Why would Mary remain a virgin...after marriage?

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Certainly. But not *everything *that was proclaimed was written down.

Remember, St. Paul preached in the temple for 3 months.

And entering into the synagogue, he spoke boldly for the space of three months, disputing and exhorting concerning the kingdom of God.—Acts 19:8

The sheer volume of writing down EVERYTHING he said would make a scroll impossibly unwieldy.
And since you don’t know what Paul said, you can’t “assume” that what he wrote exceeded or contradicted Scripture. And what Paul would have preached was about Jesus being the promised Jewish Messiah written about in the OT.
Well, since the NT had not yet been written, what you are proposing is that we compare everything to the OT.
Is that what you are telling us to do?
No, I’m saying that what made the Bereans more “noble-minded” was that they compared what was taught TO Scripture, which for the Church includes the NT as well, which both Paul & Peter referred to as Scripture.
Since there is not a single verse that says that Mary did NOT remain a virgin, what you are proposing is a man-made tradition.
You’re arguing from silence. We can know from Scripture that she remained a virgin, because Scripture supports that she had other children.
You heard a (fallible) man say it, who heard another (fallible) man say it…but no one ever read: “Mary birthed other children” in a single page of the Bible.
No, because - again - Scripture supports so. Scripture also doesn’t state that “Peter’s parents birthed other children,” yet we know Peter had a brother (adelphos) - Andrew. So, that’s not a good argument. BTW, did you look up ALL the verses I posted earlier that pertain to the brothers of Jesus? Because that is where I discovered Jesus had half-brothers, not because a “fallible man said so.” You are assuming wrong.
 
What is important is the Truth … your hyperbole aside - Mary being a Virgin informs us about Jesus, Mary being the Mother of God informs us about Jesus and HIs dual Natures, Jesus giving His Mother into the care of John for his mother [and ours] informs us of our relationship as heirs - sons and daughters of God the Father - and our relationship as brothers and sisters of God the Son.

Mary being faithful in her life to the will of God is an example to us [and not as unique as you might think] … Mary was preserved from original sin by Jesus and lived without committing personal sin … Enoch and Elijah too are believed to have lived sinless … Enoch is thought to have been taken directly to heaven without dying even because he walked all his days with the Lord]

The Scriptures inform us of Mary’s place in heaven and we all will be assumed into heaven … Jesus ascended - of His own power - being assumed means we are taken into heaven by our Lord and Savior - would you argue that Mary was not saved by her Son - Jesus the Messiah … and lest you say Jesus would not have already taken His Mother to Himself - He promised the good thief that “This day you will be with me in Heaven” … surely you don’t think that Mary’s “Let it be done unto me according to your Word” was less than the rebuke of the bad thief 🤷

We honor Mary as our Mother because Jesus is our Brother - He is also our Lord, Savior, King of Kings, High Priest, Good Shepherd, Healer, etc.

We honor Mary because she is the best example of how to serve God, she intercedes for us and gives us good advice and example …

Let it be done unto me according to your Word” she is blessed exactly because she does as Jesus said his family would - “who are my mother and my brothers? The ones who hears and does the will of God” … Mary is the perfectly example of that

Do whatever He tells you” - Again - Mary not only tells us to do the what Jesus commands - she actually did what our God asks - even when she did not understand and doing God’s will placed her in peril …

When you disrespect Mary - you disrespect Jesus 😦
I rest my case. as posted . You fit it to a tee. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

My original post:"Actually, we are criticized and perceived as not making as big a deal about anything Mary, almost to the point of dishonor. Really.

Why is it so important to Catholics and others that she was ever virgin ? Is that the seedbed for her immaculateness, then her sinlessness, then her assumption, then her co-redemptrix title, then her mediator role ?."
 
Mary’s spouse was essentially the Holy Spirit. Having relations with Joseph would have been sort of like a spiritual adultery. And consider this: if she had other children, they would have been required by law to care for her after Jesus died. **He gave the care of his mother over to the Apostle John. **

Mary knew where babies came from when the Angel Gabriel came to her. She questioned how a future conception would take place. She was betrothed (marriage in this time worked differently) to Joseph, essentially married but not MARRIED, as in living under same roof. She was confused, perhaps because she was a consecrated virgin and Joseph was a protector of that purity.
 
When you disrespect Mary - you disrespect Jesus 😦
First, saying I “disrespect” Mary simply because I disagree with your religious interpretation of Mary’s post-birth virginal status of Jesus is both personally insulting & violates forum rules. Plus, you can’t prove from Scripture - but rather from your “own” conjectures & “hyperboles” - that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus. The “truth” from Scripture - the Inspired Word of God - is that Mary had other children after the birth of Jesus, that would in no way violate the Law of Moses, nor the Prophets, nor the Psalms, nor any command given by Gabriel to Mary before she married Joseph, & before she conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Based on your statements, you are “elevating” Mary to a level beyond that she is described in Scripture. Mary having other children after the birth of Jesus would in no way violate a single word of Scripture, because that was required of the mother of the Messiah was for her to be a virgin while she was pregnant with Him & AT His birth (Isaiah 7:14), not “also” afterwards. And that is why Mary did (Matthew 1:25). So, I do respect Mary by not “admiring” her higher than she is described in Scripture. Please do not insult me. :mad:
 
Got it.Just looked at your “name”. Is the “sped” for "speed’’ like speed reader teacher ?
Actually, sped is for Special Education. I was a “sped” teacher for about 10 years before I had to retire.
 
This may be a stupid question, but why is it so important to Protestants that Mary had other children, that she had sexual relations wit with Joseph?
That’s not a stupid question. 🙂 It’s because Scripture is the Word of God, & the Word of God doesn’t support that Mary remained a virgin her whole life. It would actually contradict Scripture, since God commanded husbands & wives to “be fruitful & multiply,” & since there was no direct command from God, or an angel, or anyone else to Mary to “remain” a virgin her whole life, & since there is ZERO evidence from Scripture that Mary "planned’ to remain a virgin her whole life (since taking “vows” of chastity among married couples was an extremely rare thing, even in Judaism, & when it is, it’s mentioned in Scripture) there is no reason - Scripturally - be believe that she did. Plus, Scripture supports that Mary had other children after the birth of Jesus, so to believe otherwise, would contradict the Word of God. Just because this is a non-salvation issue, doesn’t permit us as Christians to teach something that is not supported by God’s Word - which believing Mary had other children does not. Thanks for asking. 😃
 
Mary’s spouse was essentially the Holy Spirit. Having relations with Joseph would have been sort of like a spiritual adultery. And consider this: if she had other children, they would have been required by law to care for her after Jesus died. **He gave the care of his mother over to the Apostle John. **

Mary knew where babies came from when the Angel Gabriel came to her. She questioned how a future conception would take place. She was betrothed (marriage in this time worked differently) to Joseph, essentially married but not MARRIED, as in living under same roof. She was confused, perhaps because she was a consecrated virgin and Joseph was a protector of that purity.
But Mary did end up living under the same roof, while she was still pregnant with Jesus. So, are you saying that Mary had two spouses - the Holy Spirit & Joseph, who is described as Mary’s husband?
 
Mary’s spouse was essentially the Holy Spirit. Having relations with Joseph would have been sort of like a spiritual adultery. And consider this: if she had other children, they would have been required by law to care for her after Jesus died. **He gave the care of his mother over to the Apostle John. **

Mary knew where babies came from when the Angel Gabriel came to her. She questioned how a future conception would take place. She was betrothed (marriage in this time worked differently) to Joseph, essentially married but not MARRIED, as in living under same roof. She was confused, perhaps because she was a consecrated virgin and Joseph was a protector of that purity.
I think I asked this question in another post…Forgive me if it was in this forum. Catholics determine that the Holy Spirit was Mary’s spouse from logic, correct? There is no Scripture to back this up, right? And, Mary’s immaculate conception teaching comes from where?

My question is, why would Mary have to be “without sin” in order for Jesus to be conceived? Isn’t God omniscient and couldn’t He have caused Jesus’ conception without all of the trying to be logical and understand it from our small view of His power? I mean, I’ve always considered it a Wonderful Mystery that Mary was able to become pregnant by the Holy Spirit.
 
Certainly, this is from a very, well-respected Catholic source:

“St. Andrew, the Apostle, son of Jonah, or John (Matthew 16:17; John 1:42)”

newadvent.org/cathen/01471a.htm
😃

A Catholic encyclopedia is not to be mistaken for the magisterium, well respected or not. It’s an encyclopedia.

There is no Catholic teaching that affirms that Andrew is the son of John.

The Church is silent on this.
My point was since the Catholic church doesn’t have a problem with Peter not being the “only” son of John (Andrew being the other), even though Jesus refers to Peter as “THE son” of John, & even though we know Andrew was his brother (adelphos) - and according to NewAdvent, the “OTHER son” of John, then **the argument that Jesus is described as “THE son” of Mary **doesn’t mean Jesus was her only son, anymore than Peter isn’t John’s only son, either.
Sure. 🤷

Were you operating under the misapprehension that this is our argument?

We are stating that there IS NO VERSE in Scripture that says that Mary birthed any other children.

As such, you are creating tradition that is not founded in Scripture.

That’s a very tenuous position for you to espouse, given the paradigm you embrace as the Bible (not the Church) being the pillar and foundation of truth.
Therefore, the “THE son” of Jesus argument doesn’t work.
I haven’t been presenting that argument.

Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?
 
So, are you saying that Mary had two spouses - the Holy Spirit & Joseph, who is described as Mary’s husband?
What is it you believe? Did Mary conceive a child with someone not her husband? Or is Joseph her husband?
 
Mary knew where babies came from when the Angel Gabriel came to her. She questioned how a future conception would take place. She was betrothed (marriage in this time worked differently) to Joseph, essentially married but not MARRIED, as in living under same roof. She was** confused,*** perhaps because she was a consecrated virgin and Joseph was a protector of that purity.*
I am glad you only say perhaps. I have read the St James Protoevangelium which had such "renderings’ , which is spurious, and I think the church condemned it.

Don’t think Mary was confused, but was all too willing to obey, and knew “how babies were made” . The prophecy was for a maiden to have the ChristChild, and it was understood to be by the "normal process of human procreation/marriage. Do not think it was understood that no “man” would be required.

What you take for “'confusion”’ is Mary plea to the angel that though fully willing, it was out of her hands. She could not impregnate herself . She did not know the HS would do it yet, and most importantly, **she did not know when Joseph would consummate the marriage. **It could have been next month, maybe even next year (have any of you been engaged for a long, long time ? You know, anxious to get a move on, but your betrothed is slow, hesitant ? It takes two to tango.) Mary was willing but what about Joseph is all Mary was saying. No confusion. ** Mary was quite astute and honest to present the problem or condition of her obedience to the angel. **
 
No, I’m saying that what made the Bereans more “noble-minded” was that they compared what was taught TO Scripture, which for the Church includes the NT as well, which both Paul & Peter referred to as Scripture.
You misunderstand the Bereans completely. It’s a common thing among Protestants.

The sola scripturists were the Thessalonians. Read on.

Berean Rejection of Sola Scriptura
From Steve Ray’s article: catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp

If one group could be tagged as believers in sola scriptura, who would it be, the Thessalonians or the Bereans? The Thessalonians, obviously. They, like the Bereans, examined the Scriptures with Paul in the synagogue, yet they rejected his teaching. They rejected the new teaching, deciding after three weeks of deliberation that Paul’s word contradicted the Torah. Their decision was not completely unjustified from their scriptural perspective. How could the Messiah of God be cursed by hanging on a tree like a common criminal, publicly displayed as one who bore the judgment of God? What kind of king and Messiah would that be? This seemed irreconcilable to them (see Simon J. Kistemaker, Acts [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1990], 614).

When some of the Greeks and prominent citizens did accept Jesus as Messiah, the Jews became jealous—and rightfully so, from their perspective, since the new believers separated themselves from the synagogue and began meeting elsewhere, at Jason’s house. The Jews naturally considered themselves the authoritative interpreters of the Torah. Who were the Gentiles to interpret Scripture and decide important theological issues or accept additional revelation? They were the “dogs,” not the chosen custodians of the oracles of God (see William Barclay, The Acts of the Apostles [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Westminster Press, 1976], 128).

We can see, then, that if anyone could be classified as adherents to sola scriptura it was the Thessalonian Jews. They reasoned from the Scriptures alone and concluded that Paul’s new teaching was “unbiblical.”

The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paul’s new oral teaching as the word of God (as Paul claimed his oral teaching was; see 1 Thess. 2:13). The Bereans, before accepting the oral word of God from Paul, a tradition as even Paul himself refers to it (see 2 Thess. 2:15), examined the Scriptures to see if these things were so. They were noble-minded precisely because they “received the word with all eagerness.” **Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded—not that they searched the Scriptures. A perusal of grammars and commentaries makes it clear that they were “noble-minded” not for studying Scripture, but for treating Paul more civilly than did the Thessalonians—with an open mind and generous courtesy (see I. Howard Marshall, “The Acts of the Apostles” in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1981], 5:280). **

The Bereans searched the Torah no less than the Thessalonians, yet they were eager to accept words of God from the mouth of Paul, in addition to what they already held to be Scripture, that is, the Law and the Prophets. Even if one claims that Paul preached the gospel and not a “tradition,” it is clear that the Bereans were accepting new revelation that was not contained in their Scriptures. These Berean Jews accepted oral teaching, the tradition of the apostles, as equal to Scripture, in addition to, and as an “extension” of, the Torah. This is further illustrated by the Christian community’s reception of Paul’s epistles as divinely inspired Scripture (see 2 Peter 3:16; here Peter seems to acknowledges Paul’s writings as equal to the “other Scriptures,” which can be presumed to refer to the Old Testament).

+++

Those who followed the doctrine of sola scriptura, the Thessalonians, rejected Paul’s oral preaching and the long awaited Messiah. Those who accepted oral teaching AND scripture, the Bereans, accepted the Gospel and the Messiah.

Additionally, although both groups searched the scriptures, they came to contradictory conclusions about the Messiah. Clearly, scripture alone is insufficient to ensure proper interpretation.
 
First, saying I “disrespect” Mary simply because I disagree with your religious interpretation of Mary’s post-birth virginal status of Jesus is both personally insulting & violates forum rules.
Is it really, Theta? If that were truly the case, Eric would have stepped in.
Plus, you can’t prove from Scripture - but rather from your “own” conjectures & “hyperboles” - that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus.
You are right. Catholics cannot prove from scripture that Mary remained ever virgin. We know this to be a fact because it is Sacred Tradition - the part of the Word of God which you now reject and because an infallible Church has declared the Perpetual Virginity of Mary to be a dogma of the Church.

That is far more authority than you can muster for your counter claims.
The “truth” from Scripture - the Inspired Word of God - is that Mary had other children after the birth of Jesus, that would in no way violate the Law of Moses, nor the Prophets, nor the Psalms, nor any command given by Gabriel to Mary before she married Joseph, & before she conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit.
Nope.

Not a single verse of scripture proves beyond all doubt that Mary had other children. Each and every verse that you twist to squeeze your modern interpretation out of it can be explained in a very logical manner.

The Early Church Fathers held Mary to be ever-virgin, the Early Protestant Reformers hedl Mary to be ever-virgin, the Orthodox hold Mary to be ever-virgin and even many Anglicans and others hold Mary to be ever-virgin. It is a tiny, tiny fraction of all Christians throughout the past 2,000 years that have held your position, and most of those have only appeared in the last two centuries or so.
Based on your statements, you are “elevating” Mary to a level beyond that she is described in Scripture. Mary having other children after the birth of Jesus would in no way violate a single word of Scripture, because that was required of the mother of the Messiah was for her to be a virgin while she was pregnant with Him & AT His birth (Isaiah 7:14), not “also” afterwards. And that is why Mary did (Matthew 1:25).
I agree. If Mary had other children, that would not have violated a single verse of scripture. However, what is known to be true is that she did not. And what you can’t seem to accept despite overwhelming evidence, is that her perpetual virginity does not violate a single verse of scripture, either. :nope:
So, I do respect Mary by not “admiring” her higher than she is described in Scripture. Please do not insult me.
The problem, thetaz, is that you have embraced an anti-Catholic position because you have left the Church and need to continue telling yourself that you made the right decision. You didn’t.

But unless you acknowledge Mary as Queen of Heaven, then you are not really honoring her as fully as the Bible suggests you should.
 
I rest my case. as posted . You fit it to a tee. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

My original post:"Actually, we are criticized and perceived as not making as big a deal about anything Mary, almost to the point of dishonor. Really.

Why is it so important to Catholics and others that she was ever virgin ? Is that the seedbed for her immaculateness, then her sinlessness, then her assumption, then her co-redemptrix title, then her mediator role ?."
This belief that Mary was not “ever Virgin” are innovations - so really it is you who are making the opposite the issue … When someone wants to change basic tenets of the faith - they are the ones placing the importance … and this is an innovation … Do you think that you are a better scripture scholar then the Reformers - all of whom held to this belief and found it important to the faith?

If so upon what basis is your interpretation better?

What great Truth of the Christian faith do you bring by pushing the not ever Virgin Mary upon the faith?

When the early church worked through the various aspects of who Jesus was and What living life as Hos follower - they struggled with things like was Jesus fully human - was Jesus full God … or was Jesus fully God and fully Human … it was during these struggles that truths about Mary we also developed … This is exactly how the Church came to recognize that Mary was the Mother of God - because Jesus is both God and Man - fully Jesus being both Mary gave birth to both Natures - Jesus is not divided …

Where is the historical evidence for these siblings of Jesus through time … Christianity grew and thrived - even as it was persecuted - from a small band of Jewish followers - If there were all of these sisters and brothers - their wives and husbands - nieces and nephews throughout history - where are they … Really - not one ever left a mark that got recorded - not one tried to claim some notoriety for being the flesh and blood relative of Jesus … not one is mentioned - categorically and unequivocally - as being directly related to Mary … not one told a story of growing up with Jesus.

Not one story about growing up with Mary and Joseph as parents and Jesus as an older brother …

No nephew ever tired to claim the Chair of Peter because they were blood relatives of Jesus through Mary 🤷

Scriptural gymnastics that includes reading into the scriptures facts not in evidence …

The Scriptures state that Jesus is the son of the carpenter - but you do not believe that - do you? That Jesus was the son of Joseph? Why not? The Scriptures tell of many things that are improbable - even impossible … it was the lives and testimony of the disciples and of Mary that we believe and those who wrote and passed on this faith through time … so what is the belief that has come down to us through time?

Is it your belief? That Mary was not ever Virgin?

Is it the belief that Mary was perpetually a Virgin?

Through time what is the consistent teaching of the Christian Church remembering that it is the Church that is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth - Ever Virgin or not?
 
The confusion comes from the number of women at the cross, which according to John’s Gospel were four, not the three mentioned in Matthew & Mark’s Gospel who had moved away from the cross after Jesus died.
Yes, John does describe four women being there. This still indicates nothing about Jesus’ “brothers”.
The problem is that this is a pagan source
No, it is not.
that states that Mary’s mid-wife “tested” her virginity by breaking her hymen
Actually, it says that they used the water test from Numbers 5 (sect. 16) and then that the midwife felt for the presence of Mary’s hymen, whereupon the midwife was struck down (sect. 20).
which would no longer make her a virgin
No, it would just remove one of the traditional forms of evidence.
this is the earliest source of Mary’s virginity (140-180 A.D.) - much longer than a “generation” after the time of the apostles.
The Protoevangelium is the earliest extant source with details of the composition of Mary and Joseph’s family, particularly with its repeated references to his children from a previous marriage and to the enormous age gap between her and him. Origen also refers (Comm. Matt. 10.17) to the Gospel of Petter concurring with its claims, but we have lost the text to which he refers.

Inferred dates for the Protoevangelium’s composition vary between the early and late C2nd: as stated, within a lifetime of its subject, and thus easily a sufficiently-brief period to be challenged by living witnesses to its claims. As far as I am aware, no record of any such early-Church challenge to these claims exists.
Actually, we do by Eusebius’ Ecclesiatical History that confirms that Mary & Joseph had children after the birth of Jesus
Confirms this where, exactly? He describes ἀπογόνους ἑνὸς τῶν φερομένων ἀδελφῶν τοῦ σωτῆρος (3.32), which directly implies that he does not accept them simply as Jesus’ brothers. Thus far, I have not seen any point at which he says what you claim him to say.
at least one of His half-brothers (Jude) had grandsons.
According to Hegesippus (or, more precisely, to a παλαιὸς λόγος, says Eusebius, casting more doubt), they survived at least into the reign of Trajan, i.e. to the beginning of the C2nd. Thereafter, they seem to vanish. The same question applies: what happened to them? If Mary had had descendants, the early Church should have been venerating them, and yet where is the mention of Mary’s descendants?
The Orthodox broke away from the RCC long after this Marian dogma was well-established. They simply didn’t disagree with it. So, their “agreement” doesn’t automatically make their “belief” correct or incorrect.
The Orthodox did not break away from the Catholic Church: the two split from each other, and that actually happened well before Photius. Further, as already mentioned in that link I gave you in one of my earliest comments, and repeated since, this is not dogma for the Orthodox: the Orthodox have no problem with disagreement on this matter, and thus some of their own theologians have said, at various points, that they believed that Mary had other children.

Their general consensus is not at all important as historical evidence, but it is crucial as linguistic proof that the English reading of “brothers” is far from necessary: the largest body of native users of biblical Greek have, for two millennia, consistently and without the constraint of dogma read the Greek of the Bible as not defining Jesus’ φερομενοι αδελφοι as συναιμοι.
Fortunately, we don’t need a time machine, because we have Inspired Scripture, that supports that Mary & Joseph did indeed have children after the birth of Jesus, & even named four of their sons.
You keep repeating this, but utterly failing to actually demonstrate it from the text.

Let me summarise this.
  1. Linguistically, the Greek New Testament does not say that Mary had other children. At most, there is ambiguous phrasing which could be read as possibly suggesting that.
  2. Historically, our closest source to the events in question says that Joseph already had other children, and that he was more than old enough to be her father (he calls her a παις), which both explains the references in Scripture and gives natural cause for him not to bed her.
  3. Subsequently, the consensus of the Greek Fathers, not at all bound by dogma, has been that there is no evidence of any such descendants of Mary.
Therefore, from a purely historical viewpoint, the idea of Mary having had other children is less probable than the idea of her having had same.
 
First, saying I “disrespect” Mary simply because I disagree with your religious interpretation of Mary’s post-birth virginal status of Jesus is both personally insulting & violates forum rules. Plus, you can’t prove from Scripture - but rather from your “own” conjectures & “hyperboles” - that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus. The “truth” from Scripture - the Inspired Word of God - is that Mary had other children after the birth of Jesus, that would in no way violate the Law of Moses, nor the Prophets, nor the Psalms, nor any command given by Gabriel to Mary before she married Joseph, & before she conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Based on your statements, you are “elevating” Mary to a level beyond that she is described in Scripture. Mary having other children after the birth of Jesus would in no way violate a single word of Scripture, because that was required of the mother of the Messiah was for her to be a virgin while she was pregnant with Him & AT His birth (Isaiah 7:14), not “also” afterwards. And that is why Mary did (Matthew 1:25). So, I do respect Mary by not “admiring” her higher than she is described in Scripture. Please do not insult me. :mad:
So can you show us from Scripture where the Trinity is fully defined?
 
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