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Needy1
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1ke
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This is apocalyptic literature. It is full of symbols.
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Obl_OSB
Guest
God is loving, yes. God is good and gracious, yes. God is also Just. The effects of sin are part of God’s divine justice. The revelation given to St. John portrays the fulfillment of this justice being carried out. A lot of it is symbolic though we have to also acknowledge that the denial of Christ, through our free will, will have repercussions. The Book of Revelation portrays the end of the world through God’s wrath, this is specifically God’s response to sin. It also shows God’s supremacy and kingship in Christ and the overcoming of the evil one, the devil. In the restoration of God’s planned order, following the tribulation, the grace of God and His love is shown in the 21st chapter as the new heaven and new earth are described, where God dispenses his graces upon His people.
Pax Christi!
Pax Christi!
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
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Why would ungrateful humans rebel against a loving God?
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FiveLinden
Guest
Why would a loving God to this sort of thing, day after day, hour after hour, to billions of living creatures who have never sinned and have no hope of eternal life?
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joseie
Guest
These types of questions are almost a fashion now especially by those who doubt the existence of a God itself.If God created every thing why should he make some suffer,ill,bad,go to hell etc.He should have created everything perfect,good, happy,healthy. But this is what he did originally. However man was given a free will (otherwise he would have been a robot) and he sinned.Then all it’s consequences followed namely suffering,illness,death…Then God himself took birth as man suffered and died for men and opened the door for eternal life.But only to those following him.A good and just deal.Still some remain adamant and refuse him.For those ,God directly and purposely inflict sufferings as described in the Revelation.Finally,good people happily live with him for ever.
Always keep it in mind this broad outline of the relationship between man and God.You will not have such doubts…
Always keep it in mind this broad outline of the relationship between man and God.You will not have such doubts…
I agree with you @1ke .This is apocalyptic literature. It is full of symbols.
The Apocalyptic literature in the Bible has been too often taken too literally .
It needs to be read in the context of the Bible as a whole .
I see what happens when this is not done when Jehovah’s Witnesses come knocking on the door .
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KevinK
Guest
What is the point of it?
Tis_Bearself
Patron
And unfortunately, each person who asks seems to think they are the first one to come up with the question, and never bothers to do any research into the tons of material, including on this forum, that has been written in the past, responding to it.These types of questions are almost a fashion now especially by those who doubt the existence of a God itself.
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ahs
Guest
That question is only relevant if God “does” the act, as opposed to people purposefully choosing their own demise; and if this world is all there is (I.e. there is nothing after death and no possible union with God) and/or said persons had no choice in their own choosing.Why would a loving God to this sort of thing, day after day, hour after hour, to billions of living creatures who have never sinned and have no hope of eternal life?
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mythbuster1
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Even these are mercy, for the demonstration of His righteous indignation at the sins of men, together with the imminence of death, calls men to repentance. Alas, it is repeated over and over in Revelation, “They would not repent.” If anyone dies in these plagues and goes to Hell, it is because he did not heed the many warnings which even the plagues themselves provided. If anyone dies in these plagues and goes to Heaven, it is most likely that seeing God’s wrath provoked repentance, and was thereby responsible for that sinner’s conversion.
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FiveLinden
Guest
So taking, by your own definition, a caterpillar parisitised by a wasp, whose larvae is eating it from the inside out, a system apparently by your belief repeatedly designed by God, what have you to say about how a loving God can do this, millions of times a day?Why would a loving God to this sort of thing, day after day, hour after hour, to billions of living creatures who have never sinned and have no hope of eternal life?
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meltzerboy2
Guest
I would think because humans are humans, without complete understanding, without complete love, without complete anything, while Gd, being Who He is, is held to a higher standard, THE highest standard, based on His own nature. It would be similar to our punishing a very young child, a baby, or a pet, despite their not having the means to understand why they are being punished.
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FiveLinden
Guest
That would not be something we would be likely to do if we were both good an knowledgable would it? Let alone all good and all knowing?It would be similar to our punishing a very young child, a baby, or a pet, despite their not having the means to understand why they are being punished.
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PetraG
Guest
Read the whole book. It is written about a time when:
They worshiped the dragon because it gave its authority to the beast; they also worshiped the beast and said, “Who can compare with the beast or who can fight against it?”
The beast was given a mouth uttering proud boasts and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for forty-two months, and opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling and those who dwell in heaven. It was also allowed to wage war against the holy ones and conquer them, and it was granted authority over every tribe, people, tongue, and nation.
All the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, all whose names were not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life, which belongs to the Lamb who was slain. Rev. 13:4-8
This is talking about a time when the whole human race has taken sides in very stark terms, for it also says, “Anyone who worships the beast or its image, or accepts its mark on forehead or hand, will also drink the wine of God’s fury, poured full strength into the cup of his wrath, and will be tormented in burning sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb. The smoke of the fire that torments them will rise forever and ever, and there will be no relief day or night for those who worship the beast or its image or accept the mark of its name.” Rev. 14:9-11
This is not describing a time with innocent bystanders being exposed to judgment. There were those who are allied with the beast against God, who had worshiped the beast and accepted the mark of the beast, who had persecuted those from God. The innocent were described as those who did not do that, and the judgment is described as righteous. This is not some “choose a few favorites and too bad for the rest of you” situation. If you read the book as a whole, it is a “stand fast, for what goes around will eventually come back around” picture.
They worshiped the dragon because it gave its authority to the beast; they also worshiped the beast and said, “Who can compare with the beast or who can fight against it?”
The beast was given a mouth uttering proud boasts and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for forty-two months, and opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling and those who dwell in heaven. It was also allowed to wage war against the holy ones and conquer them, and it was granted authority over every tribe, people, tongue, and nation.
All the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, all whose names were not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life, which belongs to the Lamb who was slain. Rev. 13:4-8
This is talking about a time when the whole human race has taken sides in very stark terms, for it also says, “Anyone who worships the beast or its image, or accepts its mark on forehead or hand, will also drink the wine of God’s fury, poured full strength into the cup of his wrath, and will be tormented in burning sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb. The smoke of the fire that torments them will rise forever and ever, and there will be no relief day or night for those who worship the beast or its image or accept the mark of its name.” Rev. 14:9-11
This is not describing a time with innocent bystanders being exposed to judgment. There were those who are allied with the beast against God, who had worshiped the beast and accepted the mark of the beast, who had persecuted those from God. The innocent were described as those who did not do that, and the judgment is described as righteous. This is not some “choose a few favorites and too bad for the rest of you” situation. If you read the book as a whole, it is a “stand fast, for what goes around will eventually come back around” picture.
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PetraG
Guest
It is aimed at Christians being persecuted, telling them to stand fast, because justice will prevail in the end and those who trample on the rest of the human race as if there is no God will eventually reap what they sow.What is the point of it?
Think the Battle Hymn of the Republic (which used Revelations as its inspiration), only in ultimate terms. It is a vision for those being oppressed, for those fighting a difficult fight and wondering if the right will prevail over a long-dominant force of darkness. This is a picture of these dark days that happen over and over within human history, envisioned in light of the final day when this evil force gathers up its greatest assault, comes to an ultimate and a very starkly-drawn head without grey areas of those not aligning themselves with either what is right or with what is oppressive, and is ultimately evil being put to utter defeat.
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PetraG
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Just to clarify: We don’t know that.The Apocalyptic literature in the Bible has been too often taken too literally .
This is what I mean: If you wrote a prophesy in, say, the year 800 AD about what happened during the Shoah and the World Wars, people would say it had to be figurative to say people could do that, it was too wild to happen. Who in those days could have envisioned such a horrible war, that regardless of evil intent that humans were capable of such destruction, of dropping poisons and fire from the air and rocking the earth with the bombs, of burning entire cities and trying to wipe out whole races of people?
We have to know that in the 20th century the capacity of humans to manipulate their environment to evil ends entered what is probably the infancy of its most fearsome phase. We don’t know what the future holds, and we don’t know if even now we have words to describe what the future might literally hold that are any less “figurative” than the worlds of Revelation. It may also be beyond even our ability and our jaded comprehension to describe what is to come. If we were to attempt to describe it literally, our writing might be symbolic only in the sense that we have no vocabulary for something that horrific.
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
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Except that we humans do have the capacity to think and love and make choices.. It would be similar to our punishing a very young child, a baby, or a pet, despite their not having the means to understand why they are being punished.
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PennyinCanada
Guest
Think of the terrible terrible events that happened in the last century, by the will of evil men. When men, women and children were packed into cattle cars, shipped to Auschwitz to be burned, was that with the order of God or on the order of men? (International Holocaust Remembrance Day happens to be today)
When 60 million babies were killed by abortion in the US, was that by the choice of humans or the choice of God?
Do you think that God, Who said ‘Love your enemies and do good to those that hate you’ would not be greatly grieved by our evil choices? It baffles me that when evil happens people blame God for it. Have we not learned anything about the evil that dwells in the human heart after the last century?
When 60 million babies were killed by abortion in the US, was that by the choice of humans or the choice of God?
Do you think that God, Who said ‘Love your enemies and do good to those that hate you’ would not be greatly grieved by our evil choices? It baffles me that when evil happens people blame God for it. Have we not learned anything about the evil that dwells in the human heart after the last century?
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Needy1
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Then what’s the samples of interpretations for these verses?
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