Why would you not believe in the Communion of Saints?

[stbruderklaus]

As a peculiar expression of this topic, I’d be curious to hear some reasoned opinions regarding appearances and messages of our Blessed Mother.

Certainly a special position is given to Mary in the Communion of the Saints… but she has seemed to have a unique activity with her appearances and utterances, especially in the last couple hundred years. Could this be due to her universal maternity to all the faithful (something unique to her, not shared by any other saint)?

Any thoughts on this?

Peace.

 

[ralphinal]

As a peculiar expression of this topic, I’d be curious to hear some reasoned opinions regarding appearances and messages of our Blessed Mother.

Certainly a special position is given to Mary in the Communion of the Saints… but she has seemed to have a unique activity with her appearances and utterances, especially in the last couple hundred years. Could this be due to her universal maternity to all the faithful (something unique to her, not shared by any other saint)?

Any thoughts on this?

Peace.

That is as good a reason as any.

I also like to think that this world has shifted its focus away from Jesus more and more over the last 300 years. It seems to me to make sense that any saint could help, but why not use the one that was the best example of being a follower of Christ? Why not use the one that we can most identify with: a mother… We all had mothers, and for most of us we love them

 

[stbruderklaus]

I think you have a good point there.

Sometimes I wonder, if our Blessed Mother looks down on her squabbling children, and want to take a wooden spoon to us. I’ve found myself waiting a message along the lines of,

“Allright-- knock it off. Here’s where you Lutherans are hosed up, and here’s where you Romans are hosed up… shake hands, and get united, because the darkness is growing and needs a united Christian witness…”

I bet that would get a lot of people’s attention…

Cheers–

 

[ralphinal]

I think you have a good point there.

Sometimes I wonder, if our Blessed Mother looks down on her squabbling children, and want to take a wooden spoon to us. I’ve found myself waiting a message along the lines of,

“Allright-- knock it off. Here’s where you Lutherans are hosed up, and here’s where you Romans are hosed up… shake hands, and get united, because the darkness is growing and needs a united Christian witness…”

I bet that would get a lot of people’s attention…

Cheers–

SHe might, but her son does not want that.

He wants us to choose to follow him in the correct way. Each of us must be lead down the path by our cooperation with the Holy SPirit on our own.

Mary, being a mother, would gladly lead us by our hand

 

[stbruderklaus]

I’m not so sure that either Mary or Christ is always that subtle… there are plenty of stories of one or both of them thumping individuals on the forehead and sending them in the right direction.

Part of my general struggle with the Christian experience in the US, is that we’ve inherited a very diverse slew of Christian expressions. That leaves a lot of Christians absolutely convinced of their particular tradition’s accuracy or fidelity… and I can’t help but think it would help to have our Mother weigh in and provide a bit of guidance to her fueding children. As a Lutheran, I’d sure appreciate it… either corporately or individually.

Of course, a direct message that condemned particular teachings or practices of either Roman or non-Roman Christian expressions, might not be received well by either of those traditions’ leaders. Perhaps the coming of such a message from our Mother would be predicated on the penetent spirit within the world’s Christian communions, that would be willing to receive a message of correction as well as encouragement.

Hmmm…

 

[ralphinal]

I’m not so sure that either Mary or Christ is always that subtle… there are plenty of stories of one or both of them thumping individuals on the forehead and sending them in the right direction.

Part of my general struggle with the Christian experience in the US, is that we’ve inherited a very diverse slew of Christian expressions. That leaves a lot of Christians absolutely convinced of their particular tradition’s accuracy or fidelity… and I can’t help but think it would help to have our Mother weigh in and provide a bit of guidance to her fueding children. As a Lutheran, I’d sure appreciate it… either corporately or individually.

Of course, a direct message that condemned particular teachings or practices of either Roman or non-Roman Christian expressions, might not be received well by either of those traditions’ leaders. Perhaps the coming of such a message from our Mother would be predicated on the penetent spirit within the world’s Christian communions, that would be willing to receive a message of correction as well as encouragement.

Hmmm…

I know people who had the “hit by a 2 x 4 conversion” but they all had been getting messages before, once they looked back. It is just that the sin had a better hold.

I know what you mean about the rest.

However, what if what we think is right is wrong but not as wrong? FOr example, we are very close together on things like the REal Presence.

 

[stbruderklaus]

Perhaps those of us who hail of Germanic stock, have a latent desire to be clobbered into correction.

In my understanding of Lutheran confessional theology, and Roman catechetical theology (as represented in the CCC) I tend to think that an honest and historic Lutheran is closer in bonds to their Roman and Anglo-Catholic brethren than any other Christian communion. Of course, my Lutheran friends who have been influenced by more radical apsects of the Reformation, might differ.

Heck, when I was stationed in Italy years ago, I worshipped in a Roman parish… it was the only gathering of Christians in town. I refrained from the Eucharist just out of conscience, but since then, my sense of unity with Rome has only grown.

Ah, well… perhaps I’m asking too much of heavenly counsel. All I can say, is that if I were thumped by my Mother or her Son and given an improved understanding of Christian truth, I’d be the biggest evangelist for that message I could imagine… even if that meant the reconcilliation of Lutherans to Rome.

Cheers.

 

[ThinPlace]

I also like to think that this world has shifted its focus away from Jesus more and more over the last 300 years.

I really do believe in the communion of saints, but I’m appalled at the notion of devotion to Jesus waning in favor of devotion to any saint. Jesus said that He is the way the truth and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father except by him. Saints are not my saviors, but my elder brothers who have gone before me. Only Jesus is my savior, and the core of my devotion should belong to him. Being called up into communion with the saints means, for me, that I am compelled to live my life with the awareness that I have a cloud of witnesses observing me, and I had better behave responsibly. I live my life “in plain view of eternity”. Of course, I also believe that my elder brothers watch out for me and intercede for me, but I don’t think for a moment that they cajole the Father into doing things on my behalf that He was not already inclined to do. It’s not that I’ve somehow missed the Divine gaze and fallen through the cracks, and the saints are correcting the Father’s oversight. I choose to embrace the saints and enjoy them for their rightful place and role, and keep my eyes and heart on the true Author and Perfector of my faith.

 

[ralphinal]

I really do believe in the communion of saints, but I’m appalled at the notion of devotion to Jesus waning in favor of devotion to any saint. Jesus said that He is the way the truth and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father except by him. Saints are not my saviors, but my elder brothers who have gone before me. Only Jesus is my savior, and the core of my devotion should belong to him. Being called up into communion with the saints means, for me, that I am compelled to live my life with the awareness that I have a cloud of witnesses observing me, and I had better behave responsibly. I live my life “in plain view of eternity”. Of course, I also believe that my elder brothers watch out for me and intercede for me, but I don’t think for a moment that they cajole the Father into doing things on my behalf that He was not already inclined to do. It’s not that I’ve somehow missed the Divine gaze and fallen through the cracks, and the saints are correcting the Father’s oversight. I choose to embrace the saints and enjoy them for their rightful place and role, and keep my eyes and heart on the true Author and Perfector of my faith.

You misread what I said. I do not mean to imply that the world is shifting from Jesus to saints. I mean that the world is shifting from Jesus to whatever it is in the world that we like better. We are losing people to the sins of the world, the flesh, and the devil every day.

 

[ThinPlace]

You’re right: I misread. My apologies.

 

[ralphinal]

You’re right: I misread. My apologies.

Not an issue. I was not as clear as I should have been.

 

[SIA]

Ours used to be easier, until the Church realised that Italians would cannonize anyone who did not die in prison. Even the ones who did were considered.

I haven’t laughed that hard in days.

 

[ThinPlace]

Th(name removed by moderator)lace,

Welcome to the Forums!

.

I believe that, when we die, our souls go into the “time” that is God’s. So the “dead” souls can see all of our life at once. They can also see all of the other lives at once - or perhaps, only the lives of those who pray to them for intercession. (Jon, I think your carrying of the card was an unconscious prayer.)

I hope this helps you.

,

Ruthie

Thanks Ruthie, I do feel welcome. I think I responded to this thread because it’s an issue I struggle with. I’m a middle-aged man attending Catholic adult confirmation classes. I know that confirmation is the right path for me, but I still have to deal with my native protestant notions. This just happens to be one of them. Every Sunday I affirm that I believe in the Communion of the Saints, and in my heart that’s true. But I find that I believe it intuitively, because it ‘seems’ right, and I’m still searching for philosophical underpinnings that I’m comfortable with. Intuition will serve temporarily though.
I am familiar with Lewis’ “line on paper” analogy, and you’re right: that does help.
My user name Th(name removed by moderator)lace, is taken from an early sacramental understanding of how nature and supernature interact. The early Christian Celts believed that there was generally a thick layer of insulation that kept the two worlds apart, but it was thin in places, and in those places the Supernatural intersected with nature and was accessible through nature. So bread and wine are thin places, and the human brain is a thin place. I believe that the insulation between living and dead saints is also very thin, at least to them.
I’m comfortable with this doctrine expressed in mystical terms, and I may ultimately have to settle for that. But in the mean time I’m still searching for a satisfying intellectual understanding. Reading suggestions gratefully accepted. BTW, I’m converting to Catholicism largely from the influence of GK Chesteron and Thomas Merton. Chesterton’s ‘Orthodoxy’ stood me on my ear, and I’ll reread his section on the Democracy of the Dead (communion of the saints)

Steve

 

[stbruderklaus]

Your story sounds fascinating. I plan on giving Chesterton a read sometime next year (my reading list is fairly packed until next Summer.)

Issues such as these were tough for me, too. Growing up a Baptist, my search for historical Christianity landed me in Wittenburg. Our Lutheran confessions, however, are a bit anemic on some of these points… and yet the experience of the ancient Church has continually testified to such mysteries that may only be insinuated in Scripture but found very real in the life of Christians (i.e., the Great Tradition.)

Grace and peace to you on your journey.

Brad

 

[NDfan]

Pretty straight forward question. Catholics believe in it, us Anglicans do as well and staunchly might I add. How can you not believe in the unbroken chain of Christ’s followers and faithful past, present and future? I am curious to hear from those who do not believe this way and would like to know what precisely they do believe in regards to what happens after this life.

SIA I’ll throw in my 2 cents on this issue. I do believe in the Communion of Saints but I don’t subscribe to certain aspects of the teaching. Scripture tells us that all followers of Christ are saints. There is no such thing as an individual person being given a title of Saint John Doe or whatever their name is. This is not supported at all in early church history.

I believe all saints are with GOD in Heaven after they die. But I also believe that the followers of Christ still alive in this world are saints. I’d like to believe that if GOD gives the ability for our loved ones that have passed on from this life to the next to pray to HIM then they certainly are and do in whatever time factor that Heaven is defined in. Actually Revelation references the prayers of the saints being delivered to GOD but again saints in scripture are defined as all followers of Christ.

Further I don’t subscribe to the notion of one saint being in charge per se of praying for cancer patients or people that are traveling etc. This practice is deeply rooted in paganism. If you recall the pagans ascribe a type of godly status to certain people whom they believe have performed miracles or certain acts that would be equated to a deity status. As pagans converted to Christianity they began to assign these same titles to people they believed had some type of deity status under the umbrella of Christianity. Typically a church would be erected over the grave of this individual and pieces of their clothing or bone fragments from their body or any other earthly possesions that came into contact with them would be saved because special powers would be associated with them. What we commonly refer to now as relics. It was also common practice to pray to that individual because it was believed they still retained their deity status in the next life with GOD or were capable of influencing GOD on their behalf. Whether anyone agrees with this or not this is ultimately how asking saints for intercessory prayers was started. If you ever visit Rome and go to the outskirts of the smaller towns you will see people who literally hang relics outside of their house as if the object itself contained special powers.

I’m quite sure that if our deceased loved ones can pray to GOD in Heaven as referenced in Revelation then they certainly are. But the bottom line is scripture never tells us what actually happens to you at the point of death. All we really know from Christ is that eternal life is promised to those who believe in HIM.

PEACE and Blessings to you

 

[stbruderklaus]

NDFan,

Just a couple thoughts. First, I think we have an obligation to examine the Roman teaching in its best possible light (cf. Luther’s exposition of the 8th Commandment.) To be sure, there may be worse expressions of Roman teaching… but that’s not the most effective way of dialgue. I’ll bet a case of good beer that you’d have a hard time finding a Roman Catholic who understands the communion of the saints as pagan.

At its best, the Roman understanding leans on the notion that particular saints of God who suffered in this life (i.e., carried particular crosses, or were focussed on particular ministries) carried those passions into the Church Triumphant. Combined with the understanding that the Saints in Light are conscious and interested and intimately connected with the Church on earth, prayers to the saints amount to a request that particularly holy men and women of past ages pray for us in our current trials.

To this, my Lutheran mind says… “well, it’s certainly possible.” The Confessions do not preclude the possibility of this activity above, but note that there is no clear witness of Scripture-- no clear promise of God-- attached to praying for the intercession of the saints. To my mind, as long as it does not detract from or obscure the merits of Christ, it becomes a matter of personal piety. Could it be abused? You bet. Does it have a long and substantiated history in the Church, bolstered by Ecumenical Council? Yep.

From what I’ve seen and experienced and studied, I think the Saints and Angels are much more active in the Communion of the Saints than Protestants are willing to consider. We should always be careful not to overly constrain our perception of what God is willing and able to do… especially when the witness of countless millions of Christians attest to it.

Peace.

 

[ThinPlace]

NDFan,

Just a couple thoughts. First, I think we have an obligation to examine the Roman teaching in its best possible light (cf. Luther’s exposition of the 8th Commandment.) To be sure, there may be worse expressions of Roman teaching… but that’s not the most effective way of dialgue. I’ll bet a case of good beer that you’d have a hard time finding a Roman Catholic who understands the communion of the saints as pagan.

From what I’ve seen and experienced and studied, I think the Saints and Angels are much more active in the Communion of the Saints than Protestants are willing to consider. We should always be careful not to overly constrain our perception of what God is willing and able to do… especially when the witness of countless millions of Christians attest to it.

Peace.

Dear Lutheran bro,
What a gracious and thoughtful post. Thank you for your sanity and charity. My own response to such straw man arguments is usually a bit more impassioned. You’ve set a high standard for responding to, er, extreme positions. And I can think of much better uses for a good case of beer. You sound like the kind of guy I’d like to have one or two with.

 

[389670]

SIA,
I would bet that if you polled enough non-Catholics who do not accept this doctrine, there would be three main reasons given.

First, they have never been taught it.

Second, it is too Catholic.

Third, it is not important to salvation.

It is Biblical, it was part of the Jewish Tradition, and even if you do not ask their intercession, it does not change the chain linking us together.

How do you know if a saint you pray to can really hear you?

 

[JonNC]

How do you know if a saint you pray to can really hear you?

As A Lutheran, I’d say perhaps we don’t, but certainly God hears the calls for intercession from the countless millions of Catholics and Orthodox who ask for saintly intercession. I suspect He understands them.

Jon

 

[JLSamuel818]

How do you know if a saint you pray to can really hear you?

Before a Saint can even be a Saint in the Church. The person must go to trial. There, the person’s life is reviewed and looked throughly carefully.

The person must have performed three authentic miracles after death.

Obviously if in the Catholic Church you are a “Saint”. Then they can hear you because if not, then the three authentic miracles would not have happened, and the Church would not have canonized them.