Why would God create if destined for hell?

[Dameedna]

I think that God created us so that we could share in His love, inevitably this must entail the possibility to rather chose to hate God instead of loving Him. .

No it doesn’t. I’m sure God is perfectly capable of creating humans who can share his love without the threat of punishment.

There is no “inevitable” in this equation. There is only the acceptance you have that God had to create us with free will so we could choose. You ignore the fact that God actually did this in the first place, knowing people would suffer. That is HIS choice, to setup these conditions.

No matter how you look at it, God…has chosen it all.

 

[rotlex]

No it doesn’t. I’m sure God is perfectly capable of creating humans who can share his love without the threat of punishment.

There is no “inevitable” in this equation. There is only the acceptance you have that God had to create us with free will so we could choose. You ignore the fact that God actually did this in the first place, knowing people would suffer. That is HIS choice, to setup these conditions.

No matter how you look at it, God…has chosen it all.

Reading through this thread I’m finding a lot of thoughts\questions that I have always had myself. Being very honest, I struggle with these questions constantly. At times, to the point, where I do wonder if God exists at all. Why does an all powerful, creator need to have punishment at all for his children? Seriously, and please, the free will thing, to me, is simply an “easy out” answer.

I’m asking this honestly. Does God simply have some sick sense of humor, or is he a control freak? I am NOT trying to sound blasphemous, degrading, or anything like that toward him, but to me, these are serious questions that I have never seen answered. WHY are we not simply created in Heaven? Why these tests? If the ultimate goal is really to get to heaven, why the “game”? Again, at times, my mind comes back to the question of God’s existence at all. I DO believe, but at times, it is difficult to not believe that religion, and all of it’s ups and downs, were simply created by man, to control man.

In my reading, searching and learning, at times, I find that the more I learn, the more I question. I don’t like that. Not at all, and I’m having a tough time getting away from this line of thinking.

 

[Dameedna]

WHY are we not simply created in Heaven? Why these tests? If the ultimate goal is really to get to heaven, why the “game”?

It’s not a test. How could a God exist that is so cruel, when the love in my heart is so much bigger?

Either God does not exist.

Or, God has not actually revealed himself…

Or, we’ve mis-understood it.

This God, eventually becomes impossible to believe no matter what you want. Nothing that exists, is quite this cruel.

Again, at times, my mind comes back to the question of God’s existence at all. I DO believe, but at times, it is difficult to not believe that religion, and all of it’s ups and downs, were simply created by man, to control man.

Man tries to control man, and they will use ANY mechanism they have to do so, including religion.

This is not the fault of the religion, it is the fault of man. That’s easy to say, but take a good look at the actual religion you follow. It’s not very pleasant.

The word “love” seems to be an excuse for almost anything. Gods love for man, justifies free-will, and an ultimate choice of enternal hellfire.

If it was me…I just wouldn’t create humans in the first place. But…I’m not God. I’m not a monster.

In my reading, searching and learning, at times, I find that the more I learn, the more I question. I don’t like that. Not at all, and I’m having a tough time getting away from this line of thinking.

Once your conscience shifts, you cannot back away. Follow it, truth is worth the search no matter what it costs you.

Cheers

 

[St_Gregory]

No it doesn’t. I’m sure God is perfectly capable of creating humans who can share his love without the threat of punishment.

There is no “inevitable” in this equation. There is only the acceptance you have that God had to create us with free will so we could choose. You ignore the fact that God actually did this in the first place, knowing people would suffer. That is HIS choice, to setup these conditions.

No matter how you look at it, God…has chosen it all.

God had to give us the real possibility of hell (I avoid the word “punishment” because that’s not quite the right way to think of hell) because a loving Being like God will not force His love (in heaven) on people who reject His Love. And thus you’re words: “I’m sure God is perfectly capable of creating humans who can share his love without the threat of punishment” are simply illogical.

You ignore the fact that God actually did this in the first place, knowing people would suffer. That is HIS choice, to setup these conditions.

That’s not fair: I did not ignore that fact at all. I know full well that it was God’s choice to give us freewill in the first place - this does not diminish God’s omnibenevolence though because that was the most loving thing to do, even though it may result in sin and death.
Don’t forget that although God allowed us to fall into sin and death by giving us freewill, He only did this so that we could ever really love Him and it was Him that also provided a way out of sin and back to God through His Son.

rotlex:

Why does an all powerful, creator need to have punishment at all for his children? Seriously, and please, the free will thing, to me, is simply an “easy out” answer.

Why do you say freewill doctrine is an easy out? It may well be convenient for Christian apologists to use but that does not diminish its truth.

 

[St_Gregory]

It’s not a test. How could a God exist that is so cruel, when the love in my heart is so much bigger?

Either God does not exist.

Or, God has not actually revealed himself…

Or, we’ve mis-understood it.

This God, eventually becomes impossible to believe no matter what you want. Nothing that exists, is quite this cruel.

Man tries to control man, and they will use ANY mechanism they have to do so, including religion.

This is not the fault of the religion, it is the fault of man. That’s easy to say, but take a good look at the actual religion you follow. It’s not very pleasant.

The word “love” seems to be an excuse for almost anything. Gods love for man, justifies free-will, and an ultimate choice of enternal hellfire.

If it was me…I just wouldn’t create humans in the first place. But…I’m not God. I’m not a monster.

Once your conscience shifts, you cannot back away. Follow it, truth is worth the search no matter what it costs you.

Cheers

This would be more suited for the problem of Evil and Suffering but on a more eschatological level.

How could a God exist that is so cruel, when the love in my heart is so much bigger?

Why do you say God is cruel?
The love in your heart may well be significantly “big” - but it’s not reasonable to try and compare it with God.

 

[rotlex]

Why do you say freewill doctrine is an easy out? It may well be convenient for Christian apologists to use but that does not diminish its truth.

I only stated that as it seems to be the answer for, well, just about everything. I don’t mean this disrespectfully, but honestly, it seems that anytime anyone has a question regarding certain things, the answer, 99% of the times, seems to be because of free will. I get it, but again, it just seems like the easy answer to give when there really is not an answer to certain questions.

 

[St_Gregory]

I only stated that as it seems to be the answer for, well, just about everything. I don’t mean this disrespectfully, but honestly, it seems that anytime anyone has a question regarding certain things, the answer, 99% of the times, seems to be because of free will. I get it, but again, it just seems like the easy answer to give when there really is not an answer to certain questions.

I agree that a lot of the time very hard philosophical answers are over simplified with blaming freewill - mainly because a better answer will either take a long time to write, or because we Theists know that any Atheists will just not accept it.
For example with the suffering and torture of children which questions God’s Goodness/existence, my answer is that: I don’t know. As the book of Job makes clear, we cannot understand God’s Will - something may seem utterly evil to us and we have no choice but to blame God, but ultimately it may be that God had a very good reason to let innocent children suffer which we just cannot see.

 

[jmcrae]

Reading through this thread I’m finding a lot of thoughts\questions that I have always had myself. Being very honest, I struggle with these questions constantly. At times, to the point, where I do wonder if God exists at all. Why does an all powerful, creator need to have punishment at all for his children?

I’ve come to see it as not being so much a “punishment” as simply a consequence. God isn’t a person like us. “He” doesn’t have feelings as such, so doen’t really get angry, any more than a mountain or the wind can get angry, although either of those can do serious harm when they are “in the mood” so to speak.

God isn’t a kind of a superconscious force of nature, either - that’s far too small of an idea, as well - but it’s an image that kind of helps me cope. God is wild. God is the Creator; the source of all that is. God is unstoppable. If you go against God, you are going against the very life-source itself.

Committing a sin against God isn’t like insulting a relative; it’s more like making the mountains shake, or making the wind blow at a thousand miles an hour. “Not good” would be one description. It unleashes a lot of destructive power.

It makes me wonder sometimes about the nature of God’s consciousness. Does He control His wrath, or is it just something that “happens” the way a rock falls down, if there is nothing holding it up and nothing underneath it?

Is it like letting a gun off in an avalanche area of the mountains, and then the avalanche falls on you? The mountain obviously doesn’t do that on purpose, because mountains aren’t conscious.

If the mountain were conscious, though, would it have the ability to not have an avalanche, if someone lets off a gun in an unstable area? Would it be able to control the flow of the rock-fall and the snow pack, such that the rocks and snow didn’t bury the person who let off the gun?

Or would it just find some way to warn people not to do that, and then let the consequences happen as they may?

Seriously, and please, the free will thing, to me, is simply an “easy out” answer.

This assumes that the eternal consequences for sin are imposed; not natural.

I’m asking this honestly. Does God simply have some sick sense of humor, or is he a control freak?

This is giving God human characteristics. God isn’t human.

I am NOT trying to sound blasphemous, degrading, or anything like that toward him, but to me, these are serious questions that I have never seen answered. WHY are we not simply created in Heaven? Why these tests?

I don’t think it’s a test. (A friend of mine jokes that it’s an actual emergency.)

I think that human beings were created with an actual role to play in the world - that we are an intentional and integral part of the world. In Genesis, it says that Adam was created to till and care for the garden. Eve was created to be his companion and helper. Our job is to take good care of the world.

Heaven is where we go at the end, when we are no longer strong enough to live in our bodies, and do the work that we were created to do.

 

[rotlex]

Your statements below are a pretty good way to look at things. Thanks for that. Of course, I still have questions, as I’m sure we all do, and I can only hope that at some point my confusion in these matters can become more clear. My problem, at times it seems, is that the more I “learn”, the more confused I become!

I’m currently attending my diocese ILM (Institute for Lay Ministry) courses which is a 3 year program. I’m in year one. I thoroughly enjoy it, but, and I have discussed this with a few, I think in some ways what I learn, not only makes me want to learn more, but also causes me to question more, if that makes any sense at all.

I’m told this is normal, and that over time, I will begin to grow from it. I hope so, and I’ve put my faith in God, and ask him to strengthen me in these regards each day!

Thanks again for that synopsis.

I’ve come to see it as not being so much a “punishment” as simply a consequence. God isn’t a person like us. “He” doesn’t have feelings as such, so doen’t really get angry, any more than a mountain or the wind can get angry, although either of those can do serious harm when they are “in the mood” so to speak.

God isn’t a kind of a superconscious force of nature, either - that’s far too small of an idea, as well - but it’s an image that kind of helps me cope. God is wild. God is the Creator; the source of all that is. God is unstoppable. If you go against God, you are going against the very life-source itself.

Committing a sin against God isn’t like insulting a relative; it’s more like making the mountains shake, or making the wind blow at a thousand miles an hour. “Not good” would be one description. It unleashes a lot of destructive power.

It makes me wonder sometimes about the nature of God’s consciousness. Does He control His wrath, or is it just something that “happens” the way a rock falls down, if there is nothing holding it up and nothing underneath it?

Is it like letting a gun off in an avalanche area of the mountains, and then the avalanche falls on you? The mountain obviously doesn’t do that on purpose, because mountains aren’t conscious.

If the mountain were conscious, though, would it have the ability to not have an avalanche, if someone lets off a gun in an unstable area? Would it be able to control the flow of the rock-fall and the snow pack, such that the rocks and snow didn’t bury the person who let off the gun?

Or would it just find some way to warn people not to do that, and then let the consequences happen as they may?

This assumes that the eternal consequences for sin are imposed; not natural.

This is giving God human characteristics. God isn’t human.

I don’t think it’s a test. (A friend of mine jokes that it’s an actual emergency.)

I think that human beings were created with an actual role to play in the world - that we are an intentional and integral part of the world. In Genesis, it says that Adam was created to till and care for the garden. Eve was created to be his companion and helper. Our job is to take good care of the world.

Heaven is where we go at the end, when we are no longer strong enough to live in our bodies, and do the work that we were created to do.

 

[wcknight]

Free will is not just the easy answer, it is the definitive answer.

Without free will, sin is not possible AND without free will Love is also impossible. Because God wants creatures who love Him freely, he allows us the choice to make up our own minds.

How can you say the love in your heart is so much bigger when you don’t even return the love that your Creator gives to you ???

Someone who sent His only Son to suffer horribly and die for you, and you return His love with spite and skepticism. No, I think God’s love is infinitely greater than yours.

He forgives you inspite of what you think. You condemn Him because you don’t put the effort in to really know Him. He loves you unconditionally in spite of your weaknesses, but you dispise Him because you think He should be able to fit into your contradictory ideals about what it means to be all powerful or all knowing.

This is a God who loves you in spite of your willingness to turn away from Him. You critisize what you don’t understand and blame God for the failings of humans, when the very thing that makes us human makes love possible.

Yes, if there were no free will, sin would not be possible. BUT also IF there were no free will, Love also would not be possible. IF you can explain how someone can love without free will, then you might have an argument. Then you can play God and try to eliminate sin as well.

 

[Dameedna]

Free will is not just the easy answer, it is the definitive answer.

Without free will, sin is not possible AND without free will Love is also impossible. Because God wants creatures who love Him freely, he allows us the choice to make up our own minds.

I have no issue with God giving us free will, if that is in fact true. The problem, is that in giving us free will, he know’s we will/can choose something that by his own conditions is an eternal hell.

There is no reason for the “punishment” to be an eternal hell. That’s Gods chosen punishment. And he did that, created us, KNOWING some people would end up there.

As has already been stated, regardless of how it is justified it is what it is. God didn’t HAVE to create us. He WANTS people to love him freely, meaning he will create conditions for eternal suffering to get what he wants.

That, is usually called narcisissm.

How can you say the love in your heart is so much bigger when you don’t even return the love that your Creator gives to you ???

I do not aggree with the christian description of God, because it is not a loving God. I would never return “love” to an entity that is so cruel.

Some people may accept certain notions as loving, but I do not.

Someone who sent His only Son to suffer horribly and die for you, and you return His love with spite and skepticism. No, I think God’s love is infinitely greater than yours.

Again, what kind of God, would require a suffering Son, to forgive humanity? What God, is that cruel? You can call it love all you want, but again it is what it is. Create humans with free will, because God WANTS something, knowing that free will, will result in an eternal suffering and that his son will have to die a horrible death to make up for it.

You may call this love, I do not.

There is no reason why any of this was necessary in the first place.

He forgives you inspite of what you think. You condemn Him because you don’t put the effort in to really know Him.

I do not think the christian God exists, although something may exist and I do think religions hint to this but, I simply do not know. When you say I won’t make the effort to get to know him, what you really mean, is I won’t follow a religion that has at it’s depth some horrifying concepts.

And you are right, I don’t accept your concept of God.

He loves you unconditionally in spite of your weaknesses, but you dispise Him because you think He should be able to fit into your contradictory ideals about what it means to be all powerful or all knowing.

Nope, I dont’ despise something that doesn’t exist. I do sometimes wonder at what kind of person thinks they can exist happily for eternity knowing that some-one will suffer eternally, but that defines them, not God.

This is a God who loves you in spite of your willingness to turn away from Him.

Out of my 5 senses that I’ve been given, there is no evidence of any such creature, but you are correct in that I turn away from organized religion for the most part despite my agnostic views, because I have no doubt it’s the religion that is wrong.

And no, the free will argument does not hold. God supposedly WANTS a creature to love him so much, that he will setup the conditions that will result in eternal suffering so that he can get a few souls to love him. Regardless of wether you call it a choice, it all comes from God in the first place. You accept it as love, I do not.

I think a lot of people re-iterate this kind of thing, without really thinking about what it is they are supporting. But when you begin to question it, the horror that is this particular doctrine(heaven and hell) causes an incredible amount of anhgst and fear…what if it’s wrong? What if it’s all wrong? HOW could this actually be true?

That is a hard place to be, and I’m sorry for those that have to go through it. Thankfully I went through it a long time ago .

 

[wcknight]

If the Christian/Catholic image of God with its rewards and punishments are cruel and unjust to you, how would your view of a just Creator differ.

It sounds like you object to the idea of free will, so I take it that you would rather have everyone act as instructed or as expected. Hell is too cruel so punishment is out. Of course without free will sin and crime would be non-existent.

Would that make the world a better place ? No free thinking, no decisions to make, no right or wrong, does that sound like the perfect world to you. That may have been what the Garden of Eden was like (except for the forbidden fruit tree).

A world without choices would be pretty boring I would think. Personally, I think that was what Adam and Eve eventually got hooked with. The idea that they could make a choice contrary to what was expected.

You believe that our idea of God is cruel because he gave us the right to make our own choices (and therefore be able to choose evil and damnation). I think it would have be much more cruel if He refused to give us any choices.

The most tyranical societies throughout all history have been the ones who offered its subject very little or no choices. History has shown that the rulers, who are the most oppressive, are the ones who controlled their subjects the most and basically gave their folks the fewest choices possible.

Humans crave freedom, we hate control. We are happiest when we have more choices not fewer. And it’s not just us, no creature on earth likes to be caged up or chained. The more restrictions there are, the more unbearable the conditions.

I think your vision of a Creator as one who is all controlling, is far more cruel than the one we have who at least gives us the freedom to chose right or wrong as we please.

WE choose whether to love God or not. God chooses to love us regardless. WE choose to be with Him or not. God wants us to choose Him. So it is OUR responsibilty, not His, to make the proper choices.

BTW God not only sent His Son, He sent Himself as well, We also believe that Jesus and God are one and the same entity. It’s a bit of a paradox, but God became human and suffered and died on that cross.

I know by your way of thinking that eternal punishment is too cruel a punishment for anybody. AND you may be absolutely correct, a lot of other folks believe the exact same thing. There is a possibility that no one is in Hell. That would be just great, no one gets burned and everyone either goes to Heaven or somewhere in between. There may even be some or a lot of Catholics who think this also.

Personally, I don’t thinks so. To me it’s not logical and it’s inconsistent with what the Church teaches and contrary to what some of the saints have told us about their experiences. Along with the idea of divine mercy is the concept of divine justice. IF you are unwilling to repent and accept forgiveness for your sins, you will ultimately have to face the consequences for them.

Some people simply hate God and embrace evil for all their life and even after death continue to reject God (no one knows for sure, but I would suppose there are some who even after death reject and hate God). Although I believe everyone has the potential to be good, they also have the potential to become evil. The Hitlers and Stalins of the world made free choices to become who they are/were. No one forced them to be this way.

Assuming these folks never repented even after they died. The Church teaches that they end up in Hell or with eternal punishment. They hate God (and others) and they choose not be with God. According to you, these folks should end up in Heaven even though they don’t want to be there and even though they hate God and everything He stands for.

How is that logical or right ? According to you, our version of God, is that He is cruel for exacting retribution for the evil that these folks perpetrated.

God did not force these folks to commit atrocities. He did not ask these guys to start wars or to persecute people. They did so for their own power or gain or hatred or whatever.

It appears to me that you are accusing or blaming the wrong folks for the crimes. According to our religion, God even gives these folks a get out of jail (or stay of execution) card. All they have to do is admit their sins, say I’m sorry (and maybe spend some time in Purgatory- a few thousand or million lifetimes or so) and they escape eternal damnation.

To me you can’t get any more fair than that.

 

[Dameedna]

If the Christian/Catholic image of God with its rewards and punishments are cruel and unjust to you, how would your view of a just Creator differ.

I think this is a very good question actually. There appears to be a fundamental difference between what an athiest/agnostic views as justice and what a believer does.

This leads both of us to accept certain ideas, or reject them. This has nothing to do with God, it has to do with who we are.

A Just world, is a world where everyone chooses to do the right thing. That is a just world to me. Do we have that? No. But that is a just world to me.

Free will is necessary to choice obviously. We are either free, or not free(It is entirely possible we are actually automations, but for arguments sake, I will say we are not).

The PROBLEM with the reward and punishment system of christianity, is that the choice made in one lifetime(80 years), is enough for an eternal suffering.

My view of a perfect love(conceptually God) would never choose to create an entity(us) that would result in an eternal punishment in the first place. He would choose never to create us.

So both our concept of justice and love is fundamentally different, because of who we are, not because of God.

You believe that our idea of God is cruel because he gave us the right to make our own choices (and therefore be able to choose evil and damnation). I think it would have be much more cruel if He refused to give us any choices.

I do not think God is Cruel. I think that your understanding of God, if he exists is cruel. I just want to make that clear.

You believe it would be worse if God made us as automations and although I cannot guarantee we aren’t I suspect you are right. What is worse, as I said above, is a God that would create an entity with free will, and know before hand it would end up in hell * eternally*.

The greater choice, would be not to create that entity in the first place. My view and opinion on Love will be different than yours.

I think your vision of a Creator as one who is all controlling, is far more cruel than the one we have who at least gives us the freedom to chose right or wrong as we please.

This has never been my vision nor have I said so. It appears you are beginning to draw conclusions on my views without my discussion. I’m talking about heaven and hell.

Some people simply hate God and embrace evil for all their life and even after death continue to reject God (no one knows for sure, but I would suppose there are some who even after death reject and hate God). Although I believe everyone has the potential to be good, they also have the potential to become evil. The Hitlers and Stalins of the world made free choices to become who they are/were. No one forced them to be this way.

I do agree that people can spend their life hating what is good. I’ve met those people. Do not presume that everyone who disagrees with your concept of God is one of them.

I also agree that we all have the potential either way.

Assuming these folks never repented even after they died. The Church teaches that they end up in Hell or with eternal punishment. They hate God (and others) and they choose not be with God. According to you, these folks should end up in Heaven even though they don’t want to be there and even though they hate God and everything He stands for.

No, according to me, the concept of an eternal hell is worse than the concept of humans not being created in the first place.

It is the eternal punishment, given after a finite lifetime that is the problem.

How is that logical or right ? According to you, our version of God, is that He is cruel for exacting retribution for the evil that these folks perpetrated.

And I suspect there are just a few too many people, who are delighted over the concept of another going to hell. They seem to need this “retribution” so much, they will support a notion that is eternal.

To me, it simply cannot possibly be true. It is not love.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

And I suspect there are just a few too many people, who are delighted over the concept of another going to hell. They seem to need this “retribution” so much, they will support a notion that is eternal.

To me, it simply cannot possibly be true. It is not love.

Emotionally speaking, that makes perfect sense. However, if in fact God has given us free will, does it not stand to reason that there will be some that will defy God and his love? If not, then what God has done is create us in a way which does not in fact give us free will. In other words, if everyone definitely goes to heaven in the end, then either God is not really just, or he has not really given us a free will. You just can’t have it both ways.

Do you think it is fair that the rebellious angels were sent to hell? Does that fact not also PROVE that God is both Just, and that he has created the angels with free will.

The problem is, without hell, you have to conclude that God is either unjust, or does not really give us a free will.

God’s love is not diminished because souls go to hell, ON THE CONTRARY! Even though God KNOWS who will end up in hell, He still wants them to be saved. People in hell have rejected God and his Love, but God does not reject them.

Sometimes I think about how God created us, and how we have sinned, and not loved, and done every sort of iniquity, and yet he is willing to forgive us, IF WE JUST USE OUR FREE WILL to return to him. That is what God’s mercy and love is about.

He will then have us LIVE WITH HIM IN HEAVEN for all time, without end. How can God not have love when he makes it so EASY for anyone to love him, and eventually live with him forever and ever in his own house?

I wonder that ANYONE should be given such a favor! I wonder that God would want us to be with Him forever. He doesn’t need our praise or love in the least. How will he be able to stand us for all eternity, living right in his own house, and so many of us?? (Think of it!) Only boundless, infinite Love toward us makes this possible.

So people in Hell have no one to curse but themselves. But at the same time it PROVES God is just and DOES give us a free will.

 

[quaestio]

Here’s what I think the OP is getting at…

If God sees the whole of history as a finished painting, then He presently sees Smith murder Jones, fail to repent for it, die in old age, and receive eternal punishment.

Given this account, I think the OP rightly wants to know: why does God bring Smith into being if God simultaneously knows that Smith’s end-point is eternal punishment?

 

[jmcrae]

Here’s what I think the OP is getting at…

If God sees the whole of history as a finished painting, then He presently sees Smith murder Jones, fail to repent for it, die in old age, and receive eternal punishment.

Given this account, I think the OP rightly wants to know: why does God bring Smith into being if God simultaneously knows that Smith’s end-point is eternal punishment?

Because until God actuates Smith, the murder and the non-repentance can’t take place, and (since God cannot see what does not exist) God doesn’t see it, yet. God only sees it when Smith actually exists, and at the eternal instant that God creates Smith, the murder and the non-repentance afterwards, and the end of the world and the final Judgment have all already happened to Smith - and God cannot unmake what He has already made.

 

[quaestio]

Because until God actuates Smith, the murder and the non-repentance can’t take place, and (since God cannot see what does not exist) God doesn’t see it, yet. God only sees it when Smith actually exists, and at the eternal instant that God creates Smith, the murder and the non-repentance afterwards, and the end of the world and the final Judgment have all already happened to Smith - and God cannot unmake what He has already made.

jmcrae, I appreciate your reply.

Are you saying that Smith’s birth, act of murder, unrepentant attitude, death, and eternal punishment are all simultaneously willed into being by God?

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae, I appreciate your reply.

Are you saying that Smith’s birth, act of murder, unrepentant attitude, death, and eternal punishment are all simultaneously willed into being by God?

Yes. God does not experience time - the sequential ordering of events. For Him, everything is happening all in the same “instant,” so to speak.

 

[quaestio]

Yes. God does not experience time - the sequential ordering of events. For Him, everything is happening all in the same “instant,” so to speak.

I feel like a problem remains…

When you say Smith’s birth, act of murder, unrepentant attitude, death, and eternal punishment are simultaneous from God’s perspective, it’s almost as if for an instant God does not know what the temporal unfolding of His single act of creating would be.

If my point is not clear, please let me know.

 

[jmcrae]

I feel like a problem remains…

When you say Smith’s birth, act of murder, unrepentant attitude, death, and eternal punishment are simultaneous from God’s perspective, it’s almost as if for an instant God does not know what the temporal unfolding of His single act of creating would be.

If my point is not clear, please let me know.

God “foreknows” things that are actually going to happen, because from His point of view, they have already happened.

But, God isn’t actually a seer. He actually can’t “beforehand” (speaking as if there were a “before”) know that creating Smith is a bad idea. All He can do is actually create Smith, and see what transpires. By the time the idea of Smith has fully entered into God’s mind, Smith has not only been created, but he has already sinned, been unrepentant, and gone to Hell already, because God’s thinking is His creating. We exist solely because God is thinking of us - we have no independent existence. If God were to stop thinking of us, we would simply cease ever to have existed.

From Smith’s point of view, God already knows what is going to happen to him even before he is born, when he is in the womb, but by the time Smith is in the womb, he exists in his whole entirety - everything that will happen to him - already exists - his growing up, his sin, his unrepentance, his death, his Judgment, and the fact that he is in Hell.