Why would Mary remain a virgin...after marriage?

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And here is where your problem lies: you do not recognize that God’s Word was delivered in not one but two modes: in writing (Scripture) and by word of mouth (Tradition).
I understand that’s a Catholic “belief,” but that “belief” is not supported by Scripture. The NT passage by Paul you are referring to, if you read the SURROUNDING passages, Paul is “not” referring to “different” traditions (one by word, one by letter), but the SAME tradition (“either” by word or by letter). So, the different “modes” Paul is referring to is referring to spreading the SAME MESSAGE in one of two modes. Plus, it still doesn’t change the fact that Scripture does NOT support that Mary “remained” a virgin, but just the opposite. So, if a “tradition” conflicts with Scripture, the “tradition” is wrong.
Your other problem is that you do not believe that Jesus gave real authority to Peter and the Apostles.
That’s wrong to. Jesus gave authority to Peter & the apostles, but not the kind of “authority” that your extrabiblical “tradition” teaches. Otherwise, you’d accept what the Bible supports vs. your “precepts the doctrines of MEN” (Matthew 15:9).
Consequently, you feel you are free to ignore anything that isn’t in your Bible in addition to being free to interpret the Bible as you please.
False again! I “ignore” anything outside of the Bible that conflicts with it. Anything that has been “added” to the Bible that conflicts with it is wrong, such as Mary “remaining” a virgin, since Scripture supports the opposite.
 
thetaz:

I posted a summation of the Catholic position in posts #519-522.

In post #689, I wrote:

Matthew
  1. Mary Magdalene,
  2. Mary mother of James & Joseph,
  3. Mother of James & John (This was Salome.)
Mark
  1. Mary Magdalene
  2. Mary mother of James & Joseph
  3. Salome (mother of James & John)
Mark 15:40
40 There were also women looking on from a distance; among them were 1) Mary Magdalene, and 2) Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and 3) Salome.

Luke
  1. women who had followed Jesus (Thanks, Luke. )
John
  1. Mary mother of Jesus
  2. Mary’s sister(in-law), Mary the wife of Clopas (who was Joseph’s brother)
  3. Mary Magdalene
Total : Four
  1. Mary
  2. Mary, wife of Clopas
  3. Salome, daughter of Mary & Clopas, wife of Zebedee, mother of James and John (sons of thunder)
  4. Mary Magdalene
Sketch this out:

Joseph and Clopas were brothers. They each married a woman named Mary.

Clopas and his wife, Mary of Clopas had at least five children: Simon/Symeon, James the Lesser, Jude, Joses/Joseph and Salome.

Salome married Zebedee and bore two sons, the “sons of thunder”, James and John.

John was a second cousin of Jesus, and Mary was entrusted to his care.

Mark 16:1
When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and [her daughter] Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.​
 
Yeah, I have. And you haven’t “proven” anything. At least not Scripturally. Just what other people throughout Church history “believed” while discounting others - including Catholics - who have disagreed with them. But “majority” does not always equal truth. God = truth. God’s Word = truth (John 17:17). And God’s “truthful” Word supports that Mary had other children.
Name them and the verse which calls anyone other than Jesus a “son of Mary” or a “daughter of Mary”.

WOMEN AT THE CROSS

Matthew
  1. Mary Magdalene,
  2. Mary mother of James & Joseph,
  3. Mother of James & John (This was Salome.)
Mark
  1. Mary Magdalene
  2. Mary mother of James & Joseph
  3. Salome (mother of James & John)
Mark 15:40
40 There were also women looking on from a distance; among them were 1) Mary Magdalene, and 2) Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and 3) Salome.

Luke
  1. women who had followed Jesus (Thanks, Luke. )
John
  1. Mary mother of Jesus
  2. Mary’s sister(in-law), Mary the wife of Clopas (who was Joseph’s brother)
  3. Mary Magdalene
Total : Four Women at the foot of the Cross
  1. Mary
  2. Mary, wife of Clopas
  3. Salome, daughter of Mary & Clopas, wife of Zebedee, mother of James and John (sons of thunder)
  4. Mary Magdalene
 
Absolutely NOT. Infallible and inerrant are not the same thing. A very errant and sinful man can proclaim truth and be infallible. And you truly don’t understand papal infallibility.
I get that. I’m not saying otherwise. I’m saying that a fallible man CAN ALSO utter falllible & errant things. The Bible CAN’T, because unlike fallible, errant men who are capable of being wrong, the Bible CAN’T be wrong - ever! I understand papal infallibility just fine. I was only using it as an example of a pope speaking with “papally infallability” “ex cathedra” while at the same in totally unrelated subject ALSO has the ability to say something false.
But let’s assume you are correct. Which of Peter’s letters are you ready to toss from the Bible? He’s not infallible as you claim, so his letters MUST be removed from the Bible, correct? And let’s also cut out any place that he speaks in the Bible, ESPECIALLY in the Book of Acts. Right?
Again, that’s not what I’m saying! Peter’s letters are infallible, but not because PETER is infallible, because THE HOLY SPIRIT IS, who guided Peter. Yet, despite THE HOLY SPIRIT GUIDING Peter to write infallible, inerrant words in Scripture, Peter - HIMSELF - is not inerrant nor infallible, BECAUSE Peter is capable of uttering falsehoods AS WELL AS uttering truths. If Peter was infallible & inerrant - in and of himself, all of the time - then Paul wouldn’t have needed to “condemn him to his face” for uttering falsehoods - something an “infallible & inerrant” person - in & of themselves - would NOT be able to do.

You really aren’t understanding this. 😦

Col 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12 when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Seems pretty clear. And why would replace something for another, and not change anything about it? The New Covenant replaced the Old, but it certainly is NOT the same. Also with baptism, it replaced circumcision, and it is broader and encapsulates men and women.
 
So? Does this mean that Jesus wasn’t preparing the leadership? Or what had the last three years of discipleship been about?

Infallibility and impeccability are two different things. Catholics have NEVER claimed that the pope is impeccable.

You have erroneously concluded that inspiration = impeccable. It doesn’t, and therefore, you are wrong.

Show me a verses which calls anyone other than Jesus a son or daughter of Mary.

I have read all of your posts, and you’re getting repetitious. Not one verses calls anyone a son or daughter of Mary, does it?

There are only two possibilities; the “half-brothers” are either:
  1. Joseph’s children by a previous marriage.
  2. Cousins via Joseph’s brother, Clopas and the “other” Mary.
Randy I do not know if I read taz’s post #830 correctly, but just where in the Bible, which he states, that the Catholic Church added its interpretations to counter the idea that Mary remaining a virgin after the birth of Jesus is NOT supported. Do you understand it that way" If so I would be interested in knowing which Bible translation, Chapter and verse, which has the language where the Catholic Church adds to it.
 
Mary was married to and im guessing lived with her husband.
Why would they NOT engage in reproducing children?
Here is your post I like the part where you are saying I’m guessing this makes you a person adding to the words of scripture.

No guessing here. :“Henceforth”, which means from the time she said it until the end of time.
“All generations”, I would think all generations includes all that refuse to call her blessed today. Am I wrong along with all the millions that do call her blessed ?
“Shall (‘will’, in some Bibles)”, denotes a command and not a suggestion.
“Call me blessed”. Why is this simple verse ignored by millions who claim to be Bible believers?

F. Since Mary, as the Mother of GOD, and Queen of Saints, is higher than Enoch or Elijah, why would anyone believe she was not taken up as they were, except to a higher place? Remember, the gates of heaven were opened when GOD died on the cross.

G. The early Churches scrambled for ‘relics’ of the early Saints as they died. There is no record of any Church obtaining ‘relics’ of the Blessed Virgin. Her ‘relics’ would be the most prized of all. There are no first class ‘relics’ of an assumed person, because there is no body of that person left on earth from which to obtain them.

H. Just because the Bible, at first glance, says little about the Assumption of Mary, does not indicate that she was not assumed. To turn that statement around, Holy Scripture does not say that she was not assumed either.

I. For GOD’s ways are not our ways, Isa 55:8, so why do people try to bring Him down to our human level?
He can do whatever He wants without asking us first. Since He made everything out of nothing, why then could He not Assume the mother of Jesus Christ into heaven body and soul?

God bless:)
 
Name them and the verse which calls anyone other than Jesus a “son of Mary” or a “daughter of Mary”.
Show me in Scripture the WORD “Trinity” - not just the verses that support the “concept” of the Trinity. You’re using the same argument. These “brothers” of Jesus being Mary’s other sons are just as Scripturally explicit as the “concept” of Trinity is, without Scripture having to use the WORDS “son of Mary” or “daughter” of Mary. But this only occurs if you understand - exegetically - the various families based on the women at the cross. Plus, as I’ve mentioned - NUMEROUS times - the NT isn’t about MARY, but about JESUS. And this is why Jesus’ relationships are in relation to JESUS, not Mary. And remember, it was an UNBELIEVER who referred to Jesus as “the son of Mary.”
 
I didn’t realize you considered Scripture “massive amounts of misinformation or total falsehoods,” because this is what I’ve been posting. I haven’t been ADDING “massive amounts” of “information” that’s NOT found in Scripture, & calling it “tradition.” That is what YOU are doing, not me.
It is based on your massive amounts of misinformation or total falsehoods based on your own personal errant interpretations of Scripture and lack of understanding of the Church that Christ established as the pillar of truth. You want us to believe a different truth, your truth.
 
Randy I do not know if I read taz’s post #830 correctly, but just where in the Bible, which he states, that the Catholic Church added its interpretations to counter the idea that Mary remaining a virgin after the birth of Jesus is NOT supported. Do you understand it that way" If so I would be interested in knowing which Bible translation, Chapter and verse, which has the language where the Catholic Church adds to it.
What has been “added” is that Mary “remained” a virgin after the birth of Jesus. NOWHERE does it state that.
 
It is based on your massive amounts of misinformation or total falsehoods based on your own personal errant interpretations of Scripture and lack of understanding of the Church that Christ established as the pillar of truth. You want us to believe a different truth, your truth.
Again, I didn’t realize you considered Scripture “massive amounts of misinformation or total falsehoods,” because this is what I’ve been posting. I haven’t been ADDING “massive amounts” of “information” that’s NOT found in Scripture, & calling it “tradition.” That is what YOU are doing, not me.
 
Again, I didn’t realize you considered Scripture “massive amounts of misinformation or total falsehoods,” because this is what I’ve been posting. I haven’t been ADDING “massive amounts” of “information” that’s NOT found in Scripture, & calling it “tradition.” That is what YOU are doing, not me.
No sir, you are using Scripture as a tool to assert somthing that is not true.
 
What has been “added” is that Mary “remained” a virgin after the birth of Jesus. NOWHERE does it state that.
But you state that the Catholic Church added to Scripture, where in Scripture did that happen
 
You asked for the verse. I answered.
Then Thomas is NOT part of the Church? Because Jesus didn’t “breathe” on Thomas! Plus if Peter is God-breathed, then are you saying that Scripture can utter falsehoods? Because Jesus “breathed” on Peter, yet he later uttered a falsehood when Paul “condemned him to his face.” You’re still not getting that that passage you quoted has NOTHING to do with Jesus “breathing” the Holy Spirit on them - which didn’t occur until Pentecost - in the same way Scripture is “God-breathed.” Otherwise, you have Thomas NOT being part of the Church since Jesus did NOT breathe on Him, & Scripture uttering falsehoods since Peter was breathed on by Jesus, yet uttered falsehoods.
 
But you state that the Catholic Church added to Scripture, where in Scripture did that happen
UGH! You’re not understanding what I’m saying! Pay attention, please! What has been ADDED to Scripture is the Mary “remained” a virgin after the birth of Jesus. That “tradition” is found NOWHERE in Scripture. I DIDN’T say that SCRIPTURE said that “the Catholic church added to Scripture.” You really have to learn to pay attention to people write, rather than thinking about your next reply.
 
These “brothers” of Jesus being Mary’s other sons are just as Scripturally explicit as the “concept” of Trinity is, without Scripture having to use the WORDS “son of Mary” or “daughter” of Mary.
In Acts 1:12-15, there is a gathering of about 120 “brothers” of Jesus. That’s not “Mary Ever Virgin” that’s “Mary Ever Pregnant” :rolleyes:
 
No sir, you are using Scripture as a tool to assert somthing that is not true.
I could say the same thing about you. The only difference, I’m not ADDING anything to what Scripture supports. On one hand, you rebuke sola scriptura as being unbiblical, yet when someone uses it, you condemn of ADDING to Scripture. Those accusations are contradictory. Either someone who uses sola scriptura is false, or if ADDING to Scripture is false. Sola scriptura doesn’t ADD, & ADDING isn’t sola scriptura. So, make up your mind “which” you are against, because I am doing the former (sola scriptura), not the later (adding).
 
UGH! You’re not understanding what I’m saying! Pay attention, please! What has been ADDED to Scripture is the Mary “remained” a virgin after the birth of Jesus. That “tradition” is found NOWHERE in Scripture. I DIDN’T say that SCRIPTURE said that “the Catholic church added to Scripture.” You really have to learn to pay attention to people write, rather than thinking about your next reply.
SCRIPTURE AND TRADITION
BIBLE ALONE OR BIBLE PLUS TRADITION?
1Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you. 2Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter. 2Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition. Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture. Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won’t. Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels. 2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men. 2Pet 1:20 - no prophecy is a matter of private interpretation. 2Pet 3:15-16 - Paul’s letters can be difficult to grasp & interpret. 1Pet 1:25 - God’s eternal word = word preached to you. Rom 10:17 - faith come from what is heard. 1Cor 15:1-2 - being saved if you hold fast to the word I preached. Mk 16:15 - go to the whole world, proclaim gospel to every creature
Mt 23:2-3 - chair of Moses; observe whatever they tell you Tradition Condemned?.
1Cor 11:2 - commends them for following Apostolic tradition. 2Thess 2:15 - commands them to keep traditions. 2Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
 
Here is where you are deviating from Scripture & “ADDING” your “belief” to Scripture. If Mary of Clopas was Mary’s sister-in-law, John would have used the Greek word for “in-law” that is used in other Gospel passages.
Your proof of this?
Plus, the Hebrew DID have a word for “sister-in-law” used in the OT. So, if John meant “sister-in-law” instead of just sister, he would have used it.
Evidence, please.
Plus, in the Gospels, the Greek word for “sister” (adelphe) is used almost EXCLUSIVELY to refer to uterine siblings.
I think I dealt with EVERY case in post #519. If not, please let me know which verses I overlooked.

Are you down to adelphe only? Is that because you cannot make the same case for adelphos?
The ONLY exception is when Jesus is using to contrast His biological family (“mother & brothers on the OUTSIDE”) with His believing spiritual “brothers & sisters & mother” on the INSIDE. Every other time in the Gospels, “adelphe” refers to LITERAL uterine sisters - NEVER sister-in-laws - again, because there are Greek, as well as Hebrew, words available AND USED in Scripture for “sister-in-law.”
Examples, please.
Plus, John would be IGNORING His own mother who John was PRESENT WITH her at the cross. It’s extremely unlikely that Matthew & Mark would mention her by name, yet John completely omitted her - IN HIS OWN GOSPEL! Therefore, Salome - not the “other” Mary - was Mary’s sister.
:rotfl:

theta, you need to know that I RARELY use that smiley, but I couldn’t help it when I read what you just wrote.

First, John goes out of his way to avoid drawing attention to himself in his Gospel.

John 13:22-24
22 The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he was speaking. 23 One of his disciples—the one whom Jesus loved—was reclining next to him; 24 Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking.

WE know that John was the beloved disciple, but JOHN never says that he is that disciple.

John also avoids naming himself here:

John 18
15 Simon Peter and another disciple followed Jesus. Since that disciple was known to the high priest, he went with Jesus into the courtyard of the high priest, 16 but Peter was standing outside at the gate. So the other disciple, who was known to the high priest, went out, spoke to the woman who guarded the gate, and brought Peter in.

and here:

John 20
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb. 2 So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” 3 Then Peter and the other disciple set out and went toward the tomb. 4 The two were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 He bent down to look in and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen wrappings lying there, 7 and the cloth that had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen wrappings but rolled up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; 9 for as yet they did not understand the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 10 Then the disciples returned to their homes.

Now, if John is so careful about tooting his own horn in these passages, do you honestly think he is going to say, “My mom was there, too…”?
Yes, I have. But you can’t see this because you refuse to acknowledge - Scripturally - that there are FOUR women at the cross instead of THREE.
I have. Repeatedly.

Mary, Mother of Jesus (married to Joseph)
Mary of Clopas (married to Clopas)
Salome (married to Zebedee)
Mary Magdalene (married to no one)

Second, how much do you know about Anne and Joachim, Mary’s parents? Mary was an only child, and Salome was NOT Mary’s sister.

You make a big fuss about Catholics adding to scripture to support our beliefs, etc., but you are actually doing the exact same thing.

If you disagree with what I have written concerning the four women and their husbands, please tell me who you believe each of them was married to and why.
 
In Acts 1:12-15, there is a gathering of about 120 “brothers” of Jesus. That’s not “Mary Ever Virgin” that’s “Mary Ever Pregnant” :rolleyes:
I’ve addressed this already Erich. Luke uses two uses of the Greek term “adelphos” - the first for Jesus’ half-brothers who are mentioned WITH Mary, & again as a general term for spiritual “brothers” (the 120). The mistake you are making is the same one you are using for not believing Jesus had half-brothers. You are isolating a SINGLE definition of the word “adelphos” where it can mean spiritual brother, & misapplying it in BOTH verses in Acts 1:12-15, rather than realize Luke is using the same Greek word differently: first, as Jesus’ half-brothers (which is supported by other Scriptures), & the second, as the 120 spiritual “brothers” collectively at Pentecost. I would not use that argument in the future, because it’s a strawman that Protestants don’t believe in, nor apply.
 
UGH! You’re not understanding what I’m saying! Pay attention, please! What has been ADDED to Scripture is the Mary “remained” a virgin after the birth of Jesus. That “tradition” is found NOWHERE in Scripture. I DIDN’T say that SCRIPTURE said that “the Catholic church added to Scripture.” You really have to learn to pay attention to people write, rather than thinking about your next reply.
No, we did not add that. But if we added that…then you are guilty of the same thing…adding to Scripture…only the opposite…of what we added and in opposition to 2000 years of tradition of reading the writings of the Bible.

The tradition of Mary having other children is also not found in the Bible…it is in your interpretation.

Anyway…here is a writing of St. Jerome refuting Helvidius…for believing the same as you…and using the same verses and passages you are using.

newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

Anyway…here is question for you: Why should you be believed and not St. Jerome?
 
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