Why you should think that the Natural-Evolution of species is true

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Edgar said:
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Bradskii:
It’s not random.
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Sorry, but it is random, because the outcome of the process of evolution is ultimately determined by environmental conditions, which are random.
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How can you argue against something which you don’t understand?

‘At the opposite end of the scale, natural selection is sometimes interpreted as a random process. This is also a misconception. The genetic variation that occurs in a population because of mutation is random — but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way: genetic variants that aid survival and reproduction are much more likely to become common than variants that don’t. Natural selection is NOT random!’ https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_32

Their capitals by the way.
 
Fatima-Crusader said:
This might be a stupid question, but how does God guide evolution? Since it is random
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I can see at least two ways. First, what appears random to us may not be random to God. A single cosmic ray might have zigged, but God made it zag and cause a specific mutation. Science would never notice that.

Second, natural selection is driven by the environment. If God shapes the environment then random mutations and natural selection will adapt organisms to that environment.
 
Edgar said:
Contrast this with Christian belief, in which the life and future of every human being lies in the hands of a living, loving God.
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Karma can only send you to a temporary hell. Your “loving God” can send you to a permanent hell. That also makes your permanent heaven another hell.

You are in a six-star luxury resort, with everything you want available. In the room next door you can hear the screams of your family and friends, who you love, (as in “love your neighbour as yourself”) being horribly tortured. For ever.

Are you happy?

One of the causes of suffering is separation from those you love. If you love everyone as yourself then you love those in hell and their plight causes you suffering. Unending suffering.
Edgar said:
Pray tell … how can karma - which is a mindless force with no intelligence or even life - possibly know what is “good, neutral and evil”?
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Pray tell … how can gravity - which is a mindless force with no intelligence or even life - possibly know what is heavy or light?
Edgar said:
Karma existed before human beings, n’est ce pas ?
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Yes. Karma affects gods, humans and animals. Both gods and animals existed before humans.
 
rossum said:
You are in a six-star luxury resort, with everything you want available. In the room next door you can hear the screams of your family and friends, who you love, (as in “love your neighbour as yourself”) being horribly tortured. For ever.
Are you happy?
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Allow me…

They CHOSE to be there!
 
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Bradskii said:
40.png
Edgar:
40.png
Bradskii:
It’s not random.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but it is random, because the outcome of the process of evolution is ultimately determined by environmental conditions, which are random.
Click to expand...
How can you argue against something which you don’t understand?

‘At the opposite end of the scale, natural selection is sometimes interpreted as a random process. This is also a misconception. The genetic variation that occurs in a population because of mutation is random — but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way: genetic variants that aid survival and reproduction are much more likely to become common than variants that don’t. Natural selection is NOT random!’ https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_32

Their capitals by the way.
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Misconceptions about natural selection

Because natural selection can produce amazing adaptations, it’s tempting to think of it as an all-powerful force, urging organisms on, constantly pushing them in the direction of progress — but this is not what natural selection is like at all.

First, natural selection is not all-powerful; it does not produce perfection. If your genes are “good enough,” you’ll get some offspring into the next generation — you don’t have to be perfect. This should be pretty clear just by looking at the populations around us: people may have genes for genetic diseases, plants may not have the genes to survive a drought, a predator may not be quite fast enough to catch her prey every time she is hungry. No population or organism is perfectly adapted.

Second, it’s more accurate to think of natural selection as a process rather than as a guiding hand. Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity — it is mindless and mechanistic. It has no goals; it’s not striving to produce “progress” or a balanced ecosystem.

This is why “need,” “try,” and “want” are not very accurate words when it comes to explaining evolution. The population or individual does not “want” or “try” to evolve, and natural selection cannot try to supply what an organism “needs.” Natural selection just selects among whatever variations exist in the population. The result is evolution.

At the opposite end of the scale, natural selection is sometimes interpreted as a process. This is also a misconception. The genetic variation that occurs in a population because of mutation is random — but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way: genetic variants that aid survival and reproduction are much more likely to become common than variants that don’t. Natural selection is NOT random!

This is so Vague…
 
Techno2000 said:
40.png
Bradskii:
40.png
Edgar:
40.png
Bradskii:
It’s not random.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but it is random, because the outcome of the process of evolution is ultimately determined by environmental conditions, which are random.
Click to expand...
How can you argue against something which you don’t understand?

‘At the opposite end of the scale, natural selection is sometimes interpreted as a random process. This is also a misconception. The genetic variation that occurs in a population because of mutation is random — but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way: genetic variants that aid survival and reproduction are much more likely to become common than variants that don’t. Natural selection is NOT random!’ https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_32

Their capitals by the way.
Click to expand...
Misconceptions about natural selection

Because natural selection can produce amazing adaptations, it’s tempting to think of it as an all-powerful force, urging organisms on, constantly pushing them in the direction of progress — but this is not what natural selection is like at all.

First, natural selection is not all-powerful; it does not produce perfection. If your genes are “good enough,” you’ll get some offspring into the next generation — you don’t have to be perfect. This should be pretty clear just by looking at the populations around us: people may have genes for genetic diseases, plants may not have the genes to survive a drought, a predator may not be quite fast enough to catch her prey every time she is hungry. No population or organism is perfectly adapted.

Second, it’s more accurate to think of natural selection as a process rather than as a guiding hand. Natural selection is the simple result of variation, differential reproduction, and heredity — it is mindless and mechanistic. It has no goals; it’s not striving to produce “progress” or a balanced ecosystem.

This is why “need,” “try,” and “want” are not very accurate words when it comes to explaining evolution. The population or individual does not “want” or “try” to evolve, and natural selection cannot try to supply what an organism “needs.” Natural selection just selects among whatever variations exist in the population. The result is evolution.

At the opposite end of the scale, natural selection is sometimes interpreted as a process. This is also a misconception. The genetic variation that occurs in a population because of mutation is random — but selection acts on that variation in a very non-random way: genetic variants that aid survival and reproduction are much more likely to become common than variants that don’t. Natural selection is NOT random!

This is so Vague…
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Tecno, you can’t understand the basic concepts. Anthing more specific would be a lost cause.
 
The unfortunate reality is that some are stuck in an either/or dichotomy versus various shades of grey. They either believe God virtually does everything or that there is no God.

The concept that God does everything removes “free will” from the equation, thus if everything is predetermined why are we even here at CAF discussing anything if everything was totally planned out by God to begin with? Why evangelize? Why worry about sin at all if we’ve already been completely programmed?

OTOH, if there is no God, then what is to establish our morals? Are human sacrifices OK? child porn? Is everything just “Do your own thing”?

IMO, it makes no sense that God directs every little thing that goes on in the universe, but it also makes no sense if there’s not a moral guide for us to follow dictated by at least Something, and I just happen to believe that this “Something” is God.

However, don’t ask me how to exactly define God since that’s well beyond my pay-grade.
 
Bradskii said:
They CHOSE to be there!
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Your child choses to eat some ‘sweets’ which are actually strong pills, not for children. “She CHOSE to eat them so we won’t take her to hospital.”

Besides, maybe the Calvinists are right and it was God who chose that they be there, not themselves.

Or else, as Toby says: “The Jews were right”.
 
The “shades of grey” concept is false. Either something is right or it’s wrong.
 
Any major change to an organism, like a novel organ, means that change has to function in the environment as well. I doubt fish who supposedly became amphibians started eating whatever on dry land - eventually. The environment/food needed to be edible and understandable every step of the way, not millions of years later.
 
I applied “shades of grey” correctly, so my guess is that you applied it @edwest to the issue of morality.
 
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rossum said:
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Techno2000:
So,the environment is going to wait around until they are perfect ?
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Your misunderstanding is very obvious. The environment leads. Evolution follows.
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Right, that’s my point , but that can’t work in the real world.Evolution and the environment would have to work at the same exact time for any offspring to be fit enough to survive. Or even better, evolution would almost have to be one step ahead of the environment.
 
Edgar said:
Sorry, but it is random, because the outcome of the process of evolution is ultimately determined by environmental conditions, which are random.
Click to expand...
He may be admitting some mutations are cell directed. 😀
 
rossum said:
I can see at least two ways. First, what appears random to us may not be random to God. A single cosmic ray might have zigged, but God made it zag and cause a specific mutation. Science would never notice that.

Second, natural selection is driven by the environment. If God shapes the environment then random mutations and natural selection will adapt organisms to that environment.
Click to expand...
Mutations are not random?
 
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