Why would God include carnivory, parasitism, and disease in creation?

[PRmerger]

A nice Life insurance policy which has my family as beneficiaries says YES I CAN PROVIDE if I am dead.

Mind you, I’m not considering suicide, but I am aware that I am worth more dead than alive.

That statement applies to most of us who have life insurance.

 

[Poseidon]

One would have thought this would be a walk in the park for an omnipotent, omniscient god.

Tonyrey doesn’t seem to share this view, as he has continually insisted that his god is limited by some sort of natural law that doesn’t allow nature to exist any other way. Which of course means that God isn’t omnipotent, since he’s limited, but somehow this is glossed over. Doublethink?

If I have, indeed, failed to address these supposedly “pertinent” questions and “valid” points (where they didn’t represent an attempt at misdirection or a deliberate misunderstanding) then I am hardly alone. I am still noticing a conspicuous absence of explanation for a number of highly pertinent questions from my side, such as how a supernatural being interacts with the natural world in the first place, and why a god for whom all things are possible chose to create a world in which the suffering of sentient beings was inevitable. Is your god really such a sadist?

And this is the same scientific success which you claim points to our ability to “transcend” nature! Please make up your mind. Again you appear to be losing sight of the fact that for a naturalist, disease, predation and natural disasters are all perfectly explicable the context of an evolved universe. We have no bone to pick with natural forces - the only thing that could make these aspects of the world morally reprehensible is the suggestion, made by theists, that these were intentional design features brought about by a god who could have done things differently, by his very definition. An omnipotent god, in order to do any particular thing, must choose to do that thing - he cannot be constrained by circumstance, since that makes a nonsense of the claim to omnipotence.

Undoubtedly such constraints come to bear upon human designers. But you don’t appear to have a coherent explanation for why predation, disease, parasitism and natural disasters are necessarily consistent with the puposes of a supposedly benevolent and all-powerful deity who wants to be worshipped by free-willed beings. You don’t have an answer for why the suffering of innocent animals, for example, is necessary for humans to freely choose to believe in your god. When pressed, you have responded that it is up to us, as nonbelievers, to explain how your god functions!

I couldn’t have put it better myself!

 

[Sair]

Tonyrey doesn’t seem to share this view, as he has continually insisted that his god is limited by some sort of natural law that doesn’t allow nature to exist any other way. Which of course means that God isn’t omnipotent, since he’s limited, but somehow this is glossed over. Doublethink?

There certainly does seem to be a reluctance to take “omnipotence” to its logical conclusion, perhaps because the concept itself, if pushed that far, entails contradictions - such as god being able to make a rock he can’t lift, and so forth. This is usually circumvented by insisting that omnipotence in fact entails the ability to do everything logically possible, thus ruling out the ability to do things that destroy the ability to do certain other things. Be that as it may, as I think I’ve demonstrated in my previous post, there’s no apparent reason to suppose it was logically contradictory or impossible for god to create a world free of suffering, or at least with significantly less suffering than obtains, even if the ultimate intention was to produce beings with free will.

I couldn’t have put it better myself!

Why, thank you! :tiphat:

 

[tonyrey]

…For philosophy, as a discipline, to ignore science and go haring off on metaphysical magical mystery tours seems like an absurd and pointless exercise…

The most impressive and majestic example of a metaphysical magical mystery tour is the materialist’s metamorphosis of mindless mud into men and women…

You did, in point of fact, by declaring that the existence of free-willed creatures with the ability to choose to worship god is the ultimate end of “creation through evolution”.

Please cite my precise statement because I am constantly being misrepresented…

I rather suspect that Poseidon is quite capable of reading back through the thread.

Your statement was not on this thread…

And it’s quite true that I reject Classical Theism for multiple reasons, but in large part for the same reason Christopher Hitchens rejected it - at their core, all the monotheisms are totalitarian, and although they may preach the value of free will and free thought, they condemn anyone who actually attempts to exercise these faculties.

Yet another argumentum ad hominem. Moreover totalitarian regimes based on dialectical materialism have massacred millions of men, women and children.

One would have thought this would be a walk in the park for an omnipotent, omniscient god.

Yet another evasion. How could every harmful action be prevented?

If I have, indeed, failed to address these supposedly “pertinent” questions and “valid” points (where they didn’t represent an attempt at misdirection or a deliberate misunderstanding) then I am hardly alone.

I have certainly not left a long trail of unanswered posts behind me…

I am still noticing a conspicuous absence of explanation for a number of highly pertinent questions from my side, such as how a supernatural being interacts with the natural world in the first place…

Can you explain how matter produces mind?

…and why a god for whom all things are possible chose to create a world in which the suffering of sentient beings was inevitable.

Can you explain how sentience is possible without suffering?

Is your god really such a sadist?

The only sadists in this context are those who inflict needless anguish on people by making out that persons are mindless machines which exist for no reason.

You still need to explain the precise mechanisms.

I have not claimed to know how misery and suffering can be eliminated.

Man’s attempts to improve the world have frequently ended in disaster with pandemics, deformities, the extinction of species and the diseases of civilisation - not to mention the prospect of a nuclear holocaust.

And this is the same scientific success which you claim points to our ability to “transcend” nature.

It is indeed the same. Corruptio optima pessima.

Please make up your mind.

According to materialists my mind - and yours - is made up for me!

Again you appear to be losing sight of the fact that for a naturalist, disease, predation and natural disasters are all perfectly explicable the context of an evolved universe.

You are losing sight of the fact that for a person who believes in Design truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty, love, persons, life, development, organization, insight, understanding and purpose are inadequately explained by specks of inanimate dust…

We have no bone to pick with natural forces.

SInce you believe in nothing else that statement is superfluous!

… the only thing that could make these aspects of the world morally reprehensible…

How can anything be morally reprehensible in an amoral universe?

… is the suggestion, made by theists, that these were intentional design features brought about by a god who could have done things differently, by his very definition.

In an immensely complex system with countless individuals pursuing different goals it is the height of absurdity to expect every single event to conform to one set of intentions. Things could certainly have been done differently but they could not possibly produce a mythical Utopia with all the advantages and opportunities **of this world. **Only a mentally retarded person expects to have everything for nothing…

An omnipotent god, in order to do any particular thing, must choose to do that thing - he cannot be constrained by circumstance, since that makes a nonsense of the claim to omnipotence.

In other words God could constantly defeat the purposes for which He created the world. He could indeed but inconsistency is a sign of insanity… When a system is created the designer is constrained by the need for consistency with the purposes for which the system is created. There is no point in establishing the laws of nature if they are going to be constantly suspended. Omnipotence does not mean anarchy!

Undoubtedly such constraints come to bear upon human designers.

Upon all designers without exception. The design itself imposes constraints.

But you don’t appear to have a coherent explanation for why predation, disease, parasitism and natural disasters are necessarily consistent with the puposes of a supposedly benevolent and all-powerful deity who wants to be worshipped by free-willed beings.

You don’t have a coherent explanation of how they could be consistent.

You don’t have an answer for why the suffering of innocent animals, for example, is necessary for humans to freely choose to believe in your god.

You don’t have an explanation of how suffering could be restricted to human beings.

When pressed, you have responded that it is up to us, as nonbelievers, to explain how your god functions!

It is up to you to explain how an accident-free, disease-free, conflict-free, disaster-free Utopia could be created.

 

[guanophore]

A nice Life insurance policy which has my family as beneficiaries says YES I CAN PROVIDE if I am dead.

Mind you, I’m not considering suicide, but I am aware that I am worth more dead than alive.

From a secular point of view, perhaps. The World measures worth by how much money and goods we can accumulate. God has a different standard of worth.

Besides, it is not up to you to decide how much you are worth, but Him. He made you, and it is for Him you have been created, to do the good works He has prepared for you, that you should walk in them.

2 Cor 10:12
12 Not that we venture to class or compare ourselves with some of those who commend themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another, and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding.

We are not to be comparing ourselves to the world, or measure ourselves by the worlds standards. We are to embrace the worth that God has made in and for us, about which He has spoken in his written word.

Matt 10:29-33
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will. 30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Embrace the worth your Father has given you, and stop denying HIm!

 

[tonyrey]

From a secular point of view, perhaps. The World measures worth by how much money and goods we can accumulate. God has a different standard of worth.

Besides, it is not up to you to decide how much you are worth, but Him. He made you, and it is for Him you have been created, to do the good works He has prepared for you, that you should walk in them.

2 Cor 10:12
12 Not that we venture to class or compare ourselves with some of those who commend themselves. But when they measure themselves by one another, and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding.

We are not to be comparing ourselves to the world, or measure ourselves by the worlds standards. We are to embrace the worth that God has made in and for us, about which He has spoken in his written word.

Matt 10:29-33
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s will. 30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Embrace the worth your Father has given you, and stop denying HIm!

It is not for us to decide when it is time for us to die…

 

[Sair]

The most impressive and majestic example of a metaphysical magical mystery tour is the materialist’s metamorphosis of mindless mud into men and women…

Please cite my precise statement because I am constantly being misrepresented…
Your statement was not on this thread…
Yet another argumentum ad hominem. Moreover totalitarian regimes based on dialectical materialism have massacred millions of men, women and children.
Yet another evasion. How could every harmful action be prevented?
I have certainly not left a long trail of unanswered posts behind me…
Can you explain how matter produces mind?
Can you explain how sentience is possible without suffering?
The only sadists in this context are those who inflict needless anguish on people by making out that persons are mindless machines which exist for no reason.
I have not claimed to know how misery and suffering can be eliminated.
It is indeed the same. Corruptio optima pessima.
According to materialists my mind - and yours - is made up for me!
You are losing sight of the fact that for a person who believes in Design truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty, love, persons, life, development, organization, insight, understanding and purpose are inadequately explained by specks of inanimate dust…
SInce you believe in nothing else that statement is superfluous!
How can anything be morally reprehensible in an amoral universe?
In an immensely complex system with countless individuals pursuing different goals it is the height of absurdity to expect every single event to conform to one set of intentions. Things could certainly have been done differently but they could not possibly produce a mythical Utopia with all the advantages and opportunities **of this world. **Only a mentally retarded person expects to have everything for nothing…
In other words God could constantly defeat the purposes for which He created the world. He could indeed but inconsistency is a sign of insanity… When a system is created the designer is constrained by the need for consistency with the purposes for which the system is created. There is no point in establishing the laws of nature if they are going to be constantly suspended. Omnipotence does not mean anarchy!
Upon all designers without exception. The design itself imposes constraints.
You don’t have a coherent explanation of how they could be consistent.

You don’t have an explanation of how suffering could be restricted to human beings.

It is up to you to explain how an accident-free, disease-free, conflict-free, disaster-free Utopia could be created.

I’m afraid that if you really want me to respond to your “pertinent” questions, you’re going to have to do better than asking me to demonstrate your point of view for you…

 

[BobCatholic]

From a secular point of view, perhaps. The World measures worth by how much money and goods we can accumulate. God has a different standard of worth.

Yes. His standard of worth says “I know he’s suffering and asking for information on what to do next, I’ll just be silent. He is not worth a single answer from me.”

Embrace the worth your Father has given you, and stop denying HIm!

If I had such huge value as you say, God would have talked to me by now. He won’t tell me why he won’t give me a job. Why he doesn’t want to provide.

 

[guanophore]

Yes.  His standard of worth says "I know he's suffering and asking for information on what to do next, I'll just be silent.   He is not worth a single answer from me."

You sound like you are angry at God because you are not hearing what you want. He is not going to tell you anything new until you receive and and implement what He has already given you. God will let us believe and walk according to the devil’s lies if we so choose.

Until we accept His point of view about who we are, we will be miserable.

If I had such huge value as you say, God would have talked to me by now. He won’t tell me why he won’t give me a job. Why he doesn’t want to provide.

You are putting God into your little box. It is not up to you to decide how God shows your value to Him. You are so important to Him that He gave His life for you on the cross. When you spurn His sacrifice, you blaspheme against the HS.

Rom 5:6-11

6 While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man - though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die. 8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation.

You have been bought with a price, out of His Love, yet you refuse to receive that love!
You have been reconciled to God, but you insist on considering yourself as alienated from Him. What arrogance! How can any of us substitute our puny assessment of ourselves for His assesement of us! He has called us His sons, and has decided that through us, His glory will be made manifest to teh world.

You do not glorfiy God by denying your identity.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

You are not righteous because of your own doing, but by grace. You are His workmanship, and you have a responsibility to walk in the good works He has prepared for you to do.

 

[tonyrey]

Yes. His standard of worth says “I know he’s suffering and asking for information on what to do next, I’ll just be silent. He is not worth a single answer from me.”

If I had such huge value as you say, God would have talked to me by now. He won’t tell me why he won’t give me a job. Why he doesn’t want to provide.

Many of the saints had to endure the Dark Night of the Soul because the closer we are to God the greater the challenge we have to face. They experienced more intensely the anguish of Our Lord at the prospect of being betrayed by Judas, deserted by the Apostles, condemned by the Sanhedrin, rejected by Pilate, reviled by the Jews, tortured by the Romans, mocked by the bystanders and crucified by the soldiers. Everyone knew exactly what to expect if they were found guilty of subversion because executions were a common sight in Jerusalem…

Suffering is evil but we can transform it into an expression of our love for Jesus.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

I appreciate your depiction of a knight in armour, Kathryn, because even though I’m an idealist like Don Quijote (but I hope not so misguided) I’m also a half-Irish, half-English republican opposed to the monarchy, aristocracy and titles of any description and I have infinitely more respect for St Anthony than Sir Anthony!

I am half Irish/half Scot, so I completely understand. St. Anthony is far superior to "Sir’ anyone. We need an icon for everyday chivalry that doesn’t imply worldly monarchy. (The haloed icon :getholy: may have to do for now. ) I was thinking purely of Christian chivalry when selecting the knight in my previous reply, thinking of God’s Heavenly army. You are very good to remind us all of the vagaries of worldly monarchies. Thank you, tonyrey!
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

 

[Dangerzone]

Why would he create killer viruses and bacteria that cause so much death and pain?

To introduce us to the doctrine of suffering. Notice however, that not everyone gets these killer viruses and bacteria . So logic would dictate that God allows suffering for some, while others are spared from it.

Why? I don’t know.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

A nice Life insurance policy which has my family as beneficiaries says YES I CAN PROVIDE if I am dead.

Mind you, I’m not considering suicide, but I am aware that I am worth more dead than alive.

DearBobCatholic, I hope you don’t mind me saying that I am so sorry you are going through such trials. Life can be so rough at times! :hug3:A friend of mine was looking for work for over a year and it was so hard for her and her family, then suddenly, things changed for the better, almost miraculously. She had just signed up for RCIA, to begin in the autumn, and came to Mass with me the summer before, as I was her friend and sponsor. Our pastor chose one Sunday to talk about unemployment, and prayed for everyone there, and she was so touched by that. A few weeks later, she found her job. But so many are still looking for work.

I sometimes wonder about how different our culture of today is in our country (each person for his/herself) from the first century Christian era when “they had all things in common.” Do you think that is too much like socialism, or could it be possible to at least try to be more communally-minded?

I know that is is not just an intellectual experience to be out of work. It is so frustrating. So I hope it is all right if I remember you in my prayers, that something very good will come your way soon.

My personal feeling about God’s part in our suffering is that He is grieving with us: at the way society fails in helping citizens between jobs (with medical insurance, helping people keep their homes, etc.) and how people don’t help one another as Christ wants us to. If God had His way, we would have quite a different world.:heaven: Do you agree?

I just wish families and parishes would help as many people as possible. We all go through such rough challenges in this imperfect world.
I hope something wonderful comes your way. I believe God wants that too.

In Christ’s love,
Kathryn Ann:heaven::grouphug::hug1:

 

[guanophore]

Not craziness. It is the only way for me to make God happy.

None of us have the ability to “make God happy”, that is what is crazy about this idea. God loves everyone He creates, and He loved us enough to die for us. Nothing can separate us from His love but our own refusal to accept it.

I think you may want to see a counselor, or a priest. Because it most definitely is craziness.

This is definitely good advice.

If you know how I can make God happy and have my suffering stop, I’m open to ideas. So far, I’ve got none.

Sufering will be with us until we are with HIm in heaven. We can avoid it, and trying to do so only makes it worse. As the Title of the thread says, the answer is in the cross. We are crucified with Him, and put to death all of our earthly passions and desires, so that we can find peace of mind.

I did. Doesn’t help with my problem of unemployment, which is a result of God not loving me temporally.

This is a falsehood. Believing in falsehoods makes human beings dysfunctional. We are made for the Truth. Believing in lies causes us to be miserable.

That is the first time (and probably the last) I have heard God being blamed for unemployment! What men do (or don’t do) must count for nothing…

Blaming others is a common reaction to feeling angry that we are not getting our way.

 I blame God for _not_ providing.    As He promised.

You seem to be confused, Bob. God promised that all things would be added to those who seek first the Kingdom. The Kingdom of God starts with being in right relationship with God. One cannot be in right relationship with God if one is blaming God for one’s unpleasant and unwanted situation.

I do everything right and still can’t find a job.

No, Bob. Blaming God is not right.

3 degrees, 2 certifications, 2 certificates, 1 license, 10 years experience in one field, 1 in another 1/2 in a third. Clean driving record. Clean criminal record. Clean credit record. There is NO reason for me to be rejected except that there are no jobs. I even went back to school and got the two certifications recently and a degree to make myself more marketable. It didn’t work.

It sounds like you are depending entirely upon yourself. It might be that God wants to to relinquish all this, and trust entirely upon HIm.

I just can’t get past the computers who are screening people out.

God is much bigger than any computer.

Only temporally. Spiritually, God still loves me. God loves my soul. He hates my body.

How much am I supposed to suffer? Should I cut myself and bleed to make God happy? Maybe I can send myself to the hospital doing dangerous things to cause myself to suffer more.

He permits it. And wants me to be a masochist.

Yes. Since He does not permit us to be in the Garden of Eden. He punishes us for the Sins of Adam and Eve.

I had my sins forgiven. I even did indulgences. Indulgences take away the TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT (pay attention to that!) and I’m still out of work.

This means any of the following:

1. God did not forgive me and refuses to no matter how many times I go to confession. He has rejected and does not want me.
2. Indulgences do NOT remit temporal punishment, and thus the doctrine is false in that area.
3. God is unjust and punishes people for the sins of their ancestors.
4. God does not love me temporally.
5. Jesus didn’t take care of everything with his sacrifice. (Romans 8:23 - we are STILL not redeemed yet!)

I should go to Saudi Arabia and preach the gospel at Mecca and Medina. Muslims will slice my throat for that and I will finally make God happy with me.

I think you may need professional help there Bob. But you will be in my prayers.

 

[tonyrey]

I am half Irish/half Scot, so I completely understand. St. Anthony is far superior to "Sir’ anyone. We need an icon for everyday chivalry that doesn’t imply worldly monarchy. (The haloed icon :getholy: may have to do for now. ) I was thinking purely of Christian chivalry when selecting the knight in my previous reply, thinking of God’s Heavenly army. You are very good to remind us all of the vagaries of worldly monarchies. Thank you, tonyrey!
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

My post was sup-post to be a jest! But many a true word…

 

[Poseidon]

The most impressive and majestic example of a metaphysical magical mystery tour is the materialist’s metamorphosis of mindless mud into men and women…

That’s really more of a tour of science. The transformation of “mud to men” via evolution is 100% within the natural world, and therefore well within the realm of science.

Please cite my precise statement because I am constantly being misrepresented…

I’m not going to go back and find precise quotes, but you have suggested that free will is ultimately the goal of life on earth and thus suffering.

]Yet another evasion. How could every harmful action be prevented?

No one’s talking about every harmful action. We’re talking about three specific things: carnivory, parasitism, and disease.

I have certainly not left a long trail of unanswered posts behind me…

More like “unsatisfactorily answered posts.”

Can you explain how matter produces mind?
Can you explain how sentience is possible without suffering?

How does matter produce mind? Natural selection. God, however, could have simply created it (like our ostrich earlier - God doesn’t need to evolve the ostrich, he can just poof it into existence).
How is sentience possible without suffering? From an atheistic point of view, it isn’t, which is why atheists have no problem of evil (or the extension of it that we’re currently discussing). From a Christian POV, however, sentience is very possible without suffering. As with our ostrich, God could just magic sentient people into existence, and make them inclined to do good and disinclined to do evil (so while there may be a little suffering it is very slight, and doesn’t really hurt anyone).

The only sadists in this context are those who inflict needless anguish on people by making out that persons are mindless machines which exist for no reason.

I don’t think I’ve ever caused anyone anguish by telling them they’re a mindless machine, because that would be both stupid and untrue. However I agree with the first half of your statement: “The only sadists in this context are those who inflict needless anguish.” Since God is omnipotent and is capable of stopping all anguish, then any anguish he does inflict (or passively inflicts by allowing his creations to inflict it) is by definition needless. Someone dying in agony from ebola doesn’t add anything to God’s creation and so their agony is unnecessary, yet God allows it, when he could effortlessly stop it. If a doctor stood by and watched a patient writhe in agony for no reason and had painkillers but refused to administer them (when there was no reason not to administer them) we would rightly bring the doctor to court. Yet God is judged by a different standard somehow.

You are losing sight of the fact that for a person who believes in Design truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty, love, persons, life, development, organization, insight, understanding and purpose are inadequately explained by specks of inanimate dust…

And yet for many other people the “specks of inanimate dust” are a perfect explanation. Keep in mind that many of those people are far more knowledgeable about natural science than you are, and they are satisfied.

Since you believe in nothing else that statement is superfluous!
How can anything be morally reprehensible in an amoral universe?

Because we say it is, and humans are the only thing in the universe (that we know of) that even have morals. So yes, the universe, as in galaxies, planets, and stars, is amoral, but humans are not.

 

[Poseidon]

(continued from above)

In an immensely complex system with countless individuals pursuing different goals it is the height of absurdity to expect every single event to conform to one set of intentions. Things could certainly have been done differently but they could not possibly produce a mythical Utopia with all the advantages and opportunities **of this world. **

On the contrary. This universe is immensely complex to us humans, but to an infinitely intelligent deity it is incredibly simple. And if it was designed by this infinite deity for a single purpose then there is no reason to expect that every part of it wouldn’t work toward this purpose. Now if you’re going to tell me that God designed the AIDS virus specifically to slowly and painfully kill people, and ebola to swiftly and viciously kill people then fine, but you’ll have to give up the idea that God is all good. This is the crux of the dilemma: either God couldn’t have done it another way, in which case he is inept, or he chose to make it as bad as he did, in which case he is not all good.

Only a mentally retarded person expects to have everything for nothing…

Or someone who believes in a God who created everything from nothing. Also, I’d appreciate it if you’d keep your insults to yourself. We’re not in first grade here.

In other words God could constantly defeat the purposes for which He created the world. He could indeed but inconsistency is a sign of insanity… When a system is created the designer is constrained by the need for consistency with the purposes for which the system is created. There is no point in establishing the laws of nature if they are going to be constantly suspended. Omnipotence does not mean anarchy!
Upon all designers without exception. The design itself imposes constraints.

So why did God create those specific laws of nature? You seem to be taking the “God is inept” side instead of the “God is bad” side. You’re saying that God couldn’t have made nature any better, no matter what he did. There’s no possible way he could have made it even the tiniest bit better. every single disease is absolutely necessary for the earth to function. If we got rid of even one the whole earth’s ecosystem would collapse? Is that what you’re saying? Oh wait - what about smallpox? We got rid of that, and everything’s still here. You’re telling me that God had to make smallpox, and the earth wouldn’t have worked without it? I say no, and hold up the continued existence of life to prove it.

You don’t have a coherent explanation of how they could be consistent.

You don’t have an explanation of how suffering could be restricted to human beings.

Yes I do. I invoke God. God, the almighty, who can do literally anything, including design a completely different ecosystem that supports life without the evils we see in it now.

It is up to you to explain how an accident-free, disease-free, conflict-free, disaster-free Utopia could be created.

I said nothing in my OP about accident, conflict, or disaster. I said carnivory, disease, and parasitism. Also, I have said how they could exist - I play the trump, “all things are possible” card of God. It is up to you to explain why this card doesn’t work - why with God all things are not possible.

 

[Sair]

I said nothing in my OP about accident, conflict, or disaster. I said carnivory, disease, and parasitism. Also, I have said how they could exist - I play the trump, “all things are possible” card of God. It is up to you to explain why this card doesn’t work - why with God all things are not possible.

Thank you for taking up this thread of argument - you gave some good responses that I might not have thought of.

I would add a couple of points in support - primarily expanding upon your point about sentience being possible without suffering. The ultimate end of life, according to Christian doctrine, is bodily resurrection and eternal bliss in heaven (or eternal suffering in hell, for the likes of you and me!) hence it has to be possible to create bodily - presumably physical - beings that are capable of happiness but have no need to suffer. It’s difficult to see how an all-powerful god who had this end in mind would need to inflict the misery that obtains in the world in order to achieve it.

And speaking of the intended ends of creation, I am still interested in finding out why, if free will is a supernatural additive to human nature, it was necessary for the entire process of natural evolution to occur in order to arrive at free-willed creatures.

As Stephen Fry put it, with his characteristic eloquence and candour, “You can’t just say there’s a god because the world is beautiful. You have to account for bone cancer in children.” Is any person who dies prematurely and in pain really improved in some metaphysical sense by the experience? I fail to see how, and I don’t anticipate an explanation from the opposition - more likely it will be more questions asking me to demonstrate a point of view I don’t hold.

 

[PRmerger]

As Stephen Fry put it, with his characteristic eloquence and candour, “You can’t just say there’s a god because the world is beautiful. You have to account for bone cancer in children.”

I don’t think any apologist for Believers *just *says there’s a God because the world is beautiful.

Certainly, that* is* an argument in our arsenal, but no one uses that argument to stand alone.

Is any person who dies prematurely and in pain really improved in some metaphysical sense by the experience?

Perhaps. Perhaps not. But if they are Christian they can indeed improve* the world *by their redemptive suffering.

Not to mention it may be that their pain and suffering that’s being witnessed by their loved ones improves their loved ones. I know a boy whose sister has a severe disability and he now has great empathy for those who suffer. Prior to that he was one of those boys who ridiculed the mentally challenged.

 

[tonyrey]

The most impressive and majestic example of a metaphysical magical mystery tour is the materialist’s metamorphosis of mindless mud into men and women…

Your faith in the virtual omniscience of science and the virtual omnipotence of matter is a magnificent example of substitious credulity.

I’m not going to go back and find precise quotes, but you have suggested that free will is ultimately the goal of life on earth and thus suffering.

A false, unsubstantiated assertion. I have pointed out more than once that all life on this planet is intrinsically valuable (not just an opinion in the mind - according to materialists) and that the development of life has culminated in the existence of rational, autonomous beings whose abuse of free will has led to incalculable unnecessary suffering.

No one’s talking about every harmful action. We’re talking about three specific things: carnivory, parasitism, and disease.

It is a direct implication of the question - to which no one has ever presented even the semblance of a rational explanation.

I have certainly not left a long trail of unanswered posts behind me…

More like “unsatisfactorily answered posts.”

A gratuitous assertion in stark contrast to a verifiable fact.

How does matter produce mind?

Natural selection

How does matter produce natural selection?

God, however, could have simply created it (like our ostrich earlier - God doesn’t need to evolve the ostrich, he can just poof it into existence).

The instant Creation of a physical universe would not eliminate its inevitable limitations and imperfections.

How is sentience possible without suffering?

From an atheistic point of view, it isn’t, which is why atheists have no problem of evil (or the extension of it that we’re currently discussing). From a Christian POV, however, sentience is very possible without suffering. As with our ostrich, God could just magic sentient people into existence, and make them inclined to do good and disinclined to do evil (so while there may be a little suffering it is very slight, and doesn’t really hurt anyone).

The instant Creation of a physical universe would not eliminate its inevitable limitations and imperfections - or the inevitable power of genuinely autonomous beings - rather than robots - to choose evil.

The only sadists in this context are those who inflict needless anguish on people by making out that persons are mindless machines which exist for no reason.

I don’t think I’ve ever caused anyone anguish by telling them they’re a mindless machine, because that would be both stupid and untrue.

Many people have committed suicide because they have been brainwashed by humanist propaganda (that we are merely naked apes) into thinking that life is ultimately valueless, purposeless and meaningless.

However I agree with the first half of your statement: “The only sadists in this context are those who inflict needless anguish.” Since God is omnipotent and is capable of stopping all anguish, then any anguish he does inflict (or passively inflicts by allowing his creations to inflict it) is by definition needless. Someone dying in agony from ebola doesn’t add anything to God’s creation and so their agony is unnecessary, yet God allows it, when he could effortlessly stop it. If a doctor stood by and watched a patient writhe in agony for no reason and had painkillers but refused to administer them (when there was no reason not to administer them) we would rightly bring the doctor to court. Yet God is judged by a different standard somehow.

Your fantasy that God could prevent disease from occurring on this planet fails to provide the slightest explanation of the mechanisms by which such a feat could be effected.

You are losing sight of the fact that for a person who believes in Design truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty, love, persons, life, development, organization, insight, understanding and purpose are inadequately explained by specks of inanimate dust…

And yet for many other people the “specks of inanimate dust” are a perfect explanation.

Opinions are worthless compared with facts.

Keep in mind that many of those people are far more knowledgeable about natural science than you are, and they are satisfied.

An argumentum ad hominem which evades the fact that no verifiable or feasible theory has ever been presented.

How can anything be morally reprehensible in an amoral universe?

Because we say it is…

So if you say something it is true!

… and humans are the only thing in the universe (that we know of) that even have morals.

Humans are the only persons in the universe (that we know of) that inflict unnecessary suffering.

So yes, the universe, as in galaxies, planets, and stars, is amoral, but humans are not.

Why?