Why?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Robert_Heibel
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Robert_Heibel

Guest
The following is a letter I sent to a priest acquaintance of mine who gives talks about the pedophile scandal in the Catholic Church.

Dear ,

I wonder if you would care to explain to me what you say to people when you give your talks about the priest who do sexual acts with other men and or boys? Especially when they quote the following Scriptures:

(Hebrews 6:4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

If you tell them that the priest most likely never knew God, then what do you say when you are asked how come the other spiritual men around them didn’t discerns that they were not of God?

The Holy Spirit has let me know when people I have associated with were not of God. So why were not at least the Bishops, walking in the gift of discernment?

Yours in Christ,
Bob
 
Robert Heibel:
(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”
Click to expand...
Perhaps you are proftexting with isolated verses.

Did Adam and Eve know God?
Did they see Him?

Did they sin despite their intimate relationship with God?

All priests need our prayers.

Peace in Christ…Salmon
 
40.png
Salmon:
Perhaps you are proftexting with isolated verses.

Did Adam and Eve know God?
Did they see Him?

Did they sin despite their intimate relationship with God?

All priests need our prayers.

Peace in Christ…Salmon
Click to expand...
As far as I know until after Jesus came, died and went back to the Father, no one had ever been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Now everyone who is a Christian should have the Holy Spirit to guide them, isn’t that right?

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”
 
First off, we know that the sacrament of Baptism forgives all sin committed before Baptism. If, after Baptism, man no longer had concupiscence and would no longer fall into sin, why then did Christ give first Peter and then the rest of the apostles His authority to forgive sins. It wouldn’t have been necessary, would it?

But we are human, and we do have concupiscence and fall back into sin. That is why the sacrament of Penance is needed as well as Eucharist. Both of these sacraments forgive venial sin that has been repented, but only Penance will bring a repentant mortal sinner back into reconciliation with both God and His Church.

Together, though, Eucharist and Penance are the usual means by which God leads us not into temptation. The more grace and help we seek in making virtues habits and breaking the bad habits of sin, the more God allows us to be strengthened to resist sin.

I also find it significant, as God proves His strength to us by choosing the weaker vessels through which to show His might, that Peter, the apostle to whom Jesus’ divinity was first revealed, the apostle who verbally denied our Lord three times, even though warned, is also the apostle to whom Jesus entrusted the care of His Church and its shepherds.

In Christ’s peace and joy,

Robin L. in TX
 
Robin L. in TX:
First off, we know that the sacrament of Baptism forgives all sin committed before Baptism. If, after Baptism, man no longer had concupiscence and would no longer fall into sin, why then did Christ give first Peter and then the rest of the apostles His authority to forgive sins. It wouldn’t have been necessary, would it?

But we are human, and we do have concupiscence and fall back into sin. That is why the sacrament of Penance is needed as well as Eucharist. Both of these sacraments forgive venial sin that has been repented, but only Penance will bring a repentant mortal sinner back into reconciliation with both God and His Church.

Together, though, Eucharist and Penance are the usual means by which God leads us not into temptation. The more grace and help we seek in making virtues habits and breaking the bad habits of sin, the more God allows us to be strengthened to resist sin.

I also find it significant, as God proves His strength to us by choosing the weaker vessels through which to show His might, that Peter, the apostle to whom Jesus’ divinity was first revealed, the apostle who verbally denied our Lord three times, even though warned, is also the apostle to whom Jesus entrusted the care of His Church and its shepherds.

In Christ’s peace and joy,

Robin L. in TX
Click to expand...
Just a reminder Robin, Peter denied Jesus before he was baptized with the Holy Spirit.
 
Christians shouldn’t sin but sometimes they do. Why? Because sometimes we take our eyes off the prize and give into sinful temptations. Consider the famous stories of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-11 and Simon Magus in Acts 8:9-24.

Note in the story of Simon Magus that nowhere does it say Simon wasn’t* really* a Christian. On the contrary, it says, he believed and was baptized (ver. 13) and received the Holy Spirit through the laying on of the apostles’ hands (ver. 17) but then he was tempted to simony and sinned. Peter rebuked him and told him to repent that his sin might be forgiven him and repentant Simon asked for Peter’s intercessory prayers.

St. Paul’s instructions to Timothy concerning the bishops and presbyters (priests) of the Church indicates that even ordained Christian preachers and teachers can fall into sin:

6He [A bishop] must not be a recent convert, or he may be puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil; 7moreover he must be well thought of by outsiders, or he may fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. (1 Timothy 3:6-7)

17Let the presbyters who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching; … 19Never admit any charge against a presbyter except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. … 22Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands , nor participate in another man’s sins; keep yourself pure. (1 Timothy 5:17-22)

Similarly, in Luke 12:41-48, Jesus indicates that even the chief presbyter of the Church (the pope, Peter and Peter’s successors, the bishops of Rome), “the faithful and wise steward, whom his Master … set over His household” (the Church) until His “return,” may fall into sin. (Luke 12:41-48)

Also, consider the words of John to Christians who may fall into sin and the forgiveness offered to them:
7but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; (1 John 1:7 - 2:1)

Regarding your quote from Hebrews:
4For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

When it says, “it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who … commit apostacy,” it means that it is practically impossible not that it is absolutely impossible. Remember what Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26) It should also be noted that this passage in Hebrews refers to the sin of “falling away” or “apostacy” (verse 6), a complete denial of the Christian faith, which is not the same as, say, the sin of drunkenness which Paul speaks to Christians about in 1 Corinthians 11:21.
By the way, just to clarify things, it wasn’t really a pedophile scandal but more of a homosexual scandal in the American Church, as the vast majority of the victims were male teenagers not pre-pubescent children.
 
Todd, Read the following Scripture, and then read your justification that you wrote, and after you are finished ask Jesus to explain the Scripture to you.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

Bob
 
Robert Heibel:
Todd, Read the following Scripture, and then read your justification that you wrote, and after you are finished ask Jesus to explain the Scripture to you.
Click to expand...
I don’t know what you are looking for Bob… we all sin… me, YOU, all of us… priests are no different.

… in fact, I really believe it’s harder for Priests… the devil does not spend a lot of time on a sinner like me… but I bet he’s got an army of demons down at my parish right now attacking my Priest.

I pray you move on to praying for the souls of priests, instead on writing letters about them.

Peace in Christ,
Scott
 
now that is a good answer, but the guy answered his own question in the 1st post. lol
 
40.png
st0ne:
now that is a good answer, but the guy answered his own question in the 1st post. lol
Click to expand...
I believe his very first post is that Christians cannot sin. If this is the case, we’re dealing with a huge Ego…I don’t know WHY I capitalized “Ego”…Id was an accident.
 
Scott! Haven’t you read Scripture at all? John, Paul, Peter all say Christians are dead to sin, and here you are calling them liars, or fools? Do you think they didn’t understand? People have become blind, they can’t see why Jesus came or why He sent us His Holy Spirit.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(2 Peter 2:20-22)”and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know the Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.” (I wont have enough room to finish this, but you can find it in your Bible.)

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Romans 6: 10 - 11) “When He died, He died, once for all, to sin, so His life now is life with God; and in that way, you too must consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God in Jesus Christ.”

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

(Romans 8: 5) “The unspiritual are interested only in what is unspiritual, but the spiritual are interested in spiritual things. It is death to limit oneself to what is unspiritual, life and peace can only come with concern for the spiritual.”

(Romans 8: 9 - 13) “Your interest, however are not in the unspiritual, but in the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made His home in you. In fact, unless you possessed the Spirit of Christ you would not belong to Him. Though your body may be dead it is because of sin, but if Christ is in you then your spirit is life itself because you have been justified; and if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then He who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit living in you.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 5: 16) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the simmer - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.

We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.” So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”
 
Robert,

I posted this on the other tread related to sin and I thought it pertinent to this thread as well. While you may have already read this perhaps others have not. The last paragraph is new and may help you better appreciate our view and why we have points of disagreement.

In Romans Chapter 6 Paul says that Christians are no longer slaves to sin and that they have become slaves to righteousness. In John 8:31-36, we read the following: "Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered him, “We are descendants of Abraham, and have never been in bondage to any one. How is it that you say, ‘You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.”

Clearly, the freedom spoken of in the “good news” is freedom from being slaves to sin and “committing” sin. In this, Robert, we lock arms with you. Most Protestants do not grasp this, and therefore mistakenly separate faith and works as they pertain to salvation. The problem that Catholics have with your view is that you apparently believe that these scriptures mean any and all sin regardless of how minor the sin might be. Please give careful thought to this issue.

Jesus and the apostles make it clear what kinds of sin they are referring to when it comes to those things that eternally separate us from God. Paul warns about reveling in drunkeness, debauchery, licentiousness, fornication, covetousness, scorcery, idolatry, and other things in Romans, Ephesians, Galations and most of his other letters. John warns of these things too and warns of the anti-Christ. In the book of Hebrews we are warned about apostasy. Peter warns of apostasy as well, although he does not use the term apostasy. There are also the warnings to the seven churches as stated in the book of Revelation. God also states in the Revelation 21:7-8 that “He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”

It is important to notice that the sins that we are warned about are serious and very damaging sins that separate us from God. This is what is being talked about in the gospel of John when he says that those in Christ do not sin. Please note that we are never told that minor infractions like “being momentarily cross with your spouse” will damn a person to hell. Neither is it reasonable to assume that Christians do not commit this kind of minor infraction. The verses that you have cited are excellent in making important comments concerning sin and salvation. They should not, however, be used as proof texts to suggest that Christians will not commit minor sins or that a serious sin by a Christian cannot occur or be forgiven.

All of the warnings given by Jesus and the apostles, including Paul, are made to Christian believers. Apparently, they all thought that Christians could and did sin. Moreover, Paul’s letters were generally written to the Christian Churches as “correctives” because of the back sliding that was occurring among the members. It is all about biblical context and the totality of the message contained in the good news. Your method of proof texting inadvertantly, but selectively, ignores other important details surrounding the issue of sin.
 
Robert Heibel:
Scott! Haven’t you read Scripture at all? John, Paul, Peter all say Christians are dead to sin, and here you are calling them liars, or fools? Do you think they didn’t understand? People have become blind, they can’t see why Jesus came or why He sent us His Holy Spirit.

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(2 Peter 2:20-22)”and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know the Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.” (I wont have enough room to finish this, but you can find it in your Bible.)

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Romans 6: 10 - 11) “When He died, He died, once for all, to sin, so His life now is life with God; and in that way, you too must consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God in Jesus Christ.”

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

(Romans 8: 5) “The unspiritual are interested only in what is unspiritual, but the spiritual are interested in spiritual things. It is death to limit oneself to what is unspiritual, life and peace can only come with concern for the spiritual.”

(Romans 8: 9 - 13) “Your interest, however are not in the unspiritual, but in the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made His home in you. In fact, unless you possessed the Spirit of Christ you would not belong to Him. Though your body may be dead it is because of sin, but if Christ is in you then your spirit is life itself because you have been justified; and if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then He who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit living in you.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 5: 16) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the simmer - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.

We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.” So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”
Click to expand...
It is curious how you choose to quote scripture to “proove” a point, and then tell us that Jesus told you that Christians cannot sin and that He was hung, when that differs to what the Bible says.
 
You don’t read your Bible do you? (Acts 5:30) “but it was you who had him executed by **hanging ** on a tree.” (Acts 10:39) “and also to the fact that they killed him by hanging him on a tree,”

THE AMERICAN HERITAGE COLLEGE dictionary B] (hang, hung, hanging)
 
40.png
adstrinity:
I believe his very first post is that Christians cannot sin. If this is the case, we’re dealing with a huge Ego…I don’t know WHY I capitalized “Ego”…Id was an accident.
Click to expand...
nooo, but i guess everyone can interpret scripture differently, which is i see, one of the reason why there are thousands of christian faiths today. :eek:
 
Robert Heibel:
Crucified, hanging (six of one half dozen other right)? So you still haven’t answered my question. Were John, Peter, and Paul wrong?
Click to expand...
No, they were not wrong - but you are taking what they are saying out of context…before I go on, however, let me ask you a question…Robert, do you sin?
 
40.png
SOGFPP:
… in fact, I really believe it’s harder for Priests… the devil does not spend a lot of time on a sinner like me… but I bet he’s got an army of demons down at my parish right now attacking my Priest.
Click to expand...
Wow, this really hit home and reminded me to pray for my priest! Thank you! Priests take on so much and I’m not often conscious of it beyond the fact that ours has been the lone priest in a huge parish. There are many facets to their work, aren’t there? I won’t fail to pray for him from now on.
40.png
adstrinity:
I believe his very first post is that Christians cannot sin. If this is the case, we’re dealing with a huge Ego…I don’t know WHY I capitalized “Ego”…Id was an accident.
Click to expand...
Oh nooooo! A pun! Eeeeek!

Back to the thread - Why the focus on priests who sin?

From what I’ve heard and read, protestant churches have a much bigger problem with this, along with schools… and heaven knows that the basic unit of our society is rife with the sexual abuse of children. Many times that of the occurrence within the Catholic Church.

I have first-hand experience of this within my family and I know how it’s dealt with - you sweep it under the carpet and you pretend it didn’t happen. Sometimes, as in my case, for several generations. Yes, three generations of little girls molested by the same old creep in our family.

The OP has switched tactics from giving us “a word” to giving us hell - over something which is epidemic in all of society, no less.

I’m very suspicious about a Jesus who would tell someone that sin among Christians is not possible - the clear implication when you tie the threads together is that the Catholic Church cannot be Christian because it is sinful. :nope:
 
40.png
ElizabethJoy:
Wow, this really hit home and reminded me to pray for my priest! Thank you! Priests take on so much and I’m not often conscious of it beyond the fact that ours has been the lone priest in a huge parish. There are many facets to their work, aren’t there? I won’t fail to pray for him from now on.

Oh nooooo! A pun! Eeeeek!

Back to the thread - Why the focus on priests who sin?

From what I’ve heard and read, protestant churches have a much bigger problem with this, along with schools… and heaven knows that the basic unit of our society is rife with the sexual abuse of children. Many times that of the occurrence within the Catholic Church.

I have first-hand experience of this within my family and I know how it’s dealt with - you sweep it under the carpet and you pretend it didn’t happen. Sometimes, as in my case, for several generations. Yes, three generations of little girls molested by the same old creep in our family.

The OP has switched tactics from giving us “a word” to giving us hell - over something which is epidemic in all of society, no less.

I’m very suspicious about a Jesus who would tell someone that sin among Christians is not possible - the clear implication when you tie the threads together is that the Catholic Church cannot be Christian because it is sinful. :nope:
Click to expand...
Again I ask were John, Peter, and Paul wrong? If not than maybe, just maybe Christian are missing something?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top