Why would Protestants quote the Church Fathers?

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myfavoritmartin said:
Clement of Rome
Clement, a first century Roman bishop, wrote that we’re saved through faith, apart from works. He excludes all works, even “works that we have done in holiness of heart” (First Clement, 32). Just after excluding works from the gospel, he goes on to encourage Christians to do those works he had just excluded. Thus, it can’t be argued that he was only excluding bad works, graceless works, faithless works, etc. He was excluding all works, including good works:
“And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen. What, then, shall we do, brethren? Shall we cease from well-doing, and abandon charity? May the Master never allow that this should happen to us! but let us rather with diligence and zeal hasten to fulfil every good work. For the Maker and Lord of all things rejoiceth in his works. By his supreme power he founded the heavens, and by his incomprehensible understanding he ordered them. The earth he separated from the water that surrounded it, and fixed it on the firm foundation of his own will. The animals which inhabit therein he commanded to be by his ordinance. Having made beforehand the sea and the animals that are therein, he shut them in by his own power. Man, the most excellent of all animals, infinite in faculty, he moulded with his holy and faultless hands, in the impress of his likeness. For thus saith God: Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness. And God made man. Male and female made he them. When, therefore, he had finished all things, he praised and blessed them, and said, Be fruitful, and multiply. Let us see, therefore, how all the just have been adorned with good works. Yea, the Lord himself rejoiced when he had adorned himself with his works. Having, therefore, this example, let us come in without shrinking to his will; let us work with all our strength the work of righteousness.” (32-33)

For a Roman bishop to advocate salvation through faith alone has devastating implications for Roman Catholicism. Thus, Roman Catholics have put forward various arguments in an attempt to prove that Clement didn’t advocate the doctrine.

IS this from the First or Second letter of Pope Clement? Never mind I see at the top now.
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myfavoritmartin said:
Clement of Rome
Clement, a first century Roman bishop, wrote that we’re saved through faith, apart from works. He excludes all works, even “works that we have done in holiness of heart” (First Clement, 32). Just after excluding works from the gospel, he goes on to encourage Christians to do those works he had just excluded. Thus, it can’t be argued that he was only excluding bad works, graceless works, faithless works, etc. He was excluding all works, including good works:
“And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen. What, then, shall we do, brethren? Shall we cease from well-doing, and abandon charity? May the Master never allow that this should happen to us! but let us rather with diligence and zeal hasten to fulfil every good work. For the Maker and Lord of all things rejoiceth in his works. By his supreme power he founded the heavens, and by his incomprehensible understanding he ordered them. The earth he separated from the water that surrounded it, and fixed it on the firm foundation of his own will. The animals which inhabit therein he commanded to be by his ordinance. Having made beforehand the sea and the animals that are therein, he shut them in by his own power. Man, the most excellent of all animals, infinite in faculty, he moulded with his holy and faultless hands, in the impress of his likeness. For thus saith God: Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness. And God made man. Male and female made he them. When, therefore, he had finished all things, he praised and blessed them, and said, Be fruitful, and multiply. Let us see, therefore, how all the just have been adorned with good works. Yea, the Lord himself rejoiced when he had adorned himself with his works. Having, therefore, this example, let us come in without shrinking to his will; let us work with all our strength the work of righteousness.” (32-33)

For a Roman bishop to advocate salvation through faith alone has devastating implications for Roman Catholicism. Thus, Roman Catholics have put forward various arguments in an attempt to prove that Clement didn’t advocate the doctrine.

Looking at paragraph 32 of Pope Clements first letter. He is speaking to and about the Jews and is speaking about the Jewish works of the “Law”. the Law of Moses. The Catholic Church today teaches clearly that no one can Earn their way to salvation by their own works. Clement is restating what St. Paul said.
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I believe that Protestants quote the Church Fathers for one of several related reasons.

First, I believe that many have come to a realization that tracing their lineage back to “only” the 16th century puts them at an awkward disadvantage when they dialogue with members of more ancient churches (Catholic and Orthodox, for example).

Second, without a link to the Apostles, they have no direct, concrete link to Jesus who founded the Church. This, too, is awkward.

Third, I think it has dawned on some Protestants that the divisions between denominations are a result from a lack of authentic Apostolic Authority. There is no place in Protestantism where it can be said, “The Buck Stops Here.”

Finally, some Protestants search the ECF’s to find positions that contradict what the Church teaches and which support their own ideas. For Catholics, this is no problem since the existence of these writings merely indicates that the Church carefully considered alternate views on various issues before moving forward with the correct teaching.

But it does make for some uncomfortable moments when a Protestant springs his favorite “Father Knows Best” quotation on an unsuspecting Catholic who has not skimmed their writings looking for “spoof texts”.
 
Randy_Carson said:
without a link to the Apostles, they **have no direct, concrete link to Jesus **who founded the Church. This, too, is awkward.
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Your calling the link Christ promised us awkward?
Are you familiar with the Holy Ghost?
We are.
 
What Clement says is what the Catholic Church has always taught on justification. For Catholics, justification - or when we first become righteous - means the forgiveness of sins and becoming a new creation in Christ. We can never merit the forgiveness of sins because that would mean we could pay off the eternal debt of sin. Being a finite and sinfulf being, a human can never pay the price of his own sins and thus become righteous before God. That is why God had to intervene by sending His Son to redeem us. So works play no role in making us righteous before God.

However, being justified comes with an obligation to live a life of obedience to God expressed in good works. If, empowered by the Holy Spirit, we fulfill this obligation, we will - as Clement states - be reckoned among the saved. If not, then we received the “grace of God in vain” (2 Corinthians 6:1) and will not enjoy final salvation. (glorification).

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
We are most certainly familiar with the Holy Spirit and His Temple is the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
Michael
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Thats not what scripture tells us! scripture explains that we are the temple for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Thats not what scripture tells us! scripture explains that we are the temple for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
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1 cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
1 cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
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Please note that the “You” is plural. We, as individuals, are temples of the holy Spirit. However, the Bible descibes the Church as a whole as the Temple of the Holy Spirit as well ( Ephesians 2:19-22).

God Bless,
Michael
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Most of my Born again Christian brothers. 👍 :cool:
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So you must have friends older than Methuselah. So can you ask them a couple of questions for me? How tall was Jesus? Did he have a good sense of humor? Didn’t the other apostles smell a rat in Judas? Since they knew Jesus personally, can they go on the History Channel and personally debunk that Davinci Code garbage?

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
Please note that the “You” is plural. We, as individuals, are temples of the holy Spirit. However, the Bible descibes the Church as a whole as the Temple of the Holy Spirit as well ( Ephesians 2:19-22).

God Bless,
Michael
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verse 22 says it all…
22In whom **ye also are builded together **for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

There is the church. (my definition not yours)
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Most of my Born again Christian brothers. 👍 :cool:
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I figured you would say this…hoped you would, actually.

So, tell me, MFM: which of the following doctrines do ALL of your born-again brothers believe?1. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary (Luther taught this)
  1. The Assumption of Mary (Luther taught this)
  2. Infant Baptism (Luther taught this)
  3. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Luther taught this)
  4. Baptismal regeneration
  5. The pre-tribulation rapture of the Church
  6. Ordination of women and/or gays
    Some of your “born again Christian brothers” will believe one thing while others will take the opposite position.
Since you claim that you are ALL discipled by Christ, am I to assume that Jesus is teaching contradictory things or that some of you are not really paying attention to what he says? Or should we conclude that only those who ageee with you on each and every doctrine are truly “born again”? :dancing:
 
Church, myfavoritemartin, refers to the community of Christians. And this community is organized and has a teaching authority (Acts 15:2-30, 16:4, Ephesians 4:10-16).

God Bless,
Michael
 
Randy_Carson said:
I figured you would say this…hoped you would, actually.

So, tell me, MFM: which of the following doctrines do ALL of your born-again brothers believe?
  1. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary (Luther taught this)
  2. The Assumption of Mary (Luther taught this)
  3. Infant Baptism (Luther taught this)
  4. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Luther taught this)
  5. Baptismal regeneration
  6. The pre-tribulation rapture of the Church
  7. Ordination of women and/or gays
Some of your “born again Christian brothers” will believe one thing while others will take the opposite position.

Since you claim that you are ALL discipled by Christ, am I to assume that Jesus is teaching contradictory things or that some of you are not really paying attention to what he says? :dancing:
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You claim that you have an infallible church which gives you unity but yet you guys seem to have as much disunity as you claim we do.

a.) does the Bible contain errors?
b.) can non-Catholics be saved?
c.) is the old covenant salvific for the Jews?
d.) does limbo exist or not?
e.) should you guys witness to the Jews or not?
f.) how many and which statements from your church are infallible?

I could go on but you guys aren’t very unified.
 
Randy_Carson said:
So, tell me, MFM: which of the following doctrines do ALL of your born-again brothers believe?
40.png
Randy_Carson:
  1. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary (Luther taught this)
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Nope, not clearly indicated in scripture.
Randy_Carson said:
  1. The Assumption of Mary (Luther taught this)
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Nope, not clearly indicated in scripture.
Randy_Carson said:
  1. Infant Baptism (Luther taught this)
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Ditto
Randy_Carson said:
  1. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Luther taught this)
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ditto
Randy_Carson said:
  1. Baptismal regeneration
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ditto
Randy_Carson said:
  1. The pre-tribulation rapture of the Church
  2. Ordination of women and/or gays
    Some of your “born again Christian brothers” will believe one thing while others will take the opposite position.
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Nope and Nope
Randy_Carson said:
Since you claim that you are ALL discipled by Christ, am I to assume that Jesus is teaching contradictory things or that some of you are not really paying attention to what he says? Or should we conclude that only those who ageee with you on each and every doctrine are truly “born again”? :dancing:
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Jesus is never contradictory only our understanding of his teaching.
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To get to the OP.
Because they are catholic not Roman Catholic…
 
myfavoritmartin said:
So, tell me, MFM: which of the following doctrines do ALL of your born-again brothers believe?
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You ignored my real question, and you ducked it because you do not have an adequate response.

Some of your “sola scriptura, sola fide” brethren hold one or more of these doctrines, and I never even mentioned infant baptism, OSAS and many other doctrines.

Why, Marty, are there so many doctrinal differences among those who are “all” disciples of the same teacher?

Is He really THAT unclear? Or are some having difficulty hearing from Him clearly?

How can two men of God using the Bible Alone as their “sole infallible rule of faith” come to such contradictory positions on all these doctrines? After all, each of them seeks to follow the advice of Paul who tell us to “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Tim 2:15)

Are some “wrongly dividing” that Word?
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Reformed1 said:
You claim that you have an infallible church which gives you unity but yet you guys seem to have as much disunity as you claim we do.

a.) does the Bible contain errors?
b.) can non-Catholics be saved?
c.) is the old covenant salvific for the Jews?
d.) does limbo exist or not?
e.) should you guys witness to the Jews or not?
f.) how many and which statements from your church are infallible?

I could go on but you guys aren’t very unified.
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The teachings of the Catholic Church are found in the Catechism. These are the teachings all Catholics must believe. The disunity among Protestants cannot be compared to the dissent found among Catholics. Protestants cannot even agree on what salvation means. Is it predestination (Calvinist) or free will (Arminian)? Is baptism necessary for salvation (Lutheran Church, Church of Christ) or not (Baptists)? Is speaking in tongues a sign that you are saved (Pentecostal) or a sign that you are of the devil (fundamentalist Baptist)? Is it eternal security (Baptists) or not (Pentecostals)?

God Bless,
Michael
 
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