Why would God create angels if He knew hell would come into existence?

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fabio_rocha

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Please read this article first:
500questions.wordpress.com/2014/08/03/56-why-did-god-create-satan/

To think: if you KNEW your future child would FREELY choose to torture and kill millions of people, would you STILL choose to conceive this child? Why would people blame you for the evil your child has freely chosen to commit? It’s because you knew what would happen, and you chose to conceive him anyway.

How would you square this one?
 
I would prayerfully read St. Thomas Aquinas

newadvent.org/summa/1049.htm

And also, I think that answering the Problem of Evil depends first on faith.

In one section of the article he says something like “just saying that we don’t know and everything will be explained later could work for any religious belief”…which I guess is true, but you have to take it in context with everything else that you believe.

Faith comes from trust and experience. If you do not trust the church because of your experience, there are bigger problems than trying to explain Satan’s existence.

I do not trust, say, Islam, so I would not have faith when they say “everything will be explained later.”

I have faith that the Church is the Earthly body of Christ, so when they say we know what we’re talking about, it is my duty to accept, because I don’t have a choice; It is part of my faith.
 
God is Truth. that is, all that is true, is the Greater Reality.
God’s spirit within the human organism is true. The soul is a gift from God that has been allowed to perish if the mind of the organism allows it to.
Therefore it is true at first but God allows that part of Truth to change into an untruth.

In the End, all that is true (soul-wise) stays imperishable.
Other truths that make up the Truth is imperishable.
Our observable universe is perishable, but its Source/God, the uncreated light, is imperishable.
Humans are part of that the universe and are perishable, only the soul’s truth is imperishable.

What is imperishable is Truth, what is untrue, is an illusion, a ‘worldly’ deception and perishable. Satan, and what is evil, operate in this perishable ‘world’.
In comparison to the Greater Reality, the ‘world’ is unreal. In comparison to this ‘world’ and any part of the soul that is not true, is real, though it is unreal.
That is why only what is truth in the soul remains as a Truth.

The path to God is very very narrow. It is a path that has NO stories about THIS realm, only about Divinity.
 
Since God not only knows the future but can interact with with the past through the future (in prophecy), then the reason for allowing people to exist who will be damned comes down to these three
  1. To give those beings at the least the chance to be saved, even He knows they will fail. The moment of grace and decision is what counts
  2. Allowing them to fall will let his justice’s shine to come through
  3. Some people can only be saved if others fall and these ones God truly desires to exist
These three reasons together seems to exonerate God of blame in the fall of the angels
 
Anony_Mous said:
God is Truth. that is, all that is true, is the Greater Reality.
God’s spirit within the human organism is true. The soul is a gift from God that has been allowed to perish if the mind of the organism allows it to.
Therefore it is true at first but God allows that part of Truth to change into an untruth.

In the End, all that is true (soul-wise) stays imperishable.
Other truths that make up the Truth is imperishable.
Our observable universe is perishable, but its Source/God, the uncreated light, is imperishable.
Humans are part of that the universe and are perishable, only the soul’s truth is imperishable.

What is imperishable is Truth, what is untrue, is an illusion, a ‘worldly’ deception and perishable. Satan, and what is evil, operate in this perishable ‘world’.
In comparison to the Greater Reality, the ‘world’ is unreal. In comparison to this ‘world’ and any part of the soul that is not true, is real, though it is unreal.
That is why only what is truth in the soul remains as a Truth.

The path to God is very very narrow. It is a path that has NO stories about THIS realm, only about Divinity.
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The Catholic Church does not teach that the material world is an illusion, or that our bodies are not important. Body and spirit are one and to be technical a soul is an individual comprised of a body and spirit. God created us in His image, which yes, does include our bodies, which doesn’t sound right, but is one of the Divine mysteries. Jesus came into our world as one of us, with a body like our own and the hands and feet of that body were nailed to a cross in a very real, physical sense.

And, Revelation says that at the end of time, the righteous who have died will be united once again to their bodies.

That is not to say that our focus should not primarily be on our spiritual selves though, because that is of course, the part of us that no matter what we do, will most certainly go on forever.
 
I don’t think I want to know. I know that God has His reasons and that is good enough for me.
 
My post (#4) doesn’t take all mystery away from the question. Since God is good, it must be so that He couldn’t have made this world without sin or pain, because then even if they serve a purpose it would have been wrong for him to create the lesser world with these evils
 
ChibiViolet said:
…God created us in His image, which yes, does include our bodies, which doesn’t sound right, but is one of the Divine mysteries…
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Image is not just what we humans see. God is Truth and God’'s image is His Conscience of what is Truth.
We are created with His Conscience so as to discernment between truth and untruth, between right and wrong.
It is how we discern that gets recorded into our soul as beliefs of what is truth or untruth. This becomes the soul’s reason (thinking) and it will be judged on the Day. And if the soul is found to become a slave to the flesh, it too will die with the flesh.
**Matthew 10:26 ** "So do not be afraid of them (non believers). There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known… 28. “Do not be afraid of those (non believers) who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One (Truth) who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Yes, the body and soul is one, but how much soul has become reason for the body (flesh) as opposed to reason for Spirit? On the Day, the truth will be revealed. If the soul has lost itself to the body, it has lost itself in hell.
**Matthew 16:26 **“What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?”
 
fabio_rocha said:
Please read this article first:
500questions.wordpress.com/2014/08/03/56-why-did-god-create-satan/

To think: if you KNEW your future child would FREELY choose to torture and kill millions of people, would you STILL choose to conceive this child? Why would people blame you for the evil your child has freely chosen to commit? It’s because you knew what would happen, and you chose to conceive him anyway.

How would you square this one?
Click to expand...
God created you didn’t he? Are you good?

God created the angels because God is love. His omnipotent power brought them into existence. You do not understand because you do not know that to understand God you must first know who he is. And, firstly, he is love. Therefore, everything God does is because of love. Have you not heard that all things work together for the good of those who love God? Can you prove that God does not have morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil to exist in the world? Imagine if he hadn’t made the angels then perhaps humans would not have been made either, and you wouldn’t exist. Since God would have known that some humans would have chosen to do evil. So if he wouldn’t make the angels for the same reasons then he wouldn’t have made man either for the same reasons. Yet,all things God created he called good. Even the devil God created good. So, do you think it would have been better than if God had not created anything and then you would not have existed? How, would that have been better? Is it not better to exist? Even, if it means that there is a possibility of doing evil? We learn to do good in this life through the power of the Holy Spirit. A greater glory in heaven is now possible. For God became one of us and lifted man’s dignity. God bless.
 
fabio_rocha said:
Please read this article first:
500questions.wordpress.com/2014/08/03/56-why-did-god-create-satan/

To think: if you KNEW your future child would FREELY choose to torture and kill millions of people, would you STILL choose to conceive this child? Why would people blame you for the evil your child has freely chosen to commit? It’s because you knew what would happen, and you chose to conceive him anyway.

How would you square this one?
Click to expand...
This is a version of the an old argument for God to avoid creating anyone who is going to do evil since he knows all. Therefore since he can’t or won’t, then God is either weak or cruel. Therefore there is no God.

What a way to speak of our dear God who gave us life out of his desire to share his love and happiness.

Why is it so easy to blame God and not ourselves? So Hitler is not to blame any more, but rather God. Poor Hitler just didn’t know what he was doing because he had a poor childhood, or bumped his head, or just had a bad day. Com’on now. He is the one who did it, so why not put the blame where it belongs. God gave Hitler a good body and a good soul just like everyone else in this world. And with this he had the ability to choose just like everyone else.

And the old argument of “it is God’s responsibility” not to make him because he is bad, dosen’t hold water. If that were the case, none of us would be created for all of us sin. But then it could be countered “yes, but just the real bad boys”. Really? And so now we are engaged in a “bad” thermometer. And who is to make this “bad” thermometer? “Can’t please everyone” is the rule. So now we are back to square one.

It is simple and true to say, that the person who does the evil is to blame. Yet don’t we always look for someone else to blame? Why not put the blame where it belongs…those who do evil … you and me.

And if God were to uncreate the “bad” guys, wouldn’t that be condemning them even before the fact? Is that what our law does…condemn them before even doing the criminal act? Then the next argument goes, “how cruel of God to determine this before the fact.” God is always the loser isn’t he? But the fact is, God is not on trial for doing good
or creating good, but rather man is on trial for taking the good and perverting it into evil.
 
fred_conty said:
This is a version of the an old argument for God to avoid creating anyone who is going to do evil since he knows all. Therefore since he can’t or won’t, then God is either weak or cruel. Therefore there is no God.

What a way to speak of our dear God who gave us life out of his desire to share his love and happiness.

Why is it so easy to blame God and not ourselves? So Hitler is not to blame any more, but rather God. Poor Hitler just didn’t know what he was doing because he had a poor childhood, or bumped his head, or just had a bad day. Com’on now. He is the one who did it, so why not put the blame where it belongs. God gave Hitler a good body and a good soul just like everyone else in this world. And with this he had the ability to choose just like everyone else.

And the old argument of “it is God’s responsibility” not to make him because he is bad, dosen’t hold water. If that were the case, none of us would be created for all of us sin. But then it could be countered “yes, but just the real bad boys”. Really? And so now we are engaged in a “bad” thermometer. And who is to make this “bad” thermometer? “Can’t please everyone” is the rule. So now we are back to square one.

It is simple and true to say, that the person who does the evil is to blame. Yet don’t we always look for someone else to blame? Why not put the blame where it belongs…those who do evil … you and me.

And if God were to uncreate the “bad” guys, wouldn’t that be condemning them even before the fact? Is that what our law does…condemn them before even doing the criminal act? Then the next argument goes, “how cruel of God to determine this before the fact.” God is always the loser isn’t he? But the fact is, God is not on trial for doing good
or creating good, but rather man is on trial for taking the good and perverting it into evil.
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That the sin falls on the sinner is not a premise which leads to the conclusion, without other considerations, that God should have created him
 
thinkandmull said:
That the sin falls on the sinner is not a premise which leads to the conclusion, without other considerations, that God should have created him
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Ok … I will give another consideration. Just for the moment, let’s say I’m God.

Since I know all, I know that there is going to be a very bad guy. In consideration of that I won’t create him.

Ah…but if I don’t create him, then I, as God, know that his son who will be a great man, will not be created. His son will spread good to all nations, making peace among nations for thousand’s of years. And it will be a totally wonderful civilized and good world that all men will come to love and appreciate.

So if I don’t create this very bad guy, then all the good for generations to come won’t happen. And the world that everyone wants will be missed.

This is not an exaggeration, and may be multiplied thousands of times. For good sons do come from bad parents.

So that argument about God eliminating all the bad guys from being created doesn’t hold water … for that consideration.

And who can guarantee that they have not come from the line of some very bad guys. And you know what that means … bye bye.
 
I think this question is easily solved when you examine the assumption behind the objection.

The assumption seems to be that the devil ultimately impedes human fulfillment. The devil doesn’t do this: the devil doesn’t “send” anyone to hell.

The article you site says:
Satan will tempt the humans into sinning, do a bunch of evil, and try to steal their souls.
Click to expand...
The devil doesn’t steal souls. Does the work to lead others astray? Yes. But any individual person in hell is there because of that person’s free consent. Any “temptation,” actually, lessens culpability; temptations – or anything that tends one toward an objectively evil act (such as emotions/passions, personality, addictions) – affects the freedom of an individual. Traditional Catholic moral theology would say that one cannot commit such a mortal sin unless the person commits the act with full knowledge and freedom.

Whether or not the fallen angels fell would have no bearing on the fact that sin is within the will.

OK.

So then what about the alleged physical evils caused by the devil?

First off, it would seem much of the “physical evil” in the Universe is built within the very fabric of the Universe: The world is finite; earthquakes and sickness are not seen as coming from the devil per se. So the question really is the problem of evil and suffering in general.

The gist of it all boils down to this selection from the article:
If God knew Satan would become evil, and chose to create him anyway (as opposed to skipping him and creating a different angel, or creating him with different desires, or not creating anything at all), God is responsible for the consequences.
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Well, God *is *responsible for the consequences of Satan… but in what sense? Only this: That God, the source of all beings – He Who Is BEING itself – sustains the Devil, a free creature, and his existence. But as a free creature, the devil is culpable for the free, evil acts he commits. Not God.
 
fabio_rocha said:
Please read this article first:
500questions.wordpress.com/2014/08/03/56-why-did-god-create-satan/

To think: if you KNEW your future child would FREELY choose to torture and kill millions of people, would you STILL choose to conceive this child? Why would people blame you for the evil your child has freely chosen to commit? It’s because you knew what would happen, and you chose to conceive him anyway.

How would you square this one?
Click to expand...
The question assumes predestination - that satin was created BY GOD to be evil. Instead, God gave satin (and all of his higher creatures) a chance to contribute to creation. Once he gives this authority, he does not take it back. If he could take it back, then he never would have really given it.

The question is playing with the notion of linear time and nonlinear time together. The confusion arises because the question tries to have both linear and nonlinear time together. But for Satin, he lives in linear time. Thus his choice to be evil happens after god created him. God who lives in nonlinear time, can see that Satin will choose evil, but that is only after he has given him the power to contribute to creation. God does not take back this authority, and therefore lets Satin add to creation as he wills.

Also, it has been considered that the reason Satin turned evil is to punish God for creating Jesus. The jealousy that Satin has for mankind is because Jesus became man and not an angel. He is like a jealous older sibling who resents that the younger kid got the attention,so he punished the parent.

Keep in mind also that we have yet to see the end of the story. Neither has Satin. After we are all grown-up (so to speak) perhaps it all works out in the end, and there was no other way. Real life is like that.
 
Good to read: newadvent.org/summa/1049.htm
Objection 2. Further, the effect of the secondary cause is reduced to the first cause. But good is the cause of evil, as was said above (Article 1). Therefore, since God is the cause of every good, as was shown above (2, 3; 6, 1,4), it follows that also every evil is from God.
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Reply to Objection 2. **The effect of the deficient secondary cause [devil] **is reduced to the first non-deficient cause [God] as regards what it has of being and perfection, but not as regards what it has of defect; just as whatever there is of motion in the act of limping is caused by the motive power, whereas what there is of obliqueness in it does not come from the motive power, but from the curvature of the leg. And, likewise, whatever there is of being and action in a bad action, is reduced to God as the cause; whereas whatever defect is in it is not caused by God, but by the deficient secondary cause.
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My additions in green above.
 
987mk said:
Because it’s a work of fiction, that’s why.
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Because you are an atheist, this is false for a variety of reasons. But if you notice carefully the question, the OP dosen’t ask if it the statement is true or false, but rather why were angels created if they were going to hell.

The short answer is that they chose evil instead of good. In other words, the bad angels made their own hell.

Like in … if I chose to get drunk and drive, and then hurt myself and others, am I not responsible for all the hell I put them thru? If I am a father, and I chose to beat the kids who later turn out very badly, am I not responsible for the hell they live in?

We make our own hell by putting ourselves in a bad position.
And we make hell for others by putting them in a bad position.
 
fred_conty said:
Because you are an atheist, this is false for a variety of reasons. But if you notice carefully the question, the OP dosen’t ask if it the statement is true or false, but rather why were angels created if they were going to hell.

The short answer is that they chose evil instead of good. In other words, the bad angels made their own hell.

Like in … if I chose to get drunk and drive, and then hurt myself and others, am I not responsible for all the hell I put them thru? If I am a father, and I chose to beat the kids who later turn out very badly, am I not responsible for the hell they live in?

We make our own hell by putting ourselves in a bad position.
And we make hell for others by putting them in a bad position.
Click to expand...
But the fallen angels were also making it possible for us to exercise and use our free will…if Satan had never rebelled and took 1/3 of the angels with him, what would the alternative be to God? Without ‘another choice’ being present, there is only one choice, so without them doing this, there could not truly be free will.

Satan and ALL the angels are only doing what God created them for, no more, no less.
 
mikekle said:
But the fallen angels were also making it possible for us to exercise and use our free will…if Satan had never rebelled and took 1/3 of the angels with him, what would the alternative be to God? Without ‘another choice’ being present, there is only one choice, so without them doing this, there could not truly be free will.

Satan and ALL the angels are only doing what God created them for, no more, no less.
Click to expand...
There are two kinds of “God willing” something…direct & permissive. God does not will anyone directly to hell…this would be contrary to his total goodness. When God created the angels, he created them for happiness. It was the choice of some to part company with God…their choice.

Whenever the devil works on us, as in the case of Eve, he has the permission of God. And that doesn’t mean it is ok with God that we sin. It means that we have the opportunity to use our freedom to do the good act and express our goodness and virtue in resisting the devil 's ideas. For it is in adversity that we are strong and allow God to work in us. St Paul is repleat with this idea. Goodness is shown in hardship. And the reward from God is proportionate.

In the book of Job, when the devil had his conversation with God to be allowed to tempt Job, God said ok. Notice…the devil first asked permission. The devil is never allowed by God to tempt us greater than our strength.

And there are other sources of temptation besides that of the devil … the world and our own flesh. So God does not need the devil.
 
fred_conty said:
And there are other sources of temptation besides that of the devil … the world and our own flesh. So God does not need the devil.
Click to expand...
I think this is a point that is not stressed often enough.

If the Devil never entered the garden, there is no guarantee that sin would have never entered the world. Evil exists independent of the Devil, he was just the first one to find it and showed the way for everyone after him.
 
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