Why would God include carnivory, parasitism, and disease in creation?

[tonyrey]

Granted that God have made the world like such, then what next? We would complain about the lack of autonomy, at the obvious fact that God keep mingling with everything we do, even our atomic changes. But doing so would violate not only the human freewill, but also the freedom for earth and its organisms to grow and develop.

Spot on!

 

[Poseidon]

More piecemeal changes - with no explanation of the mechanism by which they could be effected in a world dominated by the laws of nature…

God’s not so omnipotent when he’s limited by the laws of nature. I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree here, because all our exchange has turned into is me saying God shouldn’t be limited and you saying he should be. It’s not exactly going anywhere, and it’s a bit frustrating to me.

 

[tonyrey]

The problem I was never given the gift of being able to find joy in suffering.

No one finds joy** in** suffering but in offering suffering like Our Lord.

 

[Sair]

No one finds joy** in** suffering but in offering suffering like Our Lord.

And does the suffering need to be offered for the sake of some discernible benefit to a loved one, or to a needing person, or for some other worthy cause? Or just for a pipe-dream of future salvation? Because as far as the former are concerned, there is most certainly a satisfaction to be had in effort and suffering and deprivation. For the sake of a supposed deity who already has no need of our suffering, who could have prevented it if he chose, and who for all intents and purposes doesn’t even exist, the purpose of suffering, if it even had one, would be greatly diminished…

 

[PRmerger]

And does the suffering need to be offered for the sake of some discernible benefit to a loved one, or to a needing person, or for some other worthy cause? Or just for a pipe-dream of future salvation? Because as far as the former are concerned, there is most certainly a satisfaction to be had in effort and suffering and deprivation. For the sake of a supposed deity who already has no need of our suffering, who could have prevented it if he chose, and who for all intents and purposes doesn’t even exist, the purpose of suffering, if it even had one, would be greatly diminished…

The former. There is no need to offer up our suffering for the sake of a deity.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

This world doesn’t necessarily get rid of moral evil, the evil caused by free will. It only gets rid of natural evil - that evil that humans cause. And would it really be so bad to have him messing with our genetic code, since it’s all for the better? Certainly I can think of a few little changes that I’d want him to work out if he could. Hemophilia? Down syndrome? No one would miss genetic diseases.

All the better for whom? For our subjective world view? And you are quite right when said that genetic disease is undesirable, no parents want that for their children. Granted God takes away these diseases, then what? Evil will still exist, because men would still exist. So even if the child does not suffer from schizophrenia or Down syndrome, he/she would still suffer from other natural disasters or even from her own species.

This remind me of the ancient Greco-Roman flood myth. The story goes relatively similar to the Biblical version, with the gods angry at men and punish them by way of water. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha however were warned by Deucalion’s father, Prometheus. After the flood receded, Prometheus instructed them to throw a stone behind their backs to create a new breed of humankind. This new breed, according to Prometheus, would be better because they are created from stone and not clay. Yet, evil does not cease to exist. Still after mingling with our genetics, creating an entirely new breed, mankind is still capable of evil. Why? Because we have freewill, and while it is beautiful and comforting to know we have the capability to change our own fate, it is also horrifying to know our capacity to perform evil.

 

[tonyrey]

This remind me of the ancient Greco-Roman flood myth. The story goes relatively similar to the Biblical version, with the gods angry at men and punish them by way of water. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha however were warned by Deucalion’s father, Prometheus. After the flood receded, Prometheus instructed them to throw a stone behind their backs to create a new breed of humankind. This new breed, according to Prometheus, would be better because they are created from stone and not clay. Yet, evil does not cease to exist. Still after mingling with our genetics, creating an entirely new breed, mankind is still capable of evil. Why? Because we have freewill, and while it is beautiful and comforting to know we have the capability to change our own fate, it is also horrifying to know our capacity to perform evil.

Independence is priceless but there is a price to pay!

 

[shoe]

In the beginning God did not “include carnivory, parasitism, and disease in creation” nor did He wish for their existence; rather, God created a perfect world where He walked “in paradise at the afternoon air” with man and woman; where the man and woman were innocent and “were not ashamed”; and where God provided “all manner of trees, fair to behold, and pleasant to eat.” But God also provided the conditions (free will) that made it possible for a perfectly created people either to accept or reject His loving kindness. God will never force or program mankind into making the perfect choice; nor will He ever rob mankind of their free will to make choices. (Basically, the reasons God created human beings was to fellowship and to share His love and other attributes with them.) And as a sign of their faithfulness to Him, God asked mankind to do just one simple thing, which was not to eat from a certain tree. Mankind rebelled against that one easy request, ate from the tree, and brought a curse and therefore brought things like “carnivory, parasitism, and disease” to the world. The reason, then, that disease, decay, and suffering exist in the world today is not that God created those things, but that the first created human beings began to use their free-will gift in choosing the ways of self instead of the ways of God.

 

[tonyrey]

No one finds joy* in***

Certainly.

Or just for a pipe-dream of future salvation?

It isn’t for the pipe-dream of future extinction!

Because as far as the former are concerned, there is most certainly a satisfaction to be had in effort and suffering and deprivation.

For the sake of a supposed deity who already has no need of our suffering…

.

…who could have prevented it if he chose…

Only by creating zombies!

… and who for all intents and purposes doesn’t even exist…

For those who opt for the blind Goddess

… the purpose of suffering, if it even had one, would be greatly diminished…

In a Godless universe it would be cease to exist - like everything else.

 

[tonyrey]

More piecemeal changes - with no explanation of the mechanism by which they could be effected in a world dominated by the laws of nature…

The difference is that you haven’t answered my questions, e.g. about the mechanism which achieves the piecemeal improvements. Science is particularly concerned with “How?” rather than “Why?”

 

[_L]

What’s so bad about these things? What is so bad about suffering, pain and death?

Suffering is perhaps the biggest incentive for people to change their lives, it is one of the fuels that powers us to perfection.

Only in a world with suffering, pain, and death can we ever hope to live truly virtuously. To know what it means to love your enemies, to know what it means to forgive and be forgiven, to be courageous in the face of fear, pain, death. To know what it means to persevere, to exemplify determination, to know what it means to honor someone’s memory, to rise when you fall. It’s really quite beautiful if you reflect on it, that there is something in us that acts out in such admirable qualities only in the face of things we see as terrible. In fact, these qualities can only exist for us, in a world full of suffering and death.

 

[tonyrey]

What’s so bad about these things? What is so bad about suffering, pain and death?

Suffering is perhaps the biggest incentive for people to change their lives, it is one of the fuels that powers us to perfection.

Only in a world with suffering, pain, and death can we ever hope to live truly virtuously. To know what it means to love your enemies, to know what it means to forgive and be forgiven, to be courageous in the face of fear, pain, death. To know what it means to persevere, to exemplify determination, to know what it means to honor someone’s memory, to rise when you fall. It’s really quite beautiful if you reflect on it, that there is something in us that acts out in such admirable qualities only in the face of things we see as terrible. In fact, these qualities can only exist for us, in a world full of suffering and death.

:thumbsup:A refreshingly positive post in stark contrast to the doom and gloom of the cynics who exaggerate the drawbacks of life and take all its opportunities for granted as if we should have everything for nothing!

 

[BobCatholic]

I don’t think any God would be pleased at suicide…

Not suicide. Martyrdom. You will notice I’m giving my life for my faith. That will finally make God happy with me. Until then I am one useless person to God. I have no value.

 

[BobCatholic]

No one finds joy** in** suffering but in offering suffering like Our Lord.

And how is that different from Masochism? Using the definition #2 and #3.

it is not.

God wants us to be Masochists.

 

[BobCatholic]

Granted that God have made the world like such, then what next? We would complain about the lack of autonomy, at the obvious fact that God keep mingling with everything we do, even our atomic changes. But doing so would violate not only the human freewill, but also the freedom for earth and its organisms to grow and develop.

As long as I am imperfect, I do not have free will, I have drastically reduced free will.

Who cares about autonomy when I am punished for Adam and Eve’s sin anyway.

 

[utah_rose]

I believe that possibly these didn’t occur until Adam and Eve’s sin of disobedience, because then creation became disordered. I also think that until their sin, both they AND the animals only ate vegetation.

Now, there could well have been parasites as those on cattle or other things but for a good reason.

God did give us dominion though over all the other creatures, but all the other creatures kill for FOOD, not for enjoyment as some humans do.

All in all though, I think that most is the result of original sin. In Revelation though we are told that in the “new earth” the lion will lie down next to the lamb", so there will be no more of killing for food or anything else.

 

[BobCatholic]

What’s so bad about these things? What is so bad about suffering, pain and death?

Because not all suffering is good. Not all pain has value.

Suffering is perhaps the biggest incentive for people to change their lives, it is one of the fuels that powers us to perfection.

That is not true for all suffering.

My mom suffered excruciating back pains the last few years of her life. What was she supposed to change? There was no cure as she saw doctor after doctor, who could not find any solution. What could she change to make her pain go away? Nothing.

And then there’s my brother in law who has a busted up knee from a work accident. He’s in pain daily. Excruciating. He can’t even get a knee replacement because the worker’s comp insurance company won’t pay for it. So, what should he change in his life to make the pain go away? Nothing.

Then there is me who cannot find a job. I went back to school and got an Associate’s degree, a graduate certificate, two certifications and a license during my over a year of unemployment. It made no difference. Still can’t find a job. Praying doesn’t help, God does not want to help. He does not have any generosity. So what can I change to make the unemployment go away? Nothing. I’m just doomed.

There is such a thing as pain that has zero incentive value.

 

[Poseidon]

The difference is that you haven’t answered my questions, e.g. about the mechanism which achieves the piecemeal improvements. Science is particularly concerned with “How?” rather than “Why?”

Since we’re discussing the “why” here and not the “how” I don’t think that your question is really relevant. We’ve already discussed that your “question” is impossible for me to answer, since I’m not an ecologist, and even if I were one who could give you an answer I would literally have to write books for you. At this point your insistence that I give you an answer really just seems to me to be a stall tactic because you have no other way to answer my question, so you reject the premise of God’s omnipotence by saying that because I can’t come up with an exact method to do something then God can’t either. Please, if you want to contribute something useful to this discussion then do so, but if you’re just going to try to stall me then please just stop.

 

[Poseidon]

Not suicide. Martyrdom. You will notice I’m giving my life for my faith. That will finally make God happy with me. Until then I am one useless person to God. I have no value.

No, it’s definitely suicide. You were talking about going over and preaching specifically so you could be killed for it. No one goes out intending to be a martyr. That’s just craziness.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

You have it backward. Man did all that by desiring to become like gods. God allows it - He does not create it.

Thank you po18guy, And I believe most of these things happened after the fall. The Garden of Eden seemed peaceful enough, but that wasn’t good enough for our human nature.

The Catechism asks, “Why was man created?” and the answer given in the Catechism is “To show forth the goodness of God.” The* goodness* of God, not the opposite was God’s first loving intent. It was we as humans who allowed all the heartache to enter into the world.