Why would God include carnivory, parasitism, and disease in creation?

[tonyrey]

This universe is immensely complex to us humans, but to an infinitely intelligent deity it is incredibly simple. And if it was designed by this infinite deity for a single purpose then there is no reason to expect that every part of it wouldn’t work toward this purpose.

God created the universe for many purposes, not just one!

Now if you’re going to tell me that God designed the AIDS virus specifically to slowly and painfully kill people, and ebola to swiftly and viciously kill people then fine, but you’ll have to give up the idea that God is all good.

Many phenomena are not designed. Within the framework of Design there is a element of chance.

This is the crux of the dilemma: either God couldn’t have done it another way, in which case he is inept, or he chose to make it as bad as he did, in which case he is not all good.

God could have done it in many different ways but each way would have had its drawbacks given that we cannot have anything for nothing. There is a price to pay for every advantage, e.g. the more sensitive you are the more you suffer.

“It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied.” JS Mill

Only a mentally retarded person expects to have everything for nothing…

Or someone who believes in a God who created everything from nothing.

Also, I’d appreciate it if you’d keep your insults to yourself. We’re not in first grade here.

It is a statement of fact - which you maladroitly misinterpret…

When a system is created the designer is constrained by the need for consistency with the purposes for which the system is created. There is no point in establishing the laws of nature if they are going to be constantly suspended.

So why did God create those specific laws of nature?

Can you suggest others which would fulfil the same purposes - given the need for fine tuning?

You’re saying that God couldn’t have made nature any better, no matter what he did. There’s no possible way he could have made it even the tiniest bit better. every single disease is absolutely necessary for the earth to function. If we got rid of even one the whole earth’s ecosystem would collapse?.. We got rid of that, and everything’s still here. You’re telling me that God had to make smallpox, and the earth wouldn’t have worked without it?

You are overlooking - amongst other factors - the vast number of living organisms, the unimaginable span of biological development, the immense complexity of nature, the results of human intervention, the inevitability of purposeless combinations of events and the role of conflict and competition as well as interaction and co-operation…

You don’t have an explanation of how suffering could be restricted to human beings.

Yes I do. I invoke God. God, the almighty, who can do literally anything, including design a completely different ecosystem that supports life without the evils we see in it now.

A gratuitous hypothesis which is neither verifiable, falsifiable nor feasible.

It is up to you to explain how an accident-free, disease-free, conflict-free, disaster-free Utopia could be created.

I said nothing in my OP about accident, conflict, or disaster. I said carnivory, disease, and parasitism.

Which imply an accident-free, conflict-free, disaster-free Utopia.

Also, I have said how they could exist - I play the trump, “all things are possible” card of God. It is up to you to explain why this card doesn’t work - why with God all things are not possible.

The trump is overtrumped by the simple fact that not all things are feasible in a physical universe unless it is chaotic and unpredictable.

 

[guanophore]

Many of the saints had to endure the Dark Night of the Soul because the closer we are to God the greater the challenge we have to face. They experienced more intensely the anguish of Our Lord at the prospect of being betrayed by Judas, deserted by the Apostles, condemned by the Sanhedrin, rejected by Pilate, reviled by the Jews, tortured by the Romans, mocked by the bystanders and crucified by the soldiers. Everyone knew exactly what to expect if they were found guilty of subversion because executions were a common sight in Jerusalem…

Indeed, Jesus promised suffering. Bob seems to think God has not answered his prayers, but God has answered them most abundantly!

Suffering is evil but we can transform it into an expression of our love for Jesus.

No, I don’t think so. Suffering is the human response to evil. If suffering itself was evil, then Jesus would not have participated in it, which He clearly did. The thinks of this world that cause suffering are often evil in origin, but not always. For example, there is nothing evil in wanting gainful employment. Suffering is only caused when that normally healthy desire is placed above seeking the Kingdom, which is our first duty.

 

[tonyrey]

If suffering itself was evil, then Jesus would not have participated in it, which He clearly did.

Jesus accepted unjust and unnecessary suffering though He dreaded it because He knew it was a lesser evil than abandoning His mission to liberate us from our moral weakness, ignorance and selfishness.

 

[BobCatholic]

You sound like you are angry at God because you are not hearing what you want. He is not going to tell you anything new until you receive and and implement what He has already given you. God will let us believe and walk according to the devil’s lies if we so choose.

The problem is not that I’m not hearing what I want.

The problem is: I’m hearing NOTHING.

God expects me to do his will but won’t tell me what it is.

So how do I get God to talk to me as well? I’m tired of prayer being a monologue. I’ve tried Eucharistic adoration, and just sitting there waiting. Nothing.

It is not up to you to decide how God shows your value to Him. You are so important to Him that He gave His life for you on the cross.

Jesus Christ cares about my soul so much that He died for me on the Cross. My body, on the other hand…I don’t know.

I have to figure out how to survive until I die.

How do I do that without a job? I am subject to the laws of economics that God created and apparently not subject to temporal mercy.

 

[BobCatholic]

Suffering is evil but we can transform it into an expression of our love for Jesus.

And how do I do that, when the suffering appears to be God not showing temporal love for me.

Keep in mind I said “appears” in the above sentence.

All I want is for God to talk to me so I know what I’m supposed to do. Without guidance from God I’m doomed to fail.

 

[BobCatholic]

I sometimes wonder about how different our culture of today is in our country (each person for his/herself) from the first century Christian era when “they had all things in common.” Do you think that is too much like socialism, or could it be possible to at least try to be more communally-minded?

That’s more like Catholic religious orders. Nobody owns anything but property is held in common.

So I hope it is all right if I remember you in my prayers, that something very good will come your way soon.

I appreciate that.

My personal feeling about God’s part in our suffering is that He is grieving with us: at the way society fails in helping citizens between jobs (with medical insurance, helping people keep their homes, etc.) and how people don’t help one another as Christ wants us to. If God had His way, we would have quite a different world.:heaven: Do you agree?

I agree to a certain extent. The part that society does not seem to help is in the retraining for new jobs. It is one thing to go to school, get a degree, get a certificate or get a certification. It is another to have experience, and that’s where things get bad for me. I have have many years experience in IT. But in one field. So when jobs dry up in that field, I went back to school, got one degree, one license, and two certifications. Then went to job search. Nothing.

 

[BobCatholic]

None of us have the ability to “make God happy”, that is what is crazy about this idea. God loves everyone He creates, and He loved us enough to die for us. Nothing can separate us from His love but our own refusal to accept it.

Nothing can separate us from his love but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t separate us from his temporal mercy. I’m not talking spiritual mercy, I have zero doubt in God’s mercy on a spiritual area. That mercy is as close as the nearest confessional. The light of mercy is lit. Praise God for that.

When it comes to temporal things, I don’t know where God is on this. I see God bless people with wealth. I see God bless people with material success, and other good things.
I’m seeing God do this to good and evil people alike.

We can avoid it, and trying to do so only makes it worse.

Why?

This is a falsehood. Believing in falsehoods makes human beings dysfunctional. We are made for the Truth. Believing in lies causes us to be miserable.

Then why is God far more merciful spiritually than temporally? I mean, by leaps and bounds. Comparing the world’s circumference to an inch.

You seem to be confused, Bob. God promised that all things would be added to those who seek first the Kingdom. The Kingdom of God starts with being in right relationship with God. One cannot be in right relationship with God if one is blaming God for one’s unpleasant and unwanted situation.

So how do I get a right relationship with God? Right now, God pushes me away by putting this horrible suffering. I feel like Icarus flying toward the sun.

It might be that God wants to to relinquish all this, and trust entirely upon HIm.

How can I trust someone who doesn’t want to help me?

God is much bigger than any computer.

Only if it is His will. God is limited by His will.

But you will be in my prayers.

I appreciate that.

 

[guanophore]

The problem is not that I’m not hearing what I want.

The problem is: I’m hearing NOTHING.

God expects me to do his will but won’t tell me what it is.

So how do I get God to talk to me as well? I’m tired of prayer being a monologue. I’ve tried Eucharistic adoration, and just sitting there waiting. Nothing.

I think we have wandered off the threat topic, Bob. We should continue this discussion in the Spirituality forum instead. Suffice to say that, if you refuse to accept what He has already told you, it is unlikely that you will hear anything more. By denying the Holy Word applies to you, you cut yourself off from His voice.

Jesus Christ cares about my soul so much that He died for me on the Cross. My body, on the other hand…I don’t know.

God created the human body to be the most perfect instrument to reflect Himself, and to praise Him. He has consecrated human flesh by taking it unstained into heaven, and this is the destiny for all of our bodies. Our bodies now are a temple of the HS, and to say that God does not care about the temple in which He dwells is blasphemy against the HS.

I have to figure out how to survive until I die.

Not really. I mean, we are all gonna survive until we die.

How do I do that without a job?   I am subject to the laws of economics that God created and apparently not subject to temporal mercy.

No, you are not subject to anything that the Lord does not allow. Therefore, your issue is with Him. We are called to praise HIm in plenty or in want. Instead of offering praise and thanksgiving, you are offering resentment and blame.

And how do I do that, when the suffering appears to be God not showing temporal love for me.Keep in mind I said “appears” in the above sentence.

This is the reason we need our faith. When things appear to be other than what they are. Jesus said “blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe”. Faith is for that which is hoped for, but not seen.

All I want is for God to talk to me so I know what I’m supposed to do. Without guidance from God I’m doomed to fail.

Are not we all? But God waits for us to receive what we have already been given, before He gives us more. When you treat His Holy Word with contempt, and choose to believe the lies of the Evil One instead, what makes you think He has much to say to you?

 

[guanophore]

Nothing can separate us from his love but that doesn't mean it doesn't separate us from his temporal mercy.    I'm not talking spiritual mercy, I have zero doubt in God's mercy on a spiritual area.   That mercy is as close as the nearest confessional.   The light of mercy is lit.   Praise God for that.

Amen! But have you confessed that you have let the sun go down on your anger, and that you have been holding resentments toward God about your lack of employment? The anger of a man does not accomplish the righteousness of God.

 When it comes to temporal things, I don't know where God is on this.   I see God bless people with wealth.   I see God bless people with material success, and other good things.  I'm seeing God do this to good and evil people alike.

I don’t get the sense that you are hooked on seeking weath, it seems like you just want to fulfill your obligations as the head of the household to provide for your family. Therefore, you are just seeking God’s solution for your responsibiliies, not chasing after manna.

Why?

We are made for God’s love, and as Augustine wrote, our hearts are restless until they rest in HIm. He has created us for His love, and the more we run from it, the more miserable we become. It is because we are moving away from His intentions for our souls.

So how do I get a right relationship with God?   Right now, God pushes me away by putting this horrible suffering.  I feel like Icarus flying toward the sun.

Indeed, your posts really do sound like the cries of a man whose wax is melting and is about to crash and burn. Suffering is only redemnptive when we embrace it, and give thanks in it. When we experience our suffering as God being mean and abusive, we do not progress as souls. God wants to give us peace in the midst of our pain, but we must seek him through the pain in order to find that peace. Kicking against the goads, and being angry with God that we are suffering does not work.

How can I trust someone who doesn't want to help me?

No one can. First you have to jettison that lie that God does not want to help you. After than, you can grow some trust. Instead of reciting the lies of the Evil One, begin to recite the Scriptures instead.

I appreciate that.

I will continue to pray for you, my brother. I also sent you a PM.

 

[BobCatholic]

Amen! But have you confessed that you have let the sun go down on your anger, and that you have been holding resentments toward God about your lack of employment? The anger of a man does not accomplish the righteousness of God.

I don’t hold resentment. I hold a broken heart. I trusted and my trust was in vain. I am abandoned.

I don’t get the sense that you are hooked on seeking weath, it seems like you just want to fulfill your obligations as the head of the household to provide for your family. Therefore, you are just seeking God’s solution for your responsibiliies, not chasing after manna.

Correct.

Suffering is only redemnptive when we embrace it, and give thanks in it.

I can’t give thanks for this kind of suffering. I am not a masochist, and I don’t know why God wants me to be one.

No one can. First you have to jettison that lie that God does not want to help you.

God keeps saying “NO” to my prayers for employment. How do I trust someone who does not want me to get a job?

 

[BobCatholic]

Suffice to say that, if you refuse to accept what He has already told you, it is unlikely that you will hear anything more. By denying the Holy Word applies to you, you cut yourself off from His voice.

I accept what God says. I just cannot accept unemployment for the rest of my life. That is horrible and evil. I am like that servant “what little he had, will be taken away…” That is what God said in the scriptures.

Our bodies now are a temple of the HS, and to say that God does not care about the temple in which He dwells is blasphemy against the HS.

Then he has to start getting these little green pieces of paper with pictures of dead presidents on them, any legitimate way to me and my family. If not a job, then something other legitimate ways. I am afraid that I will be forced to turn to a life of crime and I don’t want to go there! I am typing this with great emotion here, I don’t want to go there!!!

Not really. I mean, we are all gonna survive until we die.

Can’t survive without income.

No, you are not subject to anything that the Lord does not allow. Therefore, your issue is with Him. We are called to praise HIm in plenty or in want. Instead of offering praise and thanksgiving, you are offering resentment and blame.

God wrote the laws of economics, they are part of the Natural Law (which he wrote).

I can’t praise God in my want. I am not a masochist thankful for more pain. I just can’t go there.

This is the reason we need our faith. When things appear to be other than what they are. Jesus said “blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe”. Faith is for that which is hoped for, but not seen.

First, faith is a gift. I ask for the gift and have not gotten my faith batteries recharged.

Second, faith is not blind. It helps us see. I’ve seen that verse “walk by faith and not by sight” MISINTERPRETED to command “blind faith”, but that’s not what it is about. Faith is supposed to help me SEE. There is no such thing as “blind faith” -

I don’t see, so I didn’t get the gift.

I like to see faith as the seventh sense. You got the 5 temporal senses. The 6th is supernatural - a gift from God. And faith, a supernatural sense, is the seventh, and is a gift from God.

Are not we all? But God waits for us to receive what we have already been given, before He gives us more. When you treat His Holy Word with contempt, and choose to believe the lies of the Evil One instead, what makes you think He has much to say to you?

I don’t treat his Holy Word with contempt. But what I see written there contradicts what I’m experiencing. “Ask and you shall receive” except if I want employment, then there’s an exception.

 

[tonyrey]

Suffering is evil but we can transform it into an expression of our love for Jesus.

You are right. Your suffering is not God’s fault but the fault of the unjust society in which we live. Millions of people in the world are hungry and dying of malnutrition because of human greed and selfishness.

All I want is for God to talk to me so I know what I’m supposed to do. Without guidance from God I’m doomed to fail. And how do I do that, when the suffering appears to be God not showing temporal love for me.

Normally God talks us to us through others - although sometimes He inspires us with ideas.
Have you contacted the Samaritans? Do you go to church? Do they have a newsletter where you can ask for advice? There is also the St Vincent de Paul society. Sometimes voluntary work helps people to find opportunities for part-time work and at least free meals.

 

[tonyrey]

I would add a couple of points in support - primarily expanding upon your point about sentience being possible without suffering.

A myth entertained by those who haven’t considered the full implications of living in a physical world.

The ultimate end of life, according to Christian doctrine, is bodily resurrection and eternal bliss in heaven (or eternal suffering in hell, for the likes of you and me!) hence it has to be possible to create bodily - presumably physical - beings that are capable of happiness but have no need to suffer.

If we are capable of happiness we are also capable of unhappiness - even if all our physical needs are satisfied.

It’s difficult to see how an all-powerful god who had this end in mind would need to inflict the misery that obtains in the world in order to achieve it.

The misery in the world is not inflicted by God but by natural causes and human decisions.

And speaking of the intended ends of creation, I am still interested in finding out why, if free will is a supernatural additive to human nature, it was necessary for the entire process of natural evolution to occur in order to arrive at free-willed creatures.

There is far more in life than free will. Don’t you value physical pleasure?

As Stephen Fry put it, with his characteristic eloquence and candour, “You can’t just say there’s a god because the world is beautiful. You have to account for bone cancer in children.”

Facile, emotive and simplistic. The causes of disease can be found in any textbook and they are usually multiple. Eliminate the causes and you eliminate life.

Is any person who dies prematurely and in pain really improved in some metaphysical sense by the experience?

Not necessarily and very often not at all. How could it be arranged that such contingencies never occur?

I fail to see how, and I don’t anticipate an explanation from the opposition - more likely it will be more questions asking me to demonstrate a point of view I don’t hold.

I don’t anticipate explanations to my questions - which are the crux of the matter…

 

[Sair]

I don’t think any apologist for Believers *just *says there’s a God because the world is beautiful.

Certainly, that* is* an argument in our arsenal, but no one uses that argument to stand alone.

It’s usually put in the form of, “There’s so much beauty in the world - how can you not believe there’s a god?”

Perhaps. Perhaps not. But if they are Christian they can indeed improve* the world *by their redemptive suffering.

“Redemptive” suffering is a holdover from the primitive practice of human sacrifice to God/the gods; Jesus being claimed as the “sacrificial lamb” and the doctrine of vicarious atonement follow directly from the idea of propitiatory sacrifice and the ancient Jewish practice of scapegoating. It seems like a much better idea to actually :: something ::for:: someone that has effects in this life, whether it’s caring for a person who is ill, or giving material help (such as food, clothing, shelter, medical treatment) to someone otherwise in need. It’s quite possible to suffer or even die without achieving anything useful for anyone you care about. I would not want anyone to die ::for:: me. I’d much prefer that they survived.

Not to mention it may be that their pain and suffering that’s being witnessed by their loved ones improves their loved ones. I know a boy whose sister has a severe disability and he now has great empathy for those who suffer. Prior to that he was one of those boys who ridiculed the mentally challenged.

I won’t give the precise response I offered on Facebook to a similar comment from my still-Catholic brother. If it takes the suffering of one of my loved ones to “improve” me as a person, I would seriously question whether it was worth it.

 

[tonyrey]

It’s usually put in the form of, “There’s so much beauty in the world - how can you not believe there’s a god?”

It is far more reasonable to believe the exquisite beauty in the world is due to Design rather hold the cynical view that it is a mere illusion on the part of naked apes.

“Redemptive” suffering is a holdover from the primitive practice of human sacrifice to God/the gods; Jesus being claimed as the “sacrificial lamb” and the doctrine of vicarious atonement follow directly from the idea of propitiatory sacrifice and the ancient Jewish practice of scapegoating.

In other words the blood of martyrs has never succeeded in transforming society. It is better to save one’s own skin and live as a slave rather rather than die so that others may be free…

The practice of human and animal sacrifice was based on the sense of guilt - which is sadly lacking in the minds of both criminals and “progressive” thinkers who attribute all wrong-doing to ignorance and deprivation. It is a convenient excuse for doing exactly what you like because that is the way you are made and you are never to blame! Primitive man at least realised we are morally responsible for the evil in the world and we need to atone for the harm we have done to others.

It seems like a much better idea to actually :: something ::for:: someone that has effects in this life, whether it’s caring for a person who is ill, or giving material help (such as food, clothing, shelter, medical treatment) to someone otherwise in need.

We can do far more for people by giving them moral and spiritual support. Physical illness is often caused by mental disorders which are prevalent among those who have a surfeit of material possessions. It is a fallacy that help has to be visible and tangible.

It’s quite possible to suffer or even die without achieving anything useful for anyone you care about. I would not want anyone to die ::for:: me. I’d much prefer that they survived.

“possible” implies that it is also to suffer or die in order to achieve something essential which would otherwise be impossible.

If it takes the suffering of one of my loved ones to “improve” me as a person, I would seriously question whether it was worth it.

You have not denied it may be necessary…

 

[Sair]

It is far more reasonable to believe the exquisite beauty in the world is due to Design rather hold the cynical view that it is a mere illusion on the part of naked apes.

Why? In any age, have humans been convinced that the perception of beauty is somehow beholden to rationality? Just look at modern art…

In other words the blood of martyrs has never succeeded in transforming society. It is better to save one’s own skin and live as a slave rather rather than die so that others may be free…

Yet “martyrs” continue to place themselves in prominent danger, or fly planes into buildings, or blow themselves up in public places. As Einstein said, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

The practice of human and animal sacrifice was based on the sense of guilt - which is sadly lacking in the minds of both criminals and “progressive” thinkers who attribute all wrong-doing to ignorance and deprivation. It is a convenient excuse for doing exactly what you like because that is the way you are made and you are never to blame! Primitive man at least realised we are morally responsible for the evil in the world and we need to atone for the harm we have done to others.

Guilt exists as a motivator to change our behaviour. If we can just get rid of it by heaping it on a goat or on another human (even one claimed to be divine), then it can’t do its job.

We can do far more for people by giving them moral and spiritual support. Physical illness is often caused by mental disorders which are prevalent among those who have a surfeit of material possessions. It is a fallacy that help has to be visible and tangible.

Because prayer is such an reliable and proven course of action! Regardless of whether it is “tangible”, help really ought to be effective in order to qualify as such.

“possible” implies that it is also to suffer or die in order to achieve something essential which would otherwise be impossible.

Such as? I mean, let’s say I’m responsible for the welfare of a group of children, or frail elderly people, or people with severe disabilities - people who, in other words, are not able to provide effective care for themselves. In what way would my death help them, that would not be better served by my remaining alive in order to render continuing support? It might make for a dramatic gesture, but not a particularly useful one.

You have not denied it may be necessary…

Questioning whether it is worthwhile implies that it was not necessary - that some other course of action would have been better, or at least have sufficed.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s usually put in the form of, “There’s so much beauty in the world - how can you not believe there’s a god?”

Yes, as I said, that argument is one that we use. As philosopher Peter Kreeft says, "There is the music of Johann Sebastian Bach. Therefore there must be a God.

You either see this one or you don’t."

But my point was that we don’t “just” say that, as if that argument stands alone.

 

[PRmerger]

“Redemptive” suffering is a holdover from the primitive practice of human sacrifice to God/the gods; Jesus being claimed as the “sacrificial lamb” and the doctrine of vicarious atonement follow directly from the idea of propitiatory sacrifice and the ancient Jewish practice of scapegoating.

I won’t argue with you here.

Here I see “primitive” as synonymous with “infused with truth” and “pointing towards something greater”, and not as backwards and barbaric.

It does speak to the fact that sacrifice and worship are inherently linked— all of humanity has seen the need for this.

It seems like a much better idea to actually :: something ::for:: someone that has effects in this life, whether it’s caring for a person who is ill, or giving material help (such as food, clothing, shelter, medical treatment) to someone otherwise in need.

Well, Sair, there need not be an either/or dichotomy that you’re creating. Why not do both redemptively suffer and “actually do something”, if such a “something” is possible?

It’s quite possible to suffer or even die without achieving anything useful for anyone you care about.

Indeed. And that’s the great sadness about atheists suffering. It’s simply wasted. :sad_yes:

I would not want anyone to die ::for:: me. I’d much prefer that they survived.

Me, too!

I won’t give the precise response I offered on Facebook to a similar comment from my still-Catholic brother. If it takes the suffering of one of my loved ones to “improve” me as a person, I would seriously question whether it was worth it.

You wouldn’t say that if you saw how children act before they have a sibling with a severe disability and the transformation of love that occurs afterwards.

My friend was pregnant with a child with Down syndrome and was despondent over the news. Absolutely despondent.

Now, with her beautiful 18 month old baby she rejoices in his disability. Rejoices. Her suffering—daily, BTW–has also injected great joy and love into her family. Without this trial she would not have experienced this profound joy.

 

[tonyrey]

It is far more reasonable to believe the exquisite beauty in the world is due to Design rather hold the cynical view that it is a mere illusion on the part of naked apes.

There are scientific reasons why beauty exists in some things and not others. Harmony, symmetry and proportion don’t exist by chance.

Just look at modern art…

Moderation is an aberration symptomatic of disorientation!

In other words the blood of martyrs has never succeeded in transforming society. It is better to save one’s own skin and live as a slave rather rather than die so that others may be free…

Yet “martyrs” continue to place themselves in prominent danger, or fly planes into buildings, or blow themselves up in public places. As Einstein said, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

The existence of lunacy and fanaticism does not imply all martyrs are lunatics or fanatics.

The practice of human and animal sacrifice was based on the sense of guilt - which is sadly lacking in the minds of both criminals and “progressive” thinkers who attribute all wrong-doing to ignorance and deprivation. It is a convenient excuse for doing exactly what you like because that is the way you are made and you are never to blame! Primitive man at least realised we are morally responsible for the evil in the world and we need to atone for the harm we have done to others.

Guilt exists as a motivator to change our behaviour.

How did guilt originate?

If we can just get rid of it by heaping it on a goat or on another human (even one claimed to be divine), then it can’t do its job.

Redemption doesn’t entail exoneration from individual guilt. It is liberation from the effects of evil. We are all victims of the moral, physical, psychological and spiritual harm done by ourselves and others but we still have to atone for our offences. We cannot overcome our ignorance, weakness and selfishness unless we are given the discernment, wisdom, strength and love to do so.

We can do far more for people by giving them moral and spiritual support. Physical illness is often caused by mental disorders which are prevalent among those who have a surfeit of material possessions. It is a fallacy that help has to be visible and tangible.

Because prayer is such an reliable and proven course of action!

Your cynicism doesn’t correspond to established facts. Nor are moral and spiritual support limited to prayer.

Regardless of whether it is “tangible”, help really ought to be effective in order to qualify as such.

That goes without saying. You seem to agree that help need not be tangible.

“possible” implies that it is also to suffer or die in order to achieve something essential which would otherwise be impossible.

Such as? I mean, let’s say I’m responsible for the welfare of a group of children, or frail elderly people, or people with severe disabilities - people who, in other words, are not able to provide effective care for themselves. In what way would my death help them, that would not be better served by my remaining alive in order to render continuing support? It might make for a dramatic gesture, but not a particularly useful one.

It doesn’t follow that it is never necessary to suffer or die for the welfare of others.

You have not denied it may be necessary…

Questioning whether it is worthwhile implies that it was not necessary - that some other course of action would have been better, or at least have sufficed.

Is it never necessary in any circumstances whatsoever?

 

[Gaber]

Yes, as I said, that argument is one that we use. As philosopher Peter Kreeft says, "There is the music of Johann Sebastian Bach. Therefore there must be a God.

You either see this one or you don’t."

But my point was that we don’t “just” say that, as if that argument stands alone.

Yes, the point being that God is not the result of a line of logic, or of emotion, or of sense perceptions, and cannot be either the object of such, nor contained in such. That said, the kind of IQ that is often measured is of a prticular variety and usually culturally biased. So “reason” doesn’t include other intelligences that may pretain. And there is the factor that God is transcendent, so if there is a way to perceive God, it must be beyond the mind as we ordinarily “use” it. So proofs are pius attempts, at best, to get someone to pay attention to something you believe, and not know. As Walt Whitman said, And I am sure this is a very close quote: “I and mine do not convince by argument, similes or rhymes. We convince by our presence”

In other words, to attempt to “prove” Diety by cold dry logic is to present a dead body in the place of the Ineffable. The notion that God could be demonstrated as a matter of logic is a root of anthropomorphism, something rampant in the minds of many religious anyway. I would not encourage that by attempting a futile “proof.”