Why would God make the hellbound?

[ssancho]

In a previous thread, I asked about something relating to the idea that God made us because He loved us.

I have a similar question. If God made us because He loved us, why did he make people whom He knew would choose to go to hell? In the 3rd edition Catechism, " ‘To love is to will the good of another.’ " (CCC 1766). However, Jesus says about Judas in Matthew 26:24, 24 " ‘The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.’ "

This seems to be a difficulty in need of resolution. Since God made Judas, He must have loved him. But if love is the willing of the good of another, then if God loved Judas, wouldn’t He have refrained from making him since it would have been better for Judas had he not been born? To generalize the question, why would God make any person that He knew would ultimately rebel against Him?

Please help me out here. This seems like a contradiction, but there’s probably some simple thing I’m overlooking.

 

[davidv]

In a previous thread, I asked about something relating to the idea that God made us because He loved us.

I have a similar question. If God made us because He loved us, why did he make people whom He knew would choose to go to hell? In the 3rd edition Catechism, " ‘To love is to will the good of another.’ " (CCC 1766). However, Jesus says about Judas in Matthew 26:24, 24 " ‘The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.’ "

This seems to be a difficulty in need of resolution. Since God made Judas, He must have loved him. But if love is the willing of the good of another, then if God loved Judas, wouldn’t He have refrained from making him since it would have been better for Judas had he not been born? To generalize the question, why would God make any person that He knew would ultimately rebel against Him?

Please help me out here. This seems like a contradiction, but there’s probably some simple thing I’m overlooking.

Do you “know” that Judas is in hell? How?
Why is nonexistance better that existence?
God’s creation is good, so how could He uncreate something good and still be all-good?
If we didn’t exist we cannot be hellbound.

 

[Pat_Payne]

In If God made us because He loved us, why did he make people whom He knew would choose to go to hell?

The answer I always go to is Wisdom 11: 23-24:

“But because you are almighty, you are merciful to all; you overlook sins and give your children time to repent. You love everything that exists and hate nothing that you have made; had you hated anything, you would not have formed it.”

He gave us free will. He created us out of love, and even though he exists out of time, he still loves and guides us to try to pull our wills back to him. Just because he knows how the story ends doesn’t mean he stops loving us. And the fact is, we, with our imperfect human knowledge, don’t know who is or will be in Hell. For all we know, an Adolf Hitler or a Pol Pot may have had a sudden conversion and perfect contrition right at the last breath of their lives.

 

[Bookcat]

God creates out of love. What we do with our freedom - our misuse of it - is just that a misuse of what God lovingly gave us.

 

[Bookcat]

We do not know how Judas ended up.

One can perhaps take the phrase “better he not have been born” as of a genre of a kind of speech in use then. Similar if your hand leads you to sin – “cut your hand off” /…if your eye --“pluck out your eye”-- it is better to enter into heaven without an eye or hand than enter hell with them…that sort of expression.

In other words – It is very very not good for someone to betray the Son of God --to hand him over to be crucified…

But that does not mean that in the end he ended up in hell. We just do not know…

Even in the last moments…things can change.

 

[Cromwell4]

Despite what Presbyterians/Calvinists believe no one is pre-destined to go to Hell.

Unlike the rest of the animal kingdom he gave us Free Will. Unless you are mentally defective even the basest savage knows right from wrong. 'Seems the cannibals whom Cook met in S. Pacific were ashamed of their habit & tried to hide it from him. They knew it was wrong. Judas had Free Choice; God the Father did not ‘force’ him to betray Jesus. Yes He knew since He exists outside Time & Space.

We have all been given Choice; to accept God’s Will or else go to Satan’s dominion. Sad but today many many people prefer the latter. …
‘Pray lest you enter into temptation’…how very true these words of Jesus are today for the vast majority of mankind.

 

[oldcelt]

In a previous thread, I asked about something relating to the idea that God made us because He loved us.

I have a similar question. If God made us because He loved us, why did he make people whom He knew would choose to go to hell? In the 3rd edition Catechism, " ‘To love is to will the good of another.’ " (CCC 1766). However, Jesus says about Judas in Matthew 26:24, 24 " ‘The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.’ "

This seems to be a difficulty in need of resolution. Since God made Judas, He must have loved him. But if love is the willing of the good of another, then if God loved Judas, wouldn’t He have refrained from making him since it would have been better for Judas had he not been born? To generalize the question, why would God make any person that He knew would ultimately rebel against Him?

Please help me out here. This seems like a contradiction, but there’s probably some simple thing I’m overlooking.

This is one of the issues that does not add up for Deists. We believe that God loves His creation, we just don’t believe in the vengeful, interfering God seen particularly in the OT. For us, that is an inconsistency that cannot exist in a deity that is good.

 

[dshix]

This is one of the issues that does not add up for Deists. We believe that God loves His creation, we just don’t believe in the vengeful, interfering God seen particularly in the OT. For us, that is an inconsistency that cannot exist in a deity that is good.

God is infinitely merciful… but also infinitely just. The REAL inconsistency would be if he HAD NOT punished the Israelites with such severity when they transgressed.

 

[Boulder257]

The answer I always go to is Wisdom 11: 23-24:

“But because you are almighty, you are merciful to all; you overlook sins and give your children time to repent. You love everything that exists and hate nothing that you have made; had you hated anything, you would not have formed it.”

He gave us free will. He created us out of love, and even though he exists out of time, he still loves and guides us to try to pull our wills back to him. Just because he knows how the story ends doesn’t mean he stops loving us. And the fact is, we, with our imperfect human knowledge, don’t know who is or will be in Hell. For all we know, an Adolf Hitler or a Pol Pot may have had a sudden conversion and perfect contrition right at the last breath of their lives.

Great bible quote and definitely applicable. Let me ask this in follow-up: Why did God create Satan? Certainly he knew he would fall and he knew the harm he would do So why create something that is going to literally steal souls from heaven?

 

[Neofight]

In a previous thread, I asked about something relating to the idea that God made us because He loved us.

I have a similar question. If God made us because He loved us, why did he make people whom He knew would choose to go to hell? In the 3rd edition Catechism, " ‘To love is to will the good of another.’ " (CCC 1766). However, Jesus says about Judas in Matthew 26:24, 24 " ‘The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.’ "

This seems to be a difficulty in need of resolution. Since God made Judas, He must have loved him. But if love is the willing of the good of another, then if God loved Judas, wouldn’t He have refrained from making him since it would have been better for Judas had he not been born? To generalize the question, why would God make any person that He knew would ultimately rebel against Him?

Please help me out here. This seems like a contradiction, but there’s probably some simple thing I’m overlooking.

Free will is a great gift of love.

I had a friend growing up who had a very mean father, who demanded complete obedience. His father equated rote obedience and severe punishment with love. His son “loved” him, he thought, only because he was so afraid of him.

Years later as a parent, it reminded me of how, what I wanted was a relationship with my own son that was based on real love and not on fear. I wanted him to love me for the sake of love, not to avoid punishment.

And so it seems, in my mind, with our Eternal Father.

He offers all we need for salvation, is pleased when we accept it, but never forces it on us.

Peace and Prayers.

 

[Bookcat]

Deists. We believe that God loves His creation, we just don’t believe in…(an) interfering God

Or saving a God…
*
Watch* is not quite working right? …cause some of the parts of it bent things up a bit?..oh well just let it run til it stops not need to do anything to help those parts…they are on their own.

---

Rather the Logos - at the right time entered into creation - the Good Shepherd seeking out his sheep

• to offer them true life --and in the end -that life carried forward in resurrection and new creation

-with the creation as beautiful as it is - being transformed - made even more beautiful.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#VI

But this thread is not the place for this.

 

[Bookcat]

We do not know how Judas ended up.

One can perhaps take the phrase “better he not have been born” as of a genre of a kind of speech in use then. Similar if your hand leads you to sin – “cut your hand off” /…if your eye --“pluck out your eye”-- it is better to enter into heaven without an eye or hand than enter hell with them…that sort of expression.

In other words – It is very very not good for someone to betray the Son of God --to hand him over to be crucified…

 

[Pat_Payne]

Great bible quote and definitely applicable. Let me ask this in follow-up: Why did God create Satan? Certainly he knew he would fall and he knew the harm he would do So why create something that is going to literally steal souls from heaven?

For the same exact reason. God doesn’t want automatons or robots – if that was the case, he’d have created us all as Daleks and called it good. He gave all of his creation free will because he wanted love to be a free will choice, not something coerced or forced, because then it wouldn’t be love. Even the angels, at their creation, had that choice. And some, like Satan, decided to rebel. God does not force himself upon anyone.

 

[grannymh]

In a previous thread, I asked about something relating to the idea that God made us because He loved us.

I have a similar question. If God made us because He loved us, why did he make people whom He knew would choose to go to hell? In the 3rd edition Catechism, " ‘To love is to will the good of another.’ " (CCC 1766). However, Jesus says about Judas in Matthew 26:24, 24 " ‘The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.’ "

This seems to be a difficulty in need of resolution. Since God made Judas, He must have loved him. But if love is the willing of the good of another, then if God loved Judas, wouldn’t He have refrained from making him since it would have been better for Judas had he not been born? To generalize the question, why would God make any person that He knew would ultimately rebel against Him?

Please help me out here. This seems like a contradiction, but there’s probably some simple thing I’m overlooking.

I do not mean to be funny about this serious topic, but…

God didn’t “make” Judas. A man and woman did.

God immediately created Judas’ spiritual soul at the moment of his conception. In that conception, God created Judas as a person to be loved. This is only one example of God’s love for Judas. Judas, because of his human nature, had many, many opportunities to seek God and cleave to Him. (CCC, 1730) Apparently, sin became attractive to Judas, and thus he chose to betray his Lord. There are some of us who, today, regret birth after something really bad happens. One day, long ago, my mother asked me if I regretted that she gave me birth because I had inherited some of her illness. I had no regrets because she had given me her love to be my strength.

Regardless of our good or bad state in life, God continues to call to us, in ways known to Himself, to come and share in His divine life. He continues to call all people through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Catholic Sacraments, including the Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation. We need to constantly listen to God within us (Sanctifying Grace, CCC, Glossary, page 898) so that we freely choose good or return to being good.

God gave man and woman the freedom to bring life into the world. God gives each human born the freedom to shape the course of her or his life. (CCC, 1731-1732) God gives us the privilege of choosing to remain with God or to reject Him. God honors our choice.

 

[ssancho]

One can perhaps take the phrase “better he not have been born” as of a genre of a kind of speech in use then. Similar if your hand leads you to sin – “cut your hand off” /…if your eye --“pluck out your eye”-- it is better to enter into heaven without an eye or hand than enter hell with them…that sort of expression.

That actually kind of makes sense to me.

Why is nonexistance better that existence?

This thought just came to me–maybe existence in hell isn’t worse than nonexistence, from the perspective of the ego of the hypothetical person in hell, who would prefer to suffer forever rather than admit a need for God.

Am I on the right track?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Question: Why would God make the hellbound?

Answer: Jesus let us know the “mission” of His Church when He said, “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”.

The “netherworld”: hell and spiritual death.

Among the many things that God-Incarnate, Jesus, did and/or tried to do is to get us to think.

Could be time to think rather than letting others do your thinking for you.

 

[4love2God]

"If God made us because He loved us, why did He make people whom He knew would choose to go to hell?"

It seems obvious by reading the Old Testament (and the New Testament), that God had differing ideas of things at different times.
But beyond that, God did not create the Universe to be Eden.
He tried that “all of Life is simple and good.”
Adam and Eve could not live in that simplistic existence.

At that point, God created Death (and pain in childbirth, etc.)
So then, God (at some point) created the After-Life.
At least by the time of Abraham, God had created a place for faithful Jews to go (as Jesus called it : Abraham’s Bosom).

A couple 1000 years later, Jesus came to earth, and created the Kingdom of Heaven (apparently a place that some people could live in after this Life is over).
Jesus announced this new place: “The Kingdom of Heaven is near.”
And Jesus explained how a person could “qualify” to get this new BONUS After-Life.
It seems that this new entity is mostly for followers of Jesus Christ, who have lived more spiritually than the Pharasies and the Scribes.

The way I see it, God created 1000 ways that people can become un-Spiritual.
Then, He sits back and watches as different people follow their paths of un-Spirituality.
God gives us some suggestions on how to live a Spiritual existence.
But this path is hard to follow, and impossible to follow completely.

Then, God decides that if some people follow the narrow Path, that there should be a reward given to them.
This would be : Spend your After-Life in a more Fun place … compared to the After-Life given to people who have chosen to NOT lead a Spiritual Life.
So, everyone gets his FREE Lifetime on earth.
The Bible speaks about getting your Goodies here on earth … then you have been “paid” … so the After-Life will be less-Fun.
That person (after dying) says, “Lord, Lord”
God responds : Leave here, I never knew you (i.e., you chose to get your reward on earth, and that’s that).

So, what’s wrong with God giving every person a good life … now or later?
I don’t see Hell as a punishment, but more of a 2nd-round equalizer.

So, even though God knows that many of his created beings will not go to Heaven, that does not mean that God does not Love all of those souls in Hell.
You seem to be suggesting that everybody should have everything wonderful in their lives forever.
This appears to NOT be the way that God has chosen to treat his creations.

 

[dshix]

"If God made us because He loved us, why did He make people whom He knew would choose to go to hell?"

It seems obvious by reading the Old Testament (and the New Testament), that God had differing ideas of things at different times.
But beyond that, God did not create the Universe to be Eden.
He tried that “all of Life is simple and good.”
Adam and Eve could not live in that simplistic existence.

God does not change. To say that he changed over time is false.

The way I see it, God created 1000 ways that people can become un-Spiritual.
Then, He sits back and watches as different people follow their paths of un-Spirituality.
God gives us some suggestions on how to live a Spiritual existence.
But this path is hard to follow, and impossible to follow completely.

Then, God decides that if some people follow the narrow Path, that there should be a reward given to them.
This would be : Spend your After-Life in a more Fun place … compared to the After-Life given to people who have chosen to NOT lead a Spiritual Life.
So, everyone gets his FREE Lifetime on earth.
The Bible speaks about getting your Goodies here on earth … then you have been “paid” … so the After-Life will be less-Fun.
That person (after dying) says, “Lord, Lord”
God responds : Leave here, I never knew you (i.e., you chose to get your reward on earth, and that’s that).

So, what’s wrong with God giving every person a good life … now or later?
I don’t see Hell as a punishment, but more of a 2nd-round equalizer.

So, even though God knows that many of his created beings will not go to Heaven, that does not mean that God does not Love all of those souls in Hell.
You seem to be suggesting that everybody should have everything wonderful in their lives forever.
This appears to NOT be the way that God has chosen to treat his creations.

You have a flawed understanding of Hell. Hell is eternal separation from God, eternal damnation. Since we, as humans, are destined by our creation to be with God, we are made absolutely unhappy by complete separation from Him, even when we reject him during our lifetimes.

There are not varying degrees of “funness” after death. There is Heaven or Hell. There are certainly varying degrees of happiness in Heaven, or suffering in Hell, but there is no “middle ground” between them.

You are either eternally happy or eternally damned. One or the other.

 

[oldcelt]

I do not mean to be funny about this serious topic, but…

God didn’t “make” Judas. A man and woman did.

God immediately created Judas’ spiritual soul at the moment of his conception. In that conception, God created Judas as a person to be loved. This is only one example of God’s love for Judas. Judas, because of his human nature, had many, many opportunities to seek God and cleave to Him. (CCC, 1730) Apparently, sin became attractive to Judas, and thus he chose to betray his Lord. There are some of us who, today, regret birth after something really bad happens. One day, long ago, my mother asked me if I regretted that she gave me birth because I had inherited some of her illness. I had no regrets because she had given me her love to be my strength.

Regardless of our good or bad state in life, God continues to call to us, in ways known to Himself, to come and share in His divine life. He continues to call all people through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Catholic Sacraments, including the Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation. We need to constantly listen to God within us (Sanctifying Grace, CCC, Glossary, page 898) so that we freely choose good or return to being good.

God gave man and woman the freedom to bring life into the world. God gives each human born the freedom to shape the course of her or his life. (CCC, 1731-1732) God gives us the privilege of choosing to remain with God or to reject Him. God honors our choice.

There is that omniscience issue for me. If you know in advance that something you are going to build will malfunction, and still build that thing, you are complicit in that items’s failure and any harm it caused. Same with people and that version of God. That is why Deist’s do not believe that God has anything to do with the creation of the individual and does not interfere on earth.

John

 

[Bookcat]

oldcelt:
T

John

Lets not continue discussing this subject.

As per the rules of the forum: “Messages posted to threads should be on-topic”.