is the worst thing imaginable. And you think that people will cling to their misery, pain, hopelessness, and do not want to get out? Get real.

Your little parable is as misguided as it can be.

George is living in hell, basically. Guess what George said when Fred basically threw open the door sand said “Come out?”

If I wrote it here, they’d ban me.

Nonsense. Only a literally insane person would reject help.

This is exactly how people choose hell. It’s a process.

Another nonsense. People are thrown into hell by God, for simply giving in to innocent pleasure of having sex for its own sake, where the only aim is expressing their mutual love, by giving and receiving mutual pleasure (making sure that no conception occurs) - at least according to the Catholic Church. People are also thrown into hell for simply not believing in God, who neglected to give a crystal clear, tangible proof for his existence, for everyone to see. Also God never gave out an exhaustive, authoritative and signed list of do’s and don’t’s of expected behavior. (If you think that he did, and it is the Bible, you are seriously mistaken.) So people are kept in the dark (like those proverbial mushrooms). No information is given what to do and what not to do. And when they violate some unwritten rule, they are being punished forever(!) for their act. Never mind that the act never hurt anyone. And this is how you think God behaves? As I said… get real. No matter what I would say about God, it would not be as insulting as your description of God.

By the way… look at the response by FurtherSuntime, who misunderstood your little parable, by thinking that Fred is the devil, and not God. That is how ridiculous your little parable happened to turn out.