WHY ???

[sammy5358]

I’m somewhat confused with a few ideas:

Why did Jesus come to us ? (assuming for a moment that he wasn’t part of the plan from the beginning)

Was the human race not living as it should ? Were we sinning too much ?
Was the idea to show us that if we’re good we will be resurrected ?
Wasn’t that already the idea that if we followed the 10 commandments we would go to Heaven ?

We are taught that Jesus died for our sins…what does that exactly mean ?
How can one man take on all humanity’s sins ? I mean I can’t take on
my wife’s sins if I wanted to ?

What would happen to me if he didn’t die for my sins, would I still not pay for them
after death through purgatory and eventually get to Heaven (if I wasn’t horrible and went to hell )?

Where does the devil fit in here ? Why was he owed a debt ?
Why did he try to get Jesus to give up on his mission (in the garden) ?

Thanks You for reading

Sammy

 

[fabricdragon]

i am NOT a theologian… so please understand that this may not be as well stated as i mean it to be…

part of the problem i have answering this post is that, well. frankly some of the questions dont make sense once you understand the answer to one of the other ones.

1. a man could not take on everyone’s sins.
2. Jesus was not “merely” a man, but the Son of God, both Fully Human and Fully Divine.
3. Jesus was sent to save us from the consequences of sin…

it seems you have a lot of basic Christianity background you dont know… i will suggest that first you go to a library and or a bookstore and look at some basic “what is Christianity” books. Catholicism for Dummies (and no i am NOT saying you are a dummy) is a decent one, but i suspect you may need more basic information than that.

look at the most BASIC statement of belief: The Apostles Creed (or the more complex Nicene Creed)

Start from there, go over it line by line. it is a summary of Christian thought.
once you have gone over THAT i suspect you will have a better place to start asking questions that we can help you with!

also? seriously? thats a heck of a pile of questions, many of which really will disappear once you get a few basic facts, that i dont want to try to pick through them …and end up confusing you worse.

 

[Julie_L]

You ask some really big questions, that deserve some very long answers. I think whole books have been written to answer some of them. Have you ever read anything written by Scott Hahn? He touches on some of theses questions in depth, explaining the history and plan of God.

A good book to start with is: A Father Who Keeps His Promises
www.catholiccompany.com/catholic-catalog/279/Books

 

[fabricdragon]

You ask some really big questions, that deserve some very long answers. I think whole books have been written to answer some of them. Have you ever read anything written by Scott Hahn? He touches on some of theses questions in depth, explaining the history and plan of God.

A good book to start with is: A Father Who Keeps His Promises
www.catholiccompany.com/catholic-catalog/279/Books

IAWTP
scott Hahn’s books are excellent, but may be a bit …scholarly? advanced? for someone who is just starting out. i love them, but if they go “whoosh” over your head dont feel sad. just start with other books!

i find most books on the Rosary to be excellent, but. i know i got into the church because of the Rosary so i am a bit biased.

 

[grndslm]

I like these questions…

I’m subscribing to this thread, so I can respond later when I get a chance.

 

[sammy5358]

I appreciate your responses and understand that through certain books these questions may perhaps be answered. I just thought that in this Philosophy Forum, there may be folks able to take a crack at these answers.

fabricdragon… I understand and believe deeply in my Roman Catholic beliefs as stated in our Cathechism and Apostles Creed, etc. However, I think there is a fundamental difference in being able to say “he died for our sins” and actually understanding what that means. Most people don’t know what that means and will never
ask.

I realize that Jesus was not merely a man, but that doesn’t answer these questions.
For instance, you state that “Jesus was sent to save us from the consequences of sin”
Why was that necessary ? Didn’t our Jewish brothers from before Christ’s time already (and still) have Yom Kippur for atonement for their sins ?

These are far from basic questions as you put it.

I think Julie L understands what I’m asking, but rather than refer to a book, I’d like to hear what people here think.

Humbly,

Sammy

 

[fabricdragon]

actually, the Old Testament sacrifices, as explaned in the New testament, were “foreshadowing” or incomplete steps…

the “Day of Atonement” when the jews slaughtered a lamb and sent the scapegoat out into the wilderness… had to be repeated every year… (and thats in ADDITION to the usual sacrfifices you were expected to make personally for sin) it was a band aid.
Jesus was “the lamb” (paschal and sacrificial…) who was ACTUALLY perfect, without blemish… and could therfore be more thn a “band aid”

seriously, if thats the level of discussion you are up for, i would strongly suggest you read books by Catholic authors talking about the new testament and the old. including a book… err. name. name
blst.
it was something like “Jesus, fulfillment of the prophecy/old testament” i am sorry, the name escapes me
also Scott hahn.

also? maybe you would get a lot more out of the books on teh Rosary, many of the deeper ones speak about the old and new testaments and why. the why of Christ, and his coming.

i dont explain myself well, i find. its not a gift i have.
i find that reading CS Lewis, books on the Rosary, books by Scott Hahn, and almsot all the books on the Eucharist, answer EXACTLY those questions, better than i ever could
good luck!

 

[St_Francis]

…I think Julie L understands what I’m asking, but rather than refer to a book, I’d like to hear what people here think…

The thing is, your questions are rather comprehensive for someone to answer thoroughly here. Moreover, you probably don’t want to know what people “feel,” wouldn’t you be more interested in the *truth? *

Very briefly:

I’m somewhat confused with a few ideas:

Why did Jesus come to us ? (assuming for a moment that he wasn’t part of the plan from the beginning)

Christ opened the Gates of Heaven, which had been closed by the actions of Adam and Eve in the Garden; and offered His sufferings as a sacrifice for our sins.

Was the human race not living as it should ? Were we sinning too much ?

People cannot live as they should without God’s grace (help). Christ did not become incarnate at that time because those people were particularly bad, but just because that was the best time in the estimation of God, Who knows everything.

Was the idea to show us that if we’re good we will be resurrected ?

Everyone has eternal life–we will all be resurrected. Where we will spend eternity is the question.

Wasn’t that already the idea that if we followed the 10 commandments we would go to Heaven ?

No.

We are taught that Jesus died for our sins…what does that exactly mean ?

Christ died in atonement for our sins. When we sin, we transgress against God, our Creator. We are too small to make atonement, so Christ did so for us.

How can one man take on all humanity’s sins ? I mean I can’t take on
my wife’s sins if I wanted to ?

Christ is both God and man. A man could not do what He has done.

What would happen to me if he didn’t die for my sins, would I still not pay for them
after death through purgatory and eventually get to Heaven (if I wasn’t horrible and went to hell )?

You have to contribute, but if He had not died for our sins, then we would not be able to enter Heaven.

Where does the devil fit in here ?

Why do you think the devil fits in here?

Why was he owed a debt ?

I have never heard that he was. Maybe you could give more information about this.

Why did he try to get Jesus to give up on his mission (in the garden) ?

Because he hates God and everything good and doesn’t want to see anything God wants happen or anything good to happen to us.

Hope that helps!

 

[tonyrey]

Why did Jesus come to us ? (assuming for a moment that he wasn’t part of the plan from the beginning) Was the human race not living as it should ? Were we sinning too much ?

The history of the human race answers that question!

Was the idea to show us that if we’re good we will be resurrected ?

If we follow Him we will find Him…

Wasn’t that already the idea that if we followed the 10 commandments we would go to Heaven ?

The Jewish idea of the afterlife was vague and their morality had become too legalistic.

We are taught that Jesus died for our sins…what does that exactly mean?

It means He liberated us from the power of evil with the power of his love. “Greater love has no man than this: to lay down his life for his friends.” He refused to become caught up in the vortex of revenge, violence and bloodshed. Even though He was innocent he submitted to an unjust execution to show us it is better to die rather than degrade ourselves to the level of those who stake everything on life in this world.

How can one man take on all humanity’s sins?

A man who is the Son of God can! We can all take on the sins of others because we are not isolated individuals. We are cells in the Body of Christ. We can choose to atone for the sins of others because love unites us so that we can forget ourselves and identify ourselves totally with another person. Jesus prayed that we may be one as He and the Father are one. What we do to others we do to Him.

I mean I can’t take on my wife’s sins if I wanted to ?

Why not? If you make a sacrifice for her is it completely useless? Even to pray for her is to give your time and energy for her when you could be doing something for yourself. If prayers have any effect then we can intercede on another person’s behalf. That is why we belong to the Communion of Saints. What affects one of us affects all of us.

What would happen to me if he didn’t die for my sins, would I still not pay for them after death through purgatory and eventually get to Heaven (if I wasn’t horrible and went to hell )?

No one deserves to share life with God. How can imperfect creatures expect to be in the presence of Love? It is only because the Son chose to become the Way, the Truth and the Life for us on earth that we can be raised up to heaven. It was symbolic that He was lifted up on the Cross as the result of His love…

Where does the devil fit in here ? Why was he owed a debt?

How can anyone, let alone God, owe the devil anything?! The devil represents the power of evil but that does not mean there are no evil spirits. One atheist philosopher became a Christian because he realised that much of the evil in the world cannot be explained naturally.

Why did he try to get Jesus to give up on his mission (in the garden) ?

For the same reason he tempted Jesus in the desert. He wants others to revolt against God and live for themselves in “splendid isolation” - in which they are absolutely free but slaves to themselves, a kingdom of their own which gives them pleasure but also misery…

 

[sammy5358]

These are excellent words/reasons/explanations. Thank You.

I’ve never heard that Christ “opened the gates of Heaven, which had been closed by the actions of Adam and Eve” before. Is that written anywhere in the bible/cathechism ?
Does this mean during the time before Christ, Saints were not entering Heaven when they died. Is this why we say in the Apostles Creed that he “descended into hell”, did he bring the souls that deserved to go to Heaven up from Hell ?

Speaking of Adam and Eve (and I know that they had freewill), why did God allow them to ruin it for the rest of us. Why would he allow a fallen angel, through the temptation of Adam and Eve, to create a stain on all his creations souls until the end of time ? If we’re not baptised, original sin will not be wiped away.

“Christ died in atonement for our sins” Yes this is what we are taught.
This means then that when God created everything in the beginning he would have had full knowledge that we would fail (in sin) and that he would manifest himself among us to take on all our sins and then atone for us to himself ?

Regarding the Jews, our predecessors, they didn’t have the benefit of getting to Heaven
“only through me” (Jesus) so what was happening to their souls during the gates being closed up to Jesus time ?

I see your point about taking on another person’s sins…your absolutely right, praying for them is of course a way in which we can take on (at least partially) someone else’s sin. Good point.

Regarding the devil fitting in, I asked because I was unsure…when I think of sin I always
feel he has everything to do with it. Therefore when discussing the history of the world and Adam and Eve’s sin and how Jesus came to take on all our sins, I thought he was in the works somewhere.

Please forgive what may sound like naivete, but I’m just trying to understand fuller and grow in my faith.

Please…let me know further what you think (anyone).

Humbly,

Sammy

 

[tonyrey]

I’ve never heard that Christ “opened the gates of Heaven, which had been closed by the actions of Adam and Eve” before. Is that written anywhere in the bible/catechism ? Does this mean during the time before Christ, Saints were not entering Heaven when they died.

In eternity our earthly concept of time is irrelevant. We are always in the present because we do not occupy space. Just as truth, goodness, beauty and love transcend the physical universe so do we.

Is this why we say in the Apostles Creed that he “descended into hell”, did he bring the souls that deserved to go to Heaven up from Hell?

I think the exact translation is the “underworld”. I can’t imagine Jesus being in hell! We have to remember that human descriptions of the spiritual realm are figurative rather than literal. How else can they be expressed?

Speaking of Adam and Eve (and I know that they had freewill), why did God allow them to ruin it for the rest of us.

I don’t think “ruin” is the right word because it suggests destruction! We are not born into a noble, or even neutral, moral environment but one which is dominated by selfishness and corruption. “Original sin” does not mean we are born sinners but that we are victims of the sins of our ancestors. We inherit the results of their vices and faults just as we inherit other characteristics. Why? Because they chose to live for themselves and without love for others. And if we do the same we too will make it difficult for our descendants. The reality is that we are all part of one family in which we all benefit and suffer from what the other members do.

Why would he allow a fallen angel, through the temptation of Adam and Eve, to create a stain on all his creation’s souls until the end of time ? If we’re not baptised, original sin will not be wiped away.

“stain” is a metaphor which is misleading. It does not mean we are stained with the guilt of sin but with the effects of sin. We are weakened and blinded by the polluted moral atmosphere in which we live. It is very difficult to be virtuous when you are surrounded by vice! And once again it is because we are all part of God’s Creation. We don’t know to what extent we are exposed to the influence of malign spirits but the most diabolical cruelty in the world cannot be explained by natural causes. There is plenty of evidence of possession which has driven people to kill themselves and others. I have had personal experience of a case in which there were two suicides linked by one boy…

“Christ died in atonement for our sins”. Yes this is what we are taught.
This means then that when God created everything in the beginning he would have had full knowledge that we would fail (in sin) and that he would manifest himself among us to take on all our sins and then atone for us to himself ?

It is obvious that when you share your freedom with others you know they are likely to abuse their freedom but you take that risk because you know that otherwise they are incapable of love. You also know they will need help to overcome the effects of evil and the best way to help them will be to live with them and show them how to love others in practical terms. By becoming one with them they can become one with you - if that is what they choose. This is precisely what Jesus did and He prayed to the Father that “they may be one as we are one”. He delivered us from the power of evil with the power of His love in His life on earth and His death on the Cross. That is all we need to know…

Regarding the Jews, our predecessors, they didn’t have the benefit of getting to Heaven “only through me” (Jesus) so what was happening to their souls during the gates being closed up to Jesus time ?

I see your point about taking on another person’s sins…your absolutely right, praying for them is of course a way in which we can take on (at least partially) someone else’s sin. Good point.

And you are right about not taking on all the sin. The other person still has to make amends in some way. It takes two to atone!

Regarding the devil fitting in, I asked because I was unsure…when I think of sin I always feel he has everything to do with it. Therefore when discussing the history of the world and Adam and Eve’s sin and how Jesus came to take on all our sins, I thought he was in the works somewhere.

I’ve anticipated your thoughts - with my remarks on possession, which may have been the case with Judas.

Please forgive what may sound like naivete, but I’m just trying to understand fuller and grow in my faith.

These are not naive questions, Sammy, but questions that get to the heart of the matter. In this case the Sacred Heart! Thanks for asking them.

 

[Julie_L]

You asked if there was any place in the bible that mentions Jesus opening the gates…
In John 3:13, we hear how no one has gone yet to Heaven:

“No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man” John 3:13

And in the catechism it says:

CCC #637: “In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.”

There may be more, but this is all I found in a quick search,
Jules

 

[Julie_L]

Here is another book I’d like to just mention. I read it a few Lents ago as part of my faith formation. You may have heard of it. It is what was used to make the movie The Passion.
The book is called: The Dolorous Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ.
It is about the Meditations of Anne Catherine Emmerich who had visions of Jesus’ Passion for many years.

You can buy the book or read in on line.
Here is the link to the chapter where Emmerich has a vision of what happened after Jesus died on the cross:

jesus-passion.com/THE_PASSION6.htm

 

[Julie_L]

Sorry for the multiple postings… but I just though of one more: The Apostles’ Creed.
Remember, we say: “He descended into hell.”

 

[sammy5358]

Julie L:

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut and the references.

Sammy

 

[sammy5358]

I’ve reread this thread several times and just want to pass on my thanks to all for helping me understand what I asked. You are all very good teachers.
Humbly,
Sammy