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Lux_et_veritas:
I see a parallel to something so stick with me here (and please don’t get any wrong impressions).

When my 73 year old mother was a child, she was disciplined with a “cane”. There was structure - everyone had chores and ate at least one meal together. Very harsh, but she survived and turned out to be a wonderful person (and no, I don’t advocate caning children).

When she raised us kids 45-50 years ago, it was open hand discipline and ditto on the structure - everyone worked and ate together. We turned out fine, and once again I don’t advocate hitting children.

Some 25 years ago, when my sister raised her daughter, she wanted to be her friend. Dinner was in the living room, everyone eating at different times, and in front of the TV. Oh, and they all ate something different. The child didn’t have to do anything she didn’t want to do because “she was her own person”. (Uh-hmm - no comment :rolleyes: )

Today, I see many parents learning to use techniques such as those taught by the famous “Nannies” of Nanny-911 and SuperNanny with great effectiveness. What are they teaching? Discipline and structure and they are doing it with outstanding results without caning or hitting.

Now my point…

The Catholic Church has gone through all of these stages. As I listen to mom talk about how she was petrified of the priests in her day, thinking she was going to hell no matter what (and I know they didn’t do this intentionally), I see the parallel to things in her day.

In the last 30 years, I feel that the Catholic Church in developed countries has treated us, the children, like friends, rather than as children who needed to develop a sense of discipline and structure. Not only was there no longer talk of sin and hell, but God was all loving and no matter what you did, or neglected to do, you were going to heaven and that’s all there is to it. My CCD training was this way in the 70’s. “God is love” and “love is God” to which I said, “but Sister, what does pride mean or lust, or gluttony?” And, sister would say, “Now don’t you fret about any of that because God is Love”. (not exact words by the way, but representative of how shallow catechesis became).

Now, in walks Benedict, the Big-Nanny. He is going to do to our Catholic Church what the Nannies have done for a few lucky families on TV. However, in time it will spread. What is now unfashionable, will become fashionable. Discipline and Structure were abhored in the 70’s and even the 80’s. Now, they are slowly making a comback. It will be the same with the Church. He is going to make the course correction as sure as I am typing this response and he will do it with Love and Compassion, not a cane or an open hand (to the disappointment of some, unfortunately).

:cool:
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:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
I see a parallel to something so stick with me here (and please don’t get any wrong impressions).

Now my point…

The Catholic Church has gone through all of these stages. As I listen to mom talk about how she was petrified of the priests in her day, thinking she was going to hell no matter what (and I know they didn’t do this intentionally), I see the parallel to things in her day.

In the last 30 years, I feel that the Catholic Church in developed countries has treated us, the children, like friends, rather than as children who needed to develop a sense of discipline and structure. Not only was there no longer talk of sin and hell, but God was all loving and no matter what you did, or neglected to do, you were going to heaven and that’s all there is to it. My CCD training was this way in the 70’s. “God is love” and “love is God” to which I said, “but Sister, what does pride mean or lust, or gluttony?” And, sister would say, “Now don’t you fret about any of that because God is Love”. (not exact words by the way, but representative of how shallow catechesis became).

Now, in walks Benedict, the Big-Nanny. He is going to do to our Catholic Church what the Nannies have done for a few lucky families on TV. However, in time it will spread. What is now unfashionable, will become fashionable. Discipline and Structure were abhored in the 70’s and even the 80’s. Now, they are slowly making a comback. It will be the same with the Church. He is going to make the course correction as sure as I am typing this response and he will do it with Love and Compassion, not a cane or an open hand (to the disappointment of some, unfortunately).

:cool:
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:blessyou:
 
Steve Green:
We have as a standard an inferior liturgy subjected to the whims or liturgical directors in the west. I look at this message board and I have to laugh. Want Benedict to fix it ? I honestly believe he is afraid to lose money from the US coffers. The new mass, in its condition, breeds abuse and message boards. Let’s put paint on the yugo.

The only real solution out of this mess is for our pope to allow any priest to say the TLM and recover, normalize relations with “schismatic” orders. Oh coarse most priests woln’t say the TLM but there will be enough around and traditional societies, with churches so when the real western schism occurs and the new American Catholic Episcopal Unity Church is officially formed the leftovers will have a place to go.
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Says you. The Catholic Church says different.

BTW, your “tlm silver-bullet” idea is rather laughable…
 
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ddimitro:
Almost exactly what I wanted to say. I don’t believe the EWTN Masses, etc. are beautiful. Yes, the Gregorian Chant and the incense is helpful, and it’s nice to not see liturgical abuses, but it just can’t make up for the liturgy itself. Let’s not forget: the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the most important thing we can offer on Earth.

Let’s be objective when we compare the two: Is not the TLM comparable to Abel’s offering, and the NO like Cain’s?

This is about God, after all, friends.
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Your comments are laughable – and just a bit sad. The sheer ignorance and/or arrogance required to attack the normative Pauline Mass as you have done goes a long way in explaining the current situation of the Church in the USA.
 
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tcraig:
As someone who has attended several churches where the NO mass was done properly and beautifully, I have to say that in my opinion it doesn’t hold a candle to the older TLM. The new NO rite is far too similar to my old Methodist service, and feels very “protestant” to me.

Personally, I think Catholics want to be and “feel” like Catholics. They don’t want ecumenism, they want authentic Catholicism. They want priests in cassocks, nuns in habits, and churches full of statues, candles, and incense. Otherwise, why bother?
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And the Church faced tough times when it celebrated the Tridentine Mass here in the USA.

It’s very sad when people ignorantly lock-onto the rediculous “tridentine Mass is better than the Pauline Mass” instead of actually helping the Church to improve.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Take heart, Dear Friend!
Changes are coming, slow but changes. The young Catholics are more conservative and are having large families!
JPII was a great spiritual leader but not a great discipinarian. I feel that this is the reason why the College of Cardinals vote in B16. He is firmer.
St. Michael the Archangel used to be invoked at the end of every Holy Mass. We Humbly pray to him at the end of ours. Prayers and talking with our feet are all we have.
You have moved to a more conservative rite. Perhaps one day, you can come back. If not, you have made the right move.

Mother Angelica led the way. People are seeing that the innovations put in at their parishes are not always right. Catholics are taking a stand.
If you are ever in MI, come to my parish.
saintcyrils.org

You will see the NO the way it is suppose to be done.
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Very well said. As wonderful as Pope JPII was for the Church and all of mankind, he couldn’t be strong in all areas – and “management” was one of those areas…
 
Pariah Pirana:
And the Church faced tough times when it celebrated the Tridentine Mass here in the USA.

It’s very sad when people ignorantly lock-onto the rediculous “tridentine Mass is better than the Pauline Mass” instead of actually helping the Church to improve.
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My opinion on which mass is objectively better is just that - my opinion. I have opinions on a lot of things, and which mass is better is just one of many. It isn’t made out of ignorance, but from actual experience. I have attended both the TLM and NO masses many, many times. I prefer the TLM, and think it better serves the church’s theology. I’ve never once said that the NO is invalid. I just think it’s inferior even when celebrated properly, and downright ugly when celebrated with abuses. It also feels very protestant to me. I’m a former Methodist, and the similarities between the NO and my former Methodist service are astounding.

If you have attended both masses, and prefer the NO, that’s fine with me. You will certainly have more chances to satisfy your desire than those of us who prefer the TLM. But the Church allows both, and I exercise my right to choose. Please stop acting like the “Pauline police” and criticizing everyone who states a preference for the older mass.

As far as helping the church to improve, how am I *not *helping the church when I support my TLM parish with my contributions, prayers and presence? Personally, I get much more peace and comfort in my religion, and am able to contribute my talents more, when I am not having to act like the “liturgy police” and implore the priest to do his job properly.

And, just out of curiosity, what “tough times” did the church experience when celebrating the TLM in the US? Are you talking about the past or the present?
 
Pariah Pirana:
…“tlm silver-bullet” idea is rather laughable…
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As another poster mentioned, you seem to be policing the TLM threads and indirectly saying that the NO Mass can not be criticized. The new Pope has called the NO an unorganic, banal fabrication that has been in great part responsible for the crisis in the Church.

**“I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.” **
Cardinal Ratzinger from his book:
My Life: Remembrances 1927-1977

**"**What happened after the Council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. **We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over centuries, and replaced it-- as in a manufacturing process – with a fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product." **

Cardinal Ratzinger
preface to Klaus Gambers book “The Reform of the Roman Liturgy”

** “I was dismayed by the ban on the old missal, since such a development had never been seen in the history of liturgy. The impression was given that this was completely normal,”** Cardinal Ratzinger said. Catholic News Service, August 1997
 
Pariah Pirana:
Your comments are laughable – and just a bit sad. The sheer ignorance and/or arrogance required to attack the normative Pauline Mass as you have done goes a long way in explaining the current situation of the Church in the USA.
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My post never attacked the normative Pauline Mass. I simply stated that, in my opinion, the TLM is a superior sacrificial offering to God than the normative. I used the story of Cain and Abel to illustrate that point.

Your opinion is no more authoritative than mine, and vice-versa.
 
Pariah Pirana:
Your comments are laughable – and just a bit sad. The sheer ignorance and/or arrogance required to attack the normative Pauline Mass as you have done goes a long way in explaining the current situation of the Church in the USA.
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Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.

Let’s imagine the beginning of the two Offertory Prayers to God, one from the TLM and one from the normative Pauline Mass. Which one seems more like first fruits(Abel) and which one is likened to any old fruit (Cain)?

TLM: “Receive, O Holy Father, Almighty and Eternal God, this spotless Host, which I, Thy unworthy servant, offer unto Thee my living and true God, for my countless sins, offenses and negligences, for all here present and for all faithful Christians, whether living or dead, that it may be profitable for my own and their salvation unto life everlasting. Amen.”

Normative: “Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.”

Again, this question will always be subject to individual opinion, but since the Mass is a Sacrifice-Offering for God and not for the congregation, I bet the TLM gets the majority vote.

DD
 
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ddimitro:
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.

Let’s imagine the beginning of the two Offertory Prayers to God, one from the TLM and one from the normative Pauline Mass. Which one seems more like first fruits(Abel) and which one is likened to any old fruit (Cain)?

TLM: “Receive, O Holy Father, Almighty and Eternal God, this spotless Host, which I, Thy unworthy servant, offer unto Thee my living and true God, for my countless sins, offenses and negligences, for all here present and for all faithful Christians, whether living or dead, that it may be profitable for my own and their salvation unto life everlasting. Amen.”

Normative: “Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.”

Again, this question will always be subject to individual opinion, but since the Mass is a Sacrifice-Offering for God and not for the congregation, I bet the TLM gets the majority vote.

DD
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Excellent Sir !!!

Hey PP , I got a yugo for sale ? Wanna buy ?
 
TLM: “Receive, O Holy Father, Almighty and Eternal God, this spotless Host, which I, Thy unworthy servant, offer unto Thee my living and true God, for my countless sins, offenses and negligences, for all here present and for all faithful Christians, whether living or dead, that it may be profitable for my own and their salvation unto life everlasting. Amen.”
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I have to admit, it would probably do some good for many Mass goers to hear these words at the Offertory. It might cause a few to sit up and take notice. But they would have to hear them in English, or it would just go over their head.
 
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