Why would God expect us to believe the Resurrection?

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D0UBTFIRE

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This is related to the question in my other thread, but it is a different question so here goes:

Even if a good argument can be made for a Resurrection, why would God expect us to believe that it was His doing? Just because there is an argument that makes sense doesn’t make the actual event true…an argument makes you think “well, maybe they’re right”, but it isn’t very persuasive to be sitting here reading some Christian scholar online who says “these are the reasons we know the Resurrection happened”… I mean, there are LOTS of arguments online for lots of things that “make sense”, from miracle diets, to UFOs, to other religions, to you name it…but a “logical argument” doesn’t mean that what is being argued is actually true, it just means that the person writing it is very good with words and debate, and the person reading is impressionable…KWIM?

Also, even if the event actually happened…how do we know Jesus wasn’t an alien? I know that question sounds kinda stupid - but really, how do we know we’re not worshiping some alien or time traveler who could control matter in ways we’ve never imagined possible?

My point is, it doesn’t make sense that salvation is predicated on our belief in an event that we can’t witness first hand. If God gave me the ability to reason, why would God want me to believe something that depends on someone else telling me something that supposedly happened a long time before I was born? Essentially, it seems that salvation is based on believing something akin to hearsay. That seems so silly to me.
 
D0UBTFIRE said:
My point is, it doesn’t make sense that salvation is predicated on our belief in an event that we can’t witness first hand.
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Most of what you think you “know” you take on the basis of reliable witness by others and haven’t witnessed first hand yourself.
 
D0UBTFIRE said:
This is related to the question in my other thread, but it is a different question so here goes:

Even if a good argument can be made for a Resurrection, why would God expect us to believe that it was His doing? Just because there is an argument that makes sense doesn’t make the actual event true…

My point is, it doesn’t make sense that salvation is predicated on our belief in an event that we can’t witness first hand. If God gave me the ability to reason, why would God want me to believe something that depends on someone else telling me something that supposedly happened a long time before I was born? Essentially, it seems that salvation is based on believing something akin to hearsay. That seems so silly to me.
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DF to assume the things you do for your post to seem credible to you suggests a certain level of disconnection from a real experience of personal and communal relationship ad trust that most of us know without finding in a book or online.

What you call silly is in fact a very accurate summary of the basis of Christianity.
The truths of Christianity do not contradict reason, but ours is not a religion of philosophic proof or insight like gnosticism or Buddhism. It is personal experience given to a community to pass down in time in the usual frail ways … through family primarily. So Christian faith intrinsically involves faith and trust in a human community also, for that is the only way we connect with the past.

You need to realise that not all truth given to the world is accessible individually or by reason alone. I suggest you have significant human trust issues disguised by over reliance on individual reason. Yes, trust is a very dangerous and risky venture…to own truth you must be prepared to be hurt. It gets easier as one learns to give oneself to the future and others without reserve for the sake of Him who made us.
 
We are to place faith in Him for all of our life.

That only makes sense if He has power over its most frightening and hideous aspect, which is death.

ICXC NIKA
 
D0UBTFIRE said:
This is related to the question in my other thread, but it is a different question so here goes:

Even if a good argument can be made for a Resurrection, why would God expect us to believe that it was His doing? Just because there is an argument that makes sense doesn’t make the actual event true…an argument makes you think “well, maybe they’re right”, but it isn’t very persuasive to be sitting here reading some Christian scholar online who says “these are the reasons we know the Resurrection happened”… I mean, there are LOTS of arguments online for lots of things that “make sense”, from miracle diets, to UFOs, to other religions, to you name it…but a “logical argument” doesn’t mean that what is being argued is actually true, it just means that the person writing it is very good with words and debate, and the person reading is impressionable…KWIM?

Also, even if the event actually happened…how do we know Jesus wasn’t an alien? I know that question sounds kinda stupid - but really, how do we know we’re not worshiping some alien or time traveler who could control matter in ways we’ve never imagined possible?

My point is, it doesn’t make sense that salvation is predicated on our belief in an event that we can’t witness first hand. If God gave me the ability to reason, why would God want me to believe something that depends on someone else telling me something that supposedly happened a long time before I was born? Essentially, it seems that salvation is based on believing something akin to hearsay. That seems so silly to me.
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There are sciences that study ancient civilizations and people, which goes towards our human propensity for communion. Why care or bother with archaeology if what happened 1000, 2000, or 20000 years ago has no relation to humans today?

By all means form an opinion but at least make it an informed one. It is naive to think you live in a world where even the sciences do not rely on the oral traditions, ancients text, even a pottery shard made by a human hand, when reconstructing the past. Rejecting something because it is tied to religion is not rational.
 
D0UBTFIRE said:
This is related to the question in my other thread, but it is a different question so here goes:

Even if a good argument can be made for a Resurrection, why would God expect us to believe that it was His doing? Just because there is an argument that makes sense doesn’t make the actual event true…an argument makes you think “well, maybe they’re right”, but it isn’t very persuasive to be sitting here reading some Christian scholar online who says “these are the reasons we know the Resurrection happened”… I mean, there are LOTS of arguments online for lots of things that “make sense”, from miracle diets, to UFOs, to other religions, to you name it…but a “logical argument” doesn’t mean that what is being argued is actually true, it just means that the person writing it is very good with words and debate, and the person reading is impressionable…KWIM?

Also, even if the event actually happened….how do we know Jesus wasn’t an alien? I know that question sounds kinda stupid - but really, how do we know we’re not worshiping some alien or time traveler who could control matter in ways we’ve never imagined possible?

My point is, it doesn’t make sense that salvation is predicated on our belief in an event that we can’t witness first hand. If God gave me the ability to reason, why would God want me to believe something that depends on someone else telling me something that supposedly happened a long time before I was born? Essentially, it seems that salvation is based on believing something akin to hearsay. That seems so silly to me.
Click to expand...
 
D0UBTFIRE said:
This is related to the question in my other thread, but it is a different question so here goes:

Even if a good argument can be made for a Resurrection, why would God expect us to believe that it was His doing? Just because there is an argument that makes sense doesn’t make the actual event true…an argument makes you think “well, maybe they’re right”, but it isn’t very persuasive to be sitting here reading some Christian scholar online who says “these are the reasons we know the Resurrection happened”… I mean, there are LOTS of arguments online for lots of things that “make sense”, from miracle diets, to UFOs, to other religions, to you name it…but a “logical argument” doesn’t mean that what is being argued is actually true, it just means that the person writing it is very good with words and debate, and the person reading is impressionable…KWIM?

Also, even if the event actually happened…how do we know Jesus wasn’t an alien? I know that question sounds kinda stupid - but really, how do we know we’re not worshiping some alien or time traveler who could control matter in ways we’ve never imagined possible?

My point is, it doesn’t make sense that salvation is predicated on our belief in an event that we can’t witness first hand. If God gave me the ability to reason, why would God want me to believe something that depends on someone else telling me something that supposedly happened a long time before I was born? Essentially, it seems that salvation is based on believing something akin to hearsay. That seems so silly to me.
Click to expand...
God wants us to believe in Him, in His existence, trustworthiness, mercy, and love, including His desire that we continue to exist in eternal happiness. That’s what Jesus came to reveal, the resurrection being the capstone, the triumph over death so we can know for certain that life continues on, that this life isn’t merely a slaughterhouse in the end.

How do we know any of it is true? By recognizing it all as Gods handiwork and responding to it in faith, which He gives us the grace to do as we’re wiling. According to church teachings, man turned away from God at the beginning, becoming lost. God wants us separated from the world now, turning back to Him, becoming found. Faith is the foundation of that restored relationship.
 
The Resurrection of Him…Some of us know already what it means, and if you’re a Catholic, then you should already know what it means.For I say this, it’s a picture, it has meaning, and when “you” shall go to a place to remove “anything unpure” then you to will understand what it means, once He comes to take you into His “Kingdom”. So try not to figure it out to much, because you will not be able to, just believe it and BELEIVE IN HIS WORD! I say this…I can goto another “land” far, far away from “you” and come to “you” after a designated time, and tell “you” all about it, but yet you will not know/grasp my understanding or meaning of it, will you? So, try to grasp the picture of the Resurrection of Him…In due time, you will eventually understand it, for NOTHING unclean shall enter His Kingdom, is it not written? So, know that there is a place to go, to remove our filth, and when we go…WE SHALL HAVE FAITH IN HIM WHILE WE ARE THERE , and He will come unto you, and THEN and ONLY THEN, you will KNOW what it means. And you shall see God.For Jesus has spoken, that those who has seem ME has seen my FATHER!
Thank the Almighty we have someone to save us!
Amen
Peace…
 
Jesus did die for all of our sins…believe it! It’s true!

Peace
 
If it’s not true, or if Jesus were not human, then our hope is pointless. I think this is a matter of faith, and the facts can only take you so far. God doesn’t just desire our obedience and trust in what we understand (how can we understand God anyway, besides what He lets us know?).
 
True… I shall add to that if one can not go outside in a sun’s rising from the East (Morning), how is it that one can not see His love for us (mankind)? Look at all the birds that gather and sing into thine ears, look at the branches of any tree that gest blown from a wind! Are the trees not “cheering” one on into “His” space?

Peace
 
SpeakKindly said:
If it’s not true, or if Jesus were not human, then our hope is pointless. I think this is a matter of faith, and the facts can only take you so far. God doesn’t just desire our obedience and trust in what we understand (how can we understand God anyway, besides what He lets us know?).
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I get where you’re coming from, really I do.

But…there is a distinction between God and the religion called Christianity. To put one’s trust in God, is not the same to put one’s trust in a religion who claims to be from God. The religion might be wrong, but that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t exist. So of course I don’t understand God… but because I don’t understand Him doesn’t mean that those that claim to have his revelation actual do have that revelation. This is where evidence comes in. If I am to believe that Catholicism, or Islam, or Mormonism, or any religion, is truly FROM God, is truly The One True Faith, then I really feel that I need some solid facts to back that up. Hence, I’m searching.
 
D0UBTFIRE said:
To put one’s trust in God, is not the same to put one’s trust in a religion who claims to be from God.
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That is where you are mistaken.
trust in God and trust in a community of frail humans He established in the past are inextricably linked.

How do you know your great grandfather is your great grandfather, that he looks like he allegedly did, and that he allegedly did all sorts of different things that never made it onto the internet or pictures and which he never told you?

Same with Christianity and Judaism.
if you don’t trust the testimony of those members of your family who have gone before you then Christianity simply is not accessible to you or anybody.

You only end up with Natural religion, not Revelation.
That’s how God wanted it.

Choose faith/trust or don’t choose.
That’s the deicison, there is no other wrt Christianity.

If you think it irrational to do so then become a Buddhist, they don’t believe in Revelation.
For them its always breaking through illusions by right-seeing and “try out our teaching and discover for yourself if it isn’t true.”
 
Doubtfire, your questions seem to all imply that God did certain things explicitly for your benefit, so that you would have something tangible to believe in.

In this thread you are asking why God expects you to believe that the resurrection was caused by God. Do you really think that the resurrection happened so that YOU would have something to believe in? Didn’t God have a higher purpose for it? A purpose for himself, not you?

You are asking for a tangible sign, a proof, and one that is explicitly for you.

Jesus said: “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

I deal with very advanced things in my profession. I see that when something new and complex is first introduced, everyone has difficulty with it. When it comes to proving it, each person needs there own specific proof since they all have their own background and knowledge base. Proving something new and profound to everyone is actually impossible.

There is a scaffolding though in our ability to understand new things. If we first embrace them, move forward assuming they are true, have faith in the person who told us, we can eventually come to understand. Understanding takes time. Faith becomes knowledge only over time. The more profound the new idea, the longer it takes.

For example, those scientists who searched for a cure for a disease had to have faith that a cure was possible first. All new truths start with faith at first.

If God is telling us that we are blessed if we have faith in him, we should take him seriously. Once you internalize this faith and bring it into action, doing what the Father commands, etc. the knowledge you seek will be found. And this knowledge will be direct, not just a technical understanding of some magical event that happened 2000 years ago. God is alive and well. But don’t think that the miraculous events in the bible were put there so that you would believe in him?!? By his own statement he says that you must have faith first. There is no other way.

God’s truths are hidden so that they are inaccessible to those who would use the knowledge for evil. You must first become blessed, and this requires humility combined with perseverance in faith. Recall the beatitudes.

Your intellect is only one way in which you will come to know God. God is a person (Jesus) so you can come to know him as a friend. First pray the prayer for humility. God always grants that. Questioning God’s ‘proofs’ that were never even intended to be proofs is not a very humble approach. Know what I mean?
 
D0UBTFIRE said:
… This is where evidence comes in. If I am to believe that Catholicism, or Islam, or Mormonism, or any religion, is truly FROM God, is truly The One True Faith, then I really feel that I need some solid facts to back that up. Hence, I’m searching.
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Are there any miracles in the bible which you DO you think happened? Why single out just the Resurrection?

In fact, you can be skeptical of anything/everything God does and ask exactly the same question.
…Why would God expect us to believe He did it?
 
D0UBTFIRE said:
I get where you’re coming from, really I do.

But…there is a distinction between God and the religion called Christianity. To put one’s trust in God, is not the same to put one’s trust in a religion who claims to be from God. The religion might be wrong, but that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t exist. So of course I don’t understand God… but because I don’t understand Him doesn’t mean that those that claim to have his revelation actual do have that revelation. This is where evidence comes in. If I am to believe that Catholicism, or Islam, or Mormonism, or any religion, is truly FROM God, is truly The One True Faith, then I really feel that I need some solid facts to back that up. Hence, I’m searching.
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Very well put. IOW, you have not only explained your own difficulties succinctly, but you have hit the nail on the head as far as what ANY revealed religion must answer.

First realize that Divine Faith (as opposed to ordinary human faith) comes from God. You should pray to God for that Faith, like the Apostles themselves did.

Second, follow your conscience. Try to be aware and sensitive as to where your conscience is leading you.

Thirdly, be humble before God, and you WILL draw down His grace!
 
Lion_IRC said:
Are there any miracles in the bible which you DO you think happened? Why single out just the Resurrection?

In fact, you can be skeptical of anything/everything God does and ask exactly the same question.
…Why would God expect us to believe He did it?
Click to expand...
No, right now because I’m questioning the Resurrection so intensely, I don’t believe that any other miracles claimed in the Bible are likely to have actually been miracles. I single out the Resurrection because it is the main thing that makes Christianity possibly true and so it’s the main one that I personally need convincing of I am to embrace Christianity.

When I’m asking why God would expect us to believe it, I’m not asking why would God expect us to think he performed a miracle? Because logically, if God is God, He can perform any miracle! But what I’m asking is - why would our salvation hinge on our belief of a miracle in a point in history before our own existence where we can’t witness it ourselves and thus have to believe someone else’s recounting of the events in order to even hear about the occurrence, and then have to decide whether this someone else is telling us the truth or not without much way of really knowing - and if we reject what they’re telling us then we cam’t be saved?? It is strange to me - this idea that belief in some historical miracle is what makes us Christians and what leads to salvation.
 
AmbroseSJ said:
Very well put. IOW, you have not only explained your own difficulties succinctly, but you have hit the nail on the head as far as what ANY revealed religion must answer.

First realize that Divine Faith (as opposed to ordinary human faith) comes from God. You should pray to God for that Faith, like the Apostles themselves did.

Second, follow your conscience. Try to be aware and sensitive as to where your conscience is leading you.

Thirdly, be humble before God, and you WILL draw down His grace!
Click to expand...
I’m glad to find people who at least understand where I’m coming from. It’s comforting.

I have been praying… I probably should start another thread about prayer because I have some thoughts/questions on how that works…
 
D0UBTFIRE said:
No, right now because I’m questioning the Resurrection so intensely, I don’t believe that any other miracles claimed in the Bible are likely to have actually been miracles. I single out the Resurrection because it is the main thing that makes Christianity possibly true and so it’s the main one that I personally need convincing of I am to embrace Christianity.

When I’m asking why God would expect us to believe it, I’m not asking why would God expect us to think he performed a miracle? Because logically, if God is God, He can perform any miracle! But what I’m asking is - why would our salvation hinge on our belief of a miracle in a point in history before our own existence where we can’t witness it ourselves and thus have to believe someone else’s recounting of the events in order to even hear about the occurrence, and then have to decide whether this someone else is telling us the truth or not without much way of really knowing - and if we reject what they’re telling us then we cam’t be saved?? It is strange to me - this idea that belief in some historical miracle is what makes us Christians and what leads to salvation.
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Maybe it’s as simple as testing your ability to have faith. If God is so far beyond one’s comprehension, it may be the only way to communicate with Him is through faith. It is possible that any more “ordinary” means of communication with Him would give one an incorrect idea of Him. Perhaps that’s why He sent His Son, to establish a means of faith, that is, His Church.

peace
steve
 
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