Why would God honor Jephthah's deal?

[Mike_from_NJ]

So, what better alternative do you see?

Those examples have little to do with the subject. Why not make a closer example - A stupidly asking some B not to kill him (and some of A’s friends) and promising to kill his daughter in B’s honour if B won’t kill him? Well, do you think B should actually allow himself to be blackmailed into killing A and his friends in such case?

Or do you understand that in this case the correct answer is not to kill A and his friends, and if A still commits murder, that’s his fault - not a fault of anyone else?

That’s a false dichotomy. God could have done a great number of things:

1. The Spirit of the Lord had earlier came upon Jepthah, so he could have communicated with Jephthah to consider rescinding the vow.
2. The Lord could have convinced the elders of Gilead to support someone other than Jephthah.
3. He could have had Jephthah die in combating the Ammonites.
4. He could have Jepthah injured in battle with the Ammonites, where someone else steps up to take Jepthah’s place (so that the Ammonites are defeated but are put in Jephthah’s replacement’s hands).
5. He could have the Ammonites retreat.
6. He could have a chicken come out to greet Jephthah on his return home.
7. He could have interrupted Jephthah’s daughter being made a burnt offering like he did with Abraham and Isaac.
8. He could have summoned a mighty wind to magically whisk Jephthah’s daugher away before being burnt.

That was less than 5 minutes of brainstorming – all things that are within the power of God and would be far more moral. I find that believers are far more likely to limit God than non-believers.

 

[Thom18]

That’s another topic, but God certainly ordered the death of humans by humans.

Yes, but that’s quite different from human sacrifice- which is sort of the entire point of this thread.

That is a dangerous precedent in interpreting scripture. Scripture can be the exact opposite of true so long as the author (a divinely-inspired author) thought is was true. By its nature apologetics is a series of retreat positions (and this is a major one). Each retreat undercuts the alleged strength and validity of scripture.

The Bible says God interceded to bring Jepthah victory over the Ammonites. It’s not that it just so happens that Jephthah got the Ammonites into his hand, it was deliberate act by God. It’s literally described in the next sentence after the vow using the exact same language.

Let’s be clear: I have little doubt that God wanted Jephthah to be victorious in his battle. What I doubt is that He necessarily had to approve of Jephthah’s bargain in order to desire his victory.

 

[Kei]

In my humble, unscholarly opinion, probably paid a fine or a related price that it was judged worthy to the Temple.
Leviticus 27 speaks about the price of a person concerning a vow.
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons shall be for the Lord by thy estimation.

And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.

And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.

And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.

And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels.

But if he be poorer than thy estimation, then he shall present himself before the priest, and the priest shall value him; according to his ability that vowed shall the priest value him.

Jephthah doing what you think he’s doing would be in direct violation of Deuteromomy 18:10.

 

[Bruce_Killian]

Where does it say that God accepted Jephthah’s vow?

Two ways: 1) Jephthah was filled with the Spirit before he made the vow Judg 11:29. 2) Jephthah makes it into the hall of faith Hebrews 11:32. I believe it is most likely Jephthah’s enemies killed his daughter, then he offered has as a holocaust as a type of Jesus very much like Isaac was a type of Jesus in Genesis 22.
Grace and peace,
Bruce

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Yes, but that’s quite different from human sacrifice- which is sort of the entire point of this thread.

The only difference between deaths ordered by God and human sacrifices from God are solely a matter of semantics.

Let’s be clear: I have little doubt that God wanted Jephthah to be victorious in his battle. What I doubt is that He necessarily had to approve of Jephthah’s bargain in order to desire his victory.

What does the Bible not say? It does not say that God ignored the vow. In fact, it’s adding to scripture (a no-no for believers) since the author of Judges is clearly saying God did what Jephthah asked in his vow. I find people add to scripture or try to play with the words in order to defend the indefensible.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

In my humble, unscholarly opinion, probably paid a fine or a related price that it was judged worthy to the Temple.

Three problems:

1. His daughter spent two months in the hills before he paid off his vow. That wouldn’t be necessary if he paid a fine or did something similar.
2. The last verse in Judges 11 says that it was annual tradition for women to go out for four days to commemorate her. Commemorations are done for people who died or did great things. Your version wouldn’t cause commemorations. The reason why there are statues of Nathan Hale is because he was hanged fighting for American independence, not because he paid a fine.
3. Judges 11:39 literally says that Jephthah “did to her as he had vowed”. It doesn’t say he did a replacement vow or a fine. He did what he vowed. You don’t want to add to scripture, especially when it completely contradicts existing scripture.

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

I believe it is most likely Jephthah’s enemies killed his daughter, then he offered has as a holocaust as a type of Jesus very much like Isaac was a type of Jesus in Genesis 22.

There are several problem with that explanation:

1. His daughter greets him at the door dancing with timbrels. The dead don’t dance or play percussion instruments.
2. After he explains the vow he made to her, she told him that he must honor it. The dead don’t try to convince their fathers to honor vows.
3. She goes to the hills for two months, then later returns to her father. The dead are immobile.

 

[Zaccheus]

God did not honor Jephthah’s deal.

God gave Israel the victory in spite of Jephthah’s evil vow, not because of it. God was protecting His people. Had Jephthah made a good vow or no vow at all God would still have given Israel the victory.

 

[AdherentToRome]

In reading three seperate commentaries on this verse it would seem that the majority of early scholarship from the era of the church Fathers concludes she was sacrificed (slightly more modern scholarship however tends to not agree). However, the justifications on behalf of God generally relies on the fact that improper judgement was used on behalf of the Father who failed to understand God, but that he is not mortally at fault since it was a devotion to God that resulted in the mutually willing sacrifice of his daughter (who accepted her fate). I would actually advise reading Haydocks commentary on the matter since he outlines the different schools of thought including justifications and the forum does not allow for enough room to post the whole section, I believe it is online as public domain.

 

[Benadam]

HOLD UP HOLD UP!!

You don’t understand the story.

You think Jephthah’s daughter died because of this.

What actually happened was that she was brought into consecration by the Temple, and in fact as the vow was public she probably purposefully did this, and never had to know a man.

If you don’t know the ancient Jewish context I can see why you might misunderstand.

That, if true, would lead to the thought that this nameless girl, is a type and foreshadowing of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[Kei]

Three problems:

His daughter spent two months in the hills before he paid off his vow. That wouldn’t be necessary if he paid a fine or did something similar.
The last verse in Judges 11 says that it was annual tradition for women to go out for four days to comm

It’s not letting me quote the whole thing for some reason, so I apologize for not doing so, but:
That answer was in response to your question (the what ifs), NOT necessarily what I think happened to his daughter (which is consecration and she never was able to be married, do work in general, with the redemption price also being paid).
1 doesn’t matter to what I think happened to the actual person, which is that the redemption price happened and she was consecrated. These last months were her prior to consecration
3 If there is law as to what happens in this vow, then fulfilling the law about it could rightly be called doing what he had vowed in Judaism. What he would have done is that.
Now about 2, the word for lament means to ascribe praise to or celebrate. Here it is used (only one other time) in the Bible Judges 5:11 "They that are delivered from the noise of archers in the places of drawing water, there shall they rehearse the righteous acts of the LORD, even the righteous acts toward the inhabitants of his villages in Israel: then shall the people of the LORD go down to the gates.
It would be more of celebrating a noble sacrifice of the girl.

Note that the text says she was bewailing her virginity. Not her life, or her getting killed by her father.

It just makes sense that it would be a consecration wherein the price is paid and she never works or has children, as opposed to something explicitly denied in the Law, which to me just doesn’t make sense why someone such as Jephthah would do.

 

[MPat]

That’s a false dichotomy. God could have done a great number of things:

1. The Spirit of the Lord had earlier came upon Jepthah, so he could have communicated with Jephthah to consider rescinding the vow.
2. The Lord could have convinced the elders of Gilead to support someone other than Jephthah.
3. He could have had Jephthah die in combating the Ammonites.
4. He could have Jepthah injured in battle with the Ammonites, where someone else steps up to take Jepthah’s place (so that the Ammonites are defeated but are put in Jephthah’s replacement’s hands).
5. He could have the Ammonites retreat.
6. He could have a chicken come out to greet Jephthah on his return home.
7. He could have interrupted Jephthah’s daughter being made a burnt offering like he did with Abraham and Isaac.
8. He could have summoned a mighty wind to magically whisk Jephthah’s daugher away before being burnt.

That was less than 5 minutes of brainstorming – all things that are within the power of God and would be far more moral. I find that believers are far more likely to limit God than non-believers.

Very good. (Looking at your finishing words I get the impression you though I didn’t expect or want to see the answer. But, you see, I did.)

Now that you have listed some alternatives, let’s move on: why do you think they are better?

For example, try making “income statements” for them. They are not a very good heuristic for morality (for example, they do not allow finding good but “suboptimal” actions), but at least I suspect that such heuristic is similar to the one you are going to prefer. And I think that they might lead to something interesting.

As I see, the original has “income” of one lesson about rash vows, “expenses” of one death.

Now, let’s say, the third alternative you mention loses the “income” and still has one death of “expenses”.

Doesn’t look that much more “profitable”…

Also, perhaps you should consider the “prices”. Am I guessing right that you do consider the lesson as less valuable than the death (in absolute value, ignoring sign)?

 

[Bruce_Killian]

There are several problem with that explanation:

His daughter greets him at the door dancing with timbrels. The dead don’t dance or play percussion instruments.
After he explains the vow he made to her, she told him that he must honor it. The dead don’t try to convince their fathers to honor vows.
She goes to the hills for two months, then later returns to her father. The dead are immobile.

As a type Mary greeted the returning Jesus at His tomb when He returned in victory with timbrel. Jephthah daughter did not die until sometime after she left on her 2 month mourning, but she convinced her father to fulfill his vow before she left. I believe she was killed when she returned to her father.
grace and peace,
Bruce

 

[De_Maria]

While I agree that this has all the earmarks of a deal with the Devil, the Bible (which the Catechism says is true in one of four senses) says clearly that it was God who did what Jephthah asked.

Where?

I think that you are neglecting to consider the times and conditions during which these words were written. The Catholic Church says:

CCC#110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture…

Let me give you an example of my own error in reading the OT. I must have read this verse 100 times before I finally realized that I had to be wrong.

1 Kings 19:Elisha Becomes Elijah’s Disciple
19 So he set out from there, and found Elisha son of Shaphat, who was plowing. There were twelve yoke of oxen ahead of him, and he was with the twelfth. Elijah passed by him and threw his mantle over him. 20 He left the oxen, ran after Elijah, and said, “Let me kiss my father and my mother, and then I will follow you.” Then Elijah said to him, “Go back again; for what have I done to you?” 21 He returned from following him, took the yoke of oxen, and slaughtered them; using the equipment from the oxen, he boiled their flesh, and gave it to the people, and they ate. Then he set out and followed Elijah, and became his servant.

For the longest time, I assumed that Elisha had followed Elijah, maybe 15 minutes later. But think about it.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d with Mike

First, he slaughtered a YOKE of oxen. That means, at least 2.
Next, Jews aren’t allowed to eat anything with blood in it. So, the meat has to be drained of blood.
Third, he boiled the flesh, so he had to find cauldrons big enough to cook the entire yoke of oxen, or he had to cut them up into small pieces and boil them in small pots. That would take an eternity.
Then, it says, he fed the “people”. In other words, it wasn’t just father and mother. It was an entire family or perhaps village. After all, if it was just father and mother, it would have been a complete waste of good meat. I don’t think two people could have eaten that much, do you?

See, the assumptions in this text are completely missed by those of us who do not have Jewish roots.

Elijah is a very famous person. He is an elite. Only Moses is higher than him in the rank of Prophet. So, when he chose Elisha, it was like Bill Gates had walked through your neighborhood and pointed you out and said, “hey, you’re going to inherit a third of my empire”.

At that moment, I think most people would celebrate. And that’s what Elisha. And then, perhaps days later, he followed Elijah.

So, back to our story. What should we take into account when reading about Jephthah?

1. the crude means of writing.

Writing things down on parchment was a very difficult process. That means that they couldn’t go into detail. So, the account of Jephthah’s walk was not a step by step account.

1. This was a walking culture. They didn’t have cars.

I remember when I was a kid and I rode my bike for what I thought was hours and hours. And I went to parts of the city and even the country, that I had never seen before. I thought I had traveled for miles.

Then I started driving and I could get to those places in minutes.

What I’m getting at, is that you think that because of the proximity of the words on the written page, they must have occurred the same say in Jephthah’s actual account. But that isn’t necessarily true.

1. And finally, the Catholic Church also teaches:

112 1. Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”…

Scripture, the Word of God, teaches that God does not inspire evil (James 1:13).

So, no, the Bible doesn’t say that. You are reading that into the Bible.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I asked you to defend God’s actions and you didn’t spare a single word to do so, instead talking solely about Jephthah. I’ll ask again. How would you defend God’s actions?

Not to be rude but God needs NO, zip, zero, zilch, nada, “defense” from me or anybody else and I don’t care what you “asked” me to do. I told you what I thought and opined that you are way off base and missing the point. I don’t take orders from you or respond the way you “ask” me to, I say what I think is right. YMMV.

 

[Hereiam]

it seems quite odd that he would give the Ammonites to the hands of Jephthah. It comes off more like a deal with the devil.

Your missing the point of the story…Its typology, and Jephthah’s daughter is a type, (pointing from the lesser to the greater) of the BVM.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Mike!

I think that you are confused… just a tad:

29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” 32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the Lord gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.” 36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.” (Judges 11)

You are supposing that what is written has been a contractual mandate made by God–it isn’t.

You are intimating that if a man makes a vow to God God has the obligation to accept it.

You are determining that God acted wrong by either not allowing Jephathah to fail or by not stopping him from making the absurd vow or by not keeping him from committing to the vow he made.

How many times do we not brake the vows we make to God? How many of us get struck down for not keeping our vows?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

So when man determines to do evil God should step in and keeping from taking action? Would man would not then have to hold God responsible for every sin/disobedience he commits?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

Exactly!

The mandates are there… as well as the consequences and the remedies.

Man’s pride interferes, daily if not hourly/by the minute, in God’s Salvific Plan. Yet, it is man’s will that he surrenders to God or oppose Him (St. John 3:14-21).

Maran atha!

Angel