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ja3712
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Absalom
Guest
Because they did not die with the life of Christ (in other words, w/out sanctifying grace). Without grace, our souls are dead, and there is only one place to which dead souls can go.I don’t make the news, I just report it.
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Irenicist
Guest
God doesn’t send anyone to Hell. People send themselves to Hell by separating themselves from God. God offers warnings, help and advice. The rest is up to you. If we don’t want to go to Hell, the means of avoiding such a fate are freely available to us. We don’t have to achieve some impossible ideal of virtuous thought and behaviour. We just have to strive for that ideal in good faith. This struggle is what unites us with God. If we strive and fail (as we inevitably do), He picks us up, dusts us off, and calls us to Him yet again. We only end up in Hell when we decide Heaven isn’t worth the effort.
If the question is rather “Why is God just?” or “Why does God not reward us for our sins?” we should be able to find the answer within ourselves after a bit of reflexion.
Irenicist
If the question is rather “Why is God just?” or “Why does God not reward us for our sins?” we should be able to find the answer within ourselves after a bit of reflexion.
Irenicist
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carol_marie
Guest
I’ve always believed that God didn’t “send” anyone to hell… they chose hell for themselves by rejecting Him over and over throughout their lives. Eternal life with God in heaven is a free gift… God sent his own son Jesus to die for our sins but we have to say yes to that gift. Free will means that we can either accept what Jesus has done or we can say no thanks. I believe God chases us our whole life, trying to get us to turn to Him and those who have died apart from His love and graces have excercised their right to say no.
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Gratias_Grace
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God wants everybody to be saved, but he doesn’t force any! If anybody is sent to hell it is because they didn’t listen to Gods call and chose to go their own ways!
Perhaps you should stop writing God as “god”!
Perhaps you should stop writing God as “god”!
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Annunciata
Guest
We send ourselves to hell by rejecting the Grace of God….
He is always there “That Hound of Heaven” chasing us down… giving us every opportunity to repent and turn away from sin….He doesn’t want to lose a single one of us!!! …Makes me think of Judas who rejected God’s good Grace and even after his betrayal of Jesus, he didn’t really repent…he gave into despair and hung himself.
In Jesus’ words, …”Better for him if he were never born”…
:twocents:
He is always there “That Hound of Heaven” chasing us down… giving us every opportunity to repent and turn away from sin….He doesn’t want to lose a single one of us!!! …Makes me think of Judas who rejected God’s good Grace and even after his betrayal of Jesus, he didn’t really repent…he gave into despair and hung himself.
In Jesus’ words, …”Better for him if he were never born”…
:twocents:
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Monarchy
Guest
Any diety that would allow eternal punishment cannot be good. Non-existance would be more merciful.
If a rapist told a woman “strip and don’t scream or I’ll kill you” and she ran and screamed, by your logic she is at fault when he kills her. He told her what would happen if she didn’t listen. He would have no moral culpability (sp?) at all.
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Genesis315
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By your logic, heaven is just another hell. This woman had a choice between rape and murder. The choice between heaven and hell is a little different I’d say.
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Grace_and_Glory
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Monarchy-God only asks us to do things that are good for us. In your example, the victim is being asked to choose between two things that are evil. God does not offer us two possibilities that both bring us great harm. God asks us to choose between Himself and evil. He always has our best interests at heart, as He proved when He gave His own life for us. A more apt example would be a lover who asks his beloved to marry him. If she says yes, she will enjoy the rest of her life with him. If she refuses, she is cut off from him.
Existence in itself is a good. To loose existence, even if it meant you could no longer suffer, is not good.
Existence in itself is a good. To loose existence, even if it meant you could no longer suffer, is not good.
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Stingray
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…
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Monarchy
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My point is that by the logic used above, the rapist is not evil or wrong. he informed her of the choice, and she decided wrong. Wether what he did is wrong is simply not a part of the equation.
Eternal torture is not love and any being that would allow or condone it can not be a loving being.
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Monarchy
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Grace and Glory:
Please prove that he even existed, let alone gave his life.
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Genesis315
Guest
Umm, the rapist is offering two evil choices. How is he not evil by the logic used above?
The choice here is between perfect good (heaven) and perfect bad (hell), between eternal union with God or eternal separation from Him. Since he is the most perfect good, completely being separated from Him must be the most perfect bad. That is why there is hell. If it was just kind of bad, say non-existence, it wouldn’t be the perfect bad. For love to exist on this earth that choice is necessary, to love or not to love. God has chosen to love us. Now we can choose to love Him or not. We cannot unite ourselves with perfect good or we can separate ourselves and spend our eternity in perfect bad.
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Genesis315
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That is not this thread. This is about how given a good God, people can go to Hell. If you want to discuss whether God exists, start a new thread.
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Gratias_Grace
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Hey Monarcy!
Oh, oh, oh, you have mixed things that not are to be mixed! GOD is GOD! He is all good and cannot be compared with a rapist.
If a non-christian catch you, send you to prison just because you are christian, puts a gun at your head and askes if you believe that Jesus is the son of God, you are supposed to say YES even if that makes you to loose your life (at this side of the world). As a matter of fact you could go to hell if you said NO and the gunman still shot you!
We are not to judge God. We have been warned about the eternety of hell. Our “job” is to choose, not to jugde if we like the idea or not!
G. Grace
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Absalom
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If you need proof that He was God, then you have no business asking for such proof. How about you prove He wasn’t God, and if you want, I’ll even invite you to prove that there is no God period. Can you do that?
If God is Who Christians say He is, then He can do anything and be any way He darn well pleases. If there is no God, then there is no good or bad. Humans have proven quite definitively that morality (good/bad) becomes relative when it is left up to them. If God is Who He says He is and Who we believe He is, then He is good if He says He is good simply by the very fact that He said it.
If God is Who Christians say He is, then He can do anything and be any way He darn well pleases. If there is no God, then there is no good or bad. Humans have proven quite definitively that morality (good/bad) becomes relative when it is left up to them. If God is Who He says He is and Who we believe He is, then He is good if He says He is good simply by the very fact that He said it.
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ahimsaman72
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Absalom!:
Peace…
The Christian concept of hell is a carryover from every other religion before it - except Judaism. It was part and parcel of cosmology from previous Paganism and regrettably continues today. That this God would create a people, allow them to fall so far from His grace and spend eternity in a suffering pit of fireball and anguish is repugnant to the conscience of every person to ever live, especially mine. It is not justice.
Peace…
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Absalom!:
So, if Kim IL-Sung has all the power in his country it is okay for him to be a jerk and kill, rape or torture anyone he pleases, just because he has the power to do so? That’s the kind of logic you are using here. And it’s faulty moral logic.
Peace…
Obviously morality is relative to Him also. The wicked continue to live and prosper while the righteous suffer and die young. How many times have you seen this in real life? Many, many times. Just because someone has power to whatever he darn well pleases doesn’t give them the go-ahead to be an unjust tyrant.
So, if Kim IL-Sung has all the power in his country it is okay for him to be a jerk and kill, rape or torture anyone he pleases, just because he has the power to do so? That’s the kind of logic you are using here. And it’s faulty moral logic.
Peace…
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Absalom
Guest
Sorry, can’t agree with you here (and I’m sure you expected that since I’m a narrow-minded religious person, and all
). Kim IL-Sung did not create the people who are under his tyrannical rule. They owe him nothing.As for the Christian notion of hell coming from paganism, that doesn’t prove a whole lot to me. I like the whole elephant-being-touched-by-several-blind-men analogy, but I’m sure you’ve heard that already if you make this argument often. I’m also aware that the concept of the flood (from Genesis) and the idea of the son of God being born to a virgin and the concept behind the Eucharist have been present in some form or fashion in various other religions. Some people see this as proof that Christianity is derivative . . . but others see it as proof that God planted in every person the intellect necessary to find the truth. I am of the latter pack.
Of what worth would our love and obedience be to God if we could not give it freely?
But wait! I forgot - we are little nothingnesses and love from itty-bitty worms like us can’t matter to an infinite deity. Alas.
Sorry, I’m egotistical. I think we were created for that very reason. Flog me with a bull whip.
I believe that God gives us all of the opportunity and all of the grace necessary for our salvation (even if we are never exposed to Christianity). I believe that He meets us where we are. If that makes me naive and stupid, then fine, I’m naive and stupid (indeed, I am a self-described narrow-minded-religious-person). If I lack the wider vision that liberals, secular humanists, atheists, agnostics, or whatever possess, then fine, I lack it. If there is, in fact, no God, then why will it matter to me in the end? I’ve wasted my whole life when I could have lived it in atheistic bliss deciding my own morality? How will I care? I’ll be rotting.
Cheers.
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Absalom
Guest
And about unrighteous prospering and the righteous dying young . . . Christianity is not about what you can get in this life. It’s about what you can get in the next. I know that, regrettably, many Christians go around thinking that if you’re right with God then you’ll be happy and have a husband/wife and some kids and have lots of STUFF and get to go on vacations when you want and not have to ever be hungry or sick or die before the age of 75 or do without your favorite TV shows and you’ll be liked by everybody and you won’t have to ever hurt or whatever else some people think. They’ve got it completely bass-ackwards. Christianity teaches that Christ called us to take up our crosses and die.
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