Why wouldn't any of the authors of the New Testement mention anything about praying to ot venerating Mary?

[jcrichton]

Abraham believed and his faith was tested, so why not Jesus’ mother?

…again, Jesus’ mother Knew that Jesus was Divine; there were only three people in the world that got that Knowledge from God Himself: the Virgin Mary, St. Joseph, her husband, and John the Baptist–even Elizabeth only got to know that Jesus was God through secondhand Revelation (John, in her womb, filled with the Holy Spirit, recognized that the Lord of Heaven and earth was in his presence and he jumped for joy and infused the knowledge into his mom… hence, it follows that Jesus did not need to test Mary’s Faith or resolve to abide in Him or by him; interestingly enough, you seem to ignore that Jesus would not have “performed” any miracles prior to this very first one… so Mary could only have asked of Him what she knew only He, as God, could do: provide for the need of man through Giving of Himself!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I haven’t read the entire thread, so please excuse me if this has already been discussed.

I see here an underlying assumption that, in order for a practice to be licit, it must be written about in the Bible. I’ve read the entire Bible 5 times (okay, I skipped the begats and other repetition, but you get the idea), and I didn’t come across anything that referred to the idea that in order for a practice to be licit, it must be written about in the Bible.

This sounds quite a bit like an argument from silence. “An argument from silence is an informal fallacy that occurs when someone interprets someone’s or something’s silence as anything other than silence, typically claiming that the silence was in fact communicating agreement or disagreement.” Source: rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence

Hi, Kay!
…and what is even more interesting is that Scriptures speak of things that are not fully Revealed but nonetheless important to the Body of Christ through various passages where Doctrinal matters are discussed only in mention (without detailed narrative); yet, the early Church, with the Inspiration and Guidance of the Holy Spirit, managed to unfold and expand on Christ’s Revelation and the Teaching of the Apostles (something that can be seen even from Scriptures as we find various important changes and doctrinal and hierarchal definitions and practices).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

…again, Jesus’ mother Knew that Jesus was Divine; there were only three people in the world that got that Knowledge from God Himself: the Virgin Mary, St. Joseph, her husband, and John the Baptist–even Elizabeth only got to know that Jesus was God through secondhand Revelation (John, in her womb, filled with the Holy Spirit, recognized that the Lord of Heaven and earth was in his presence and he jumped for joy and infused the knowledge into his mom… hence, it follows that Jesus did not need to test Mary’s Faith or resolve to abide in Him or by him; interestingly enough, you seem to ignore that Jesus would not have “performed” any miracles prior to this very first one… so Mary could only have asked of Him what she knew only He, as God, could do: provide for the need of man through Giving of Himself!

Maran atha!

Angel

There were many things Mary didn’t get at that time. Although she knew who Jesus was, she was still human. I’m pretty sure God knew the extent of Abraham’s faith yet He still tested him. So by your logic, God didn’t need to test Abraham?

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I think that that’s part of the problem. The Virgin Mary and the Communion of the Saints have been a target of the persecution of the Church (many clerics and laity have been put to death because of Church Doctrine–can you imagine killing a pre-teen because he/she would carry an icon or held the Eucharist as Sacred, or called the Virgin mother?); the Church may have reacted with too an extreme Love for Mary–but, would you have the Church discard the mother of God as most non-Catholic Christians have done?

Maran atha!

Angel

I wouldn’t discard Mary. I wouldn’t put her on a Godlike level like some of my brethren have done in the past.

 

[Freeway_Joe]

I appreciate the good info given about the Book of Revelation that seems to be describing Mary. I wasn’t sure about the verse that says the Woman cried out in pain during childbirth. One of our Priests told us that Mary did not have any pain during child birth because she had no original sin and therefore didn’t suffer the curse of pain bringing forth a baby. What is the Catholic teaching regarding Mary’s pain as described in Revelation? I’m very pleased to be learning so much about Mary thanks to all the great answers you wonderful folks have been posting. Gracias!

 

[jcrichton]

There were many things Mary didn’t get at that time. Although she knew who Jesus was, she was still human. I’m pretty sure God knew the extent of Abraham’s faith yet He still tested him. So by your logic, God didn’t need to test Abraham?

…again, Abraham’s Faith was tested for a purpose (type for God’s Sacrifice of His Own Son for man). Yet, your proposition that Jesus was testing the Virgin’s Faith is devoid of reason; specially when Scriptures testify that Mary actually asked people to do whatever her Son commanded–this undoubtedly demonstrates that the mom knew exactly the capabilities of her Son… unless you are intimating (as several movies have portrayed) that Jesus went about performing miraculous deeds throughout His private life (thought this would give foundation to Mary’s confidence it would also contradict Scriptures when it states that the event was Jesus’ first miracle).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I wouldn’t discard Mary. I wouldn’t put her on a Godlike level like some of my brethren have done in the past.

I truly do not know what you mean–to me, St. Mary has always been the mother of God, and, as all Believers, co-heir with Christ (which would also include the responsibilities, as attested by Christ, to love others to the death–which of itself would incur working for the Salvation of others).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

…again, Abraham’s Faith was tested for a purpose (type for God’s Sacrifice of His Own Son for man). Yet, your proposition that Jesus was testing the Virgin’s Faith is devoid of reason; specially when Scriptures testify that Mary actually asked people to do whatever her Son commanded–this undoubtedly demonstrates that the mom knew exactly the capabilities of her Son… unless you are intimating (as several movies have portrayed) that Jesus went about performing miraculous deeds throughout His private life (thought this would give foundation to Mary’s confidence it would also contradict Scriptures when it states that the event was Jesus’ first miracle).

Maran atha!

Angel

No I am not. Jesus knew the extent of the faith of His mother. When she said, “Do whatever He tells you,” she passed the test.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I truly do not know what you mean–to me, St. Mary has always been the mother of God, and, as all Believers, co-heir with Christ (which would also include the responsibilities, as attested by Christ, to love others to the death–which of itself would incur working for the Salvation of others).

Maran atha!

Angel

Really? You know what I am talking about.

 

[Bookcat]

Our Lady herself in the pages of the New Testament said all generations will call me blessed…

But as to why no examples of praying to Mary - well cause she was on earth with the authors for most of the time of their writing…not yet in heaven…

 

[jcrichton]

Really? You know what I am talking about.

…we all reason from our own understanding… I cannot convince to let go of the issue of Jesus testing His mother because that’s where you feel comfortable… but, you cannot ascertain my thought on any issue by using generalizations as the principle that must guide my thought. (“You know what I mean,” used to be followed by a question mark precisely because every mind does not think alike.)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

…we all reason from our own understanding… I cannot convince to let go of the issue of Jesus testing His mother because that’s where you feel comfortable… but, you cannot ascertain my thought on any issue by using generalizations as the principle that must guide my thought. (“You know what I mean,” used to be followed by a question mark precisely because every mind does not think alike.)

Maran atha!

Angel

Seriously. There are some Catholics who put Mary on a God level.

 

[jcrichton]

Seriously. There are some Catholics who put Mary on a God level.

I have not met them… Mom was very devote to the Virgin… but she always taught of her as the Mother of God to demonstrate that Jesus, the Word Incarnate, never ceased being God–the Virgin Mary, she would say to me, is the daughter of the Father, mother of the Son, and spouse of the Holy Spirit–God’s humble maiden.

From my childhood I’ve known the Virgin Mary as my Heavenly mother, not my Mom, but my spiritual mother–never as an equal or lesser Divine Person of God.

I cannot recall meeting a single Catholic that have ever thought of St. Mary (or any other Saint, for that matter) as anything more than an agent of God–the Communion of the Saints.

If there are Catholics who hold any such belief, I can honestly tell them that they are wrong on two accounts: 1) it is not Divine Revelation and 2) the Church does not Teach Divinity outside of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I have not met them… Mom was very devote to the Virgin… but she always taught of her as the Mother of God to demonstrate that Jesus, the Word Incarnate, never ceased being God–the Virgin Mary, she would say to me, is the daughter of the Father, mother of the Son, and spouse of the Holy Spirit–God’s humble maiden.

From my childhood I’ve known the Virgin Mary as my Heavenly mother, not my Mom, but my spiritual mother–never as an equal or lesser Divine Person of God.

I cannot recall meeting a single Catholic that have ever thought of St. Mary (or any other Saint, for that matter) as anything more than an agent of God–the Communion of the Saints.

If there are Catholics who hold any such belief, I can honestly tell them that they are wrong on two accounts: 1) it is not Divine Revelation and 2) the Church does not Teach Divinity outside of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Maran atha!

Angel

Apparently there are some Catholics who believe that God is vengeful while Mary is merciful.

Good for you. Someday, when my end has come, Jesus may rightfully say, “TP, you are a worm and have been a sinner all your life, so off to hell with you.” But, perhaps Mary will come to my defense saying, “Son, please have mercy on this one; he is my child.” Who will be my savior then?

See what I mean?

 

[JMM1957]

Apparently there are some Catholics who believe that God is vengeful while Mary is merciful.

See what I mean?

No question about it, there are some Catholics out there who don’t understand their faith properly and may look at Mary as equal to Jesus in our redemption, but how does their ignorance change the truth about what the Church actually teaches? Every Christian church regardless of denomination has members who don’t know their particular church’s teachings properly, right? You are always going to have some of those people in church.

 

[jcrichton]

Apparently there are some Catholics who believe that God is vengeful while Mary is merciful.

See what I mean?

Wow… it does seems like that… perhaps the poster did not offer a good analogy–though I believe that he was attempting to demonstrate that through Christ’s dispensation of Justice he may fall short of Salvation but through his devotion to Mary she may intercede on his behalf just before Christ’s Judgment is passed and Christ may be moved by Mary’s supplication… though, I can see how contrasting one with the other may seem like placing Mary at equals with if not above God’s Mercy/Justice.

I would call on the poster to expand on his analogy since it does seems faulty.

God Bless!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Mintaka]

Using that analogy, obviously Jesus and St. Paul thought that the Father is vengeful and the Holy Spirit is merciful.

Why?

Because Jesus says that He’s sending the Holy Spirit to be our advocate, and St. Paul says that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us in groans too deep for words. Neither of them said that the Father was going to do anything like that, so obviously they were dismissing the First Person of the Trinity.

Sigh.

And yes, it is routine in ancient Christian art and sermons to picture Jesus as the Righteous Judge, and to picture the Holy Spirit as the Advocate of Sinners. The idea is not that Jesus is mean. The idea is that God is both just and merciful.

The alternate way to portray this many-sided more-than-fairness of God is to picture the saints as our advocates, or even to picture the saints or patriarchs as our just accusers, but Jesus letting people into Heaven anyway.

These are not supposed to be some kind of exquisitely balanced theological lecture. They’re supposed to be encouragement to sinners.

But of course, we do know from the Bible that the saints will act as judges of angels, and that the Apostles will sit judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel. And we do know that God apparently likes to give humans a role in all His divine works – not because He needs to, but because He likes to let His adopted sons and daughters have responsibilities, too.

We also know that God did lessen His punishments on Israel, in Jeremiah’s time, with reference to the weeping of Rachel being heard and rewarded. Obviously God didn’t need Rachel to tell Him that Israel needed help; but He chose to include her.

So the stories are not necessarily all that far off from what will happen at Judgment.

 

[jcrichton]

Using that analogy, obviously Jesus and St. Paul thought that the Father is vengeful and the Holy Spirit is merciful.

Why?

Because Jesus says that He’s sending the Holy Spirit to be our advocate, and St. Paul says that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us in groans too deep for words. Neither of them said that the Father was going to do anything like that, so obviously they were dismissing the First Person of the Trinity.

Sigh.

And yes, it is routine in ancient Christian art and sermons to picture Jesus as the Righteous Judge, and to picture the Holy Spirit as the Advocate of Sinners. The idea is not that Jesus is mean. The idea is that God is both just and merciful.

The alternate way to portray this many-sided more-than-fairness of God is to picture the saints as our advocates, or even to picture the saints or patriarchs as our just accusers, but Jesus letting people into Heaven anyway.

These are not supposed to be some kind of exquisitely balanced theological lecture. They’re supposed to be encouragement to sinners.

But of course, we do know from the Bible that the saints will act as judges of angels, and that the Apostles will sit judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel. And we do know that God apparently likes to give humans a role in all His divine works – not because He needs to, but because He likes to let His adopted sons and daughters have responsibilities, too.

We also know that God did lessen His punishments on Israel, in Jeremiah’s time, with reference to the weeping of Rachel being heard and rewarded. Obviously God didn’t need Rachel to tell Him that Israel needed help; but He chose to include her.

So the stories are not necessarily all that far off from what will happen at Judgment.

What I truly find interesting in all of this is that Believers actually look to find a difference in God; as though there is in deed an Old Testament God and a New Testament God or a Merciful God and a vindictive unmerciful God (buying into hollowood’s spiritualism).

God’s Wrath (Justice) is Tempered by His Mercy–both are of extraordinary proportions (immeasurable); yet, God’s Mercy is beyond our capacity to sin so we will always be Granted His Mercy beyond our ability to exhaust it (God has no bounds); hence, it is only our perception of God that places Him at odds with us: vindictive Father (God).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Wow… it does seems like that… perhaps the poster did not offer a good analogy–though I believe that he was attempting to demonstrate that through Christ’s dispensation of Justice he may fall short of Salvation but through his devotion to Mary she may intercede on his behalf just before Christ’s Judgment is passed and Christ may be moved by Mary’s supplication… though, I can see how contrasting one with the other may seem like placing Mary at equals with if not above God’s Mercy/Justice.

I would call on the poster to expand on his analogy since it does seems faulty.

God Bless!

Maran atha!

Angel

Exactly!

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Using that analogy, obviously Jesus and St. Paul thought that the Father is vengeful and the Holy Spirit is merciful.

Why?

Because Jesus says that He’s sending the Holy Spirit to be our advocate, and St. Paul says that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us in groans too deep for words. Neither of them said that the Father was going to do anything like that, so obviously they were dismissing the First Person of the Trinity.

Sigh.

And yes, it is routine in ancient Christian art and sermons to picture Jesus as the Righteous Judge, and to picture the Holy Spirit as the Advocate of Sinners. The idea is not that Jesus is mean. The idea is that God is both just and merciful.

The alternate way to portray this many-sided more-than-fairness of God is to picture the saints as our advocates, or even to picture the saints or patriarchs as our just accusers, but Jesus letting people into Heaven anyway.

These are not supposed to be some kind of exquisitely balanced theological lecture. They’re supposed to be encouragement to sinners.

But of course, we do know from the Bible that the saints will act as judges of angels, and that the Apostles will sit judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel. And we do know that God apparently likes to give humans a role in all His divine works – not because He needs to, but because He likes to let His adopted sons and daughters have responsibilities, too.

We also know that God did lessen His punishments on Israel, in Jeremiah’s time, with reference to the weeping of Rachel being heard and rewarded. Obviously God didn’t need Rachel to tell Him that Israel needed help; but He chose to include her.

So the stories are not necessarily all that far off from what will happen at Judgment.

There will be NO mercy on Judgement Day.