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Robert Heibel:
Crucified, hanging (six of one half dozen other right)? So you still haven’t answered my question. Were John, Peter, and Paul wrong?
No, it is not six of one half dozen other. Judas hung from a tree, Jesus was Crucified.

You still have not answered my question about Jesus being inconsistant or a liar in another thread.
 
Robert,

I mean no offense and I hope none will be taken. You have been given scripture and context in response to your position on Christians never sinning. For you to have a credible position you must exegetically, linguistically, and logically handle all of the context and verses that have been supplied to you. So far you have not done that.

I am more than willing to listen to your position and explanations as well as your personal experience in this area of doctrine. It is important, however, that you give some prayer and thought to the scriptures that we have presented on this and the other thread. Scriptural context is a beautiful tapestry of the inspired word, and the full meaning of God’s message can only be fully appreciated when we look at all that the apostles and Jesus tell us to see how it all fits together.
 
Robert Heibel:
Scott! Haven’t you read Scripture at all?
Robert, you can’t sincerly expect me to believe that you think I’ve never picked up a Bible… you just decided to insult me… to proclaim my ignorance of Scripture… and it did indeed hurt my feelings.

Some, my dear brother in Christ, would say that your behavior… is sinful.😉

… and we can play the Protestant “bible verse” game all day long… but we in the grace of God can discern Scripture a bit better than others…

Read 1 Tim 5:20
Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

… and explain to me why Paul would give such instructions to Christians who “could not sin”?

Paul knew the reality of our sinful nature… and glory to God, I’m pleased that so many of my Catholic brothers and sisters on this thread do as well.

Peace be with you Robert.
Scott M.
 
In addition to the examples of sinful Christians that I gave you earlier (Simon Magus, etc.), consider that Paul wrote to the Christians of Corinth about one of their number who was engaged in a sin of immorality. Paul tells them to excommunicate the man; “Let him who has done this be removed from among you”:

1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. 2And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. 3For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment 4in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:1-5)

Then, after hearing that the excommunicated man had repented of his sin, Paul wrote again to the Christians of Corinth telling them to forgive him and readmit him to their fellowship, saying:

6For such a one this punishment by the majority is enough; 7so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. 9For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. 10Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, 11to keep Satan from gaining the advantage over us; for we are not ignorant of his designs. (2 Corinthians 2:6-11)

Similarly, in chapter 2 of the book of Revelation, Jesus warns those Christians is the Churches of Pergamum and Thyatria who are engaged in immorality to repent or face his harsh judgment.

I have dealt with your misinterpretation of 1 John in your other thread, “Are Christians dead to sin?”
 
A person may have been baptized a Christian, but hasn’t yet been brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come. What these words tell us is that once a person knows really knows God and has the Holy Spirit (walks in the gifts of the Holy Spirit) they can’t sin. If they do sin (Acts 5:1-5) “There was another man, however, called Ananias. He and his wife, Sapphira, agreed to sell a property; but with his wife’s connivance he kept back part of the proceeds, and brought the rest and presented it to the apostles. Ananias, Peter said ‘how can Satan have so possessed you that you should lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the money from the land? While you still owned the land, wasn’t it yours to keep, and after you had sold it wasn’t the money yours to do with as you liked? What put this scheme into your mind? It is not to men that you have lied, but to God. When he heard this Ananias fell down dead. This Scripture tell us if we have the Holy Spirit in us and have been guided by Him, and still sin we are sinning against the Holy Spirit and that is unforgivable.

(Hebrews 6:4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
 
hello again Robert,

I believe that you are forgetting one thing about the bible, God does not contradict himself. God is the inspiration for the entire bible, and he always tells the truth, even though it is at times midigated through the human medium of the written word.

The only valid intrepratation of the scripture is the one that make sence of all the strands. Paul says by faith alone, James says not by faith alone, we must understand it in a way that makes sense of both without discrediting either.

This is best done throught Lectio Divina www.osb.org has some excelent information on this method of reading the bible that I would suggest anyone intrested should pursue.

God Bless

[btw - Robert, I have already sent you a copy of what God has said to me and have yet to recieve any further responce form you]
 
How to read the Bible? I don’t know how anyone else reads the Word of God, but for me I read, listen, and wait for Jesus (Holy Spirit) to instruct me on what I read and heard. Why would anyone want or need any other teacher.
 
Robert Heibel:
How to read the Bible? I don’t know how anyone else reads the Word of God, but for me I read, listen, and wait for Jesus (Holy Spirit) to instruct me on what I read and heard. Why would anyone want or need any other teacher.
The Lord ordains and wills that we have teachers and scripture says so and scripture tells us why.

1 Cor 12:28
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators,

Eph 4:11-16 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.

1 Timothy 2: 7
For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

1 Timothy 3:2
Now a bishop must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, dignified, hospitable, an apt teacher,

2 Timothy 2:24-26
And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

2 Timothy 3:12-14
Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it

2 Peter 1:20-21
First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

2 Peter 3:15-16
So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is **the church ** of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
 
Why sure we need teachers, that is how most everyone becomes aware of Jesus our Lord and God, right?

After we once know about God and accept Jesus as our savior and He sends us His Holy Spirit, then He will teach us.

(John 14:26)“but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”

St. Paul told us (1 Corinthians 2:13-14) “Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does not accept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyond his understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”
 
Robert Heibel:
After we once know about God and accept Jesus as our savior and He sends us His Holy Spirit, then He will teach us.
Then how do you justify the mass contradictions among protestants? They (all the different denominations) claim to be led by the Holy Spirit…but the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth and CANNOT contradict Himself…therefore the Holy Spirit CANNOT be who has led all the contradicting beliefs - there can be only *one *Truth.
 
You ask a good question, and because people do get misled so easily, everyone needs to be walking in the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit were leading the whole body of people, then when someone would tell, any one of them, anything about God, they each would go to Jesus and ask Him if it was right or wrong. Then they would be of one mind and heart.

What I am trying to do is share what Jesus has taught me, and my job, given to me by Jesus, is to give a word. The best way for anyone to find out if I’m right or wrong is to ask Jesus.

I know Jesus’ voice and I will follow no other. I will live the Word of God, as Jesus has taught me.
 
The Holy Spirit speaks to me through the Church.

From my point of view what I see from the witness of Christian history is that the Church has been consistent and honest in the Word, the truth. It was only when Protestantism came along and people started claiming to be lead by the Holy Spirit minus the Church that we started seeing a major division among the faithful.

Is this mere coincidence Robert? Is what this what the Holy Spirit does, divides?

I do consult Jesus through prayer, and there is just no rationalizing a true faith without the Church Jesus Christ Himself founded.
 
Robert Heibel:
Why sure we need teachers, that is how most everyone becomes aware of Jesus our Lord and God, right?

After we once know about God and accept Jesus as our savior and He sends us His Holy Spirit, then He will teach us.

(John 14:26)“but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”

St. Paul told us (1 Corinthians 2:13-14) “Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does not accept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyond his understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”
If your view is correct, in any kind of absolute sense based on the above quotes, then we don’t need scripture either. The verses I quoted would indicate that within the church, which is the body of believers, there are still teachers.
 
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Presence:
The Holy Spirit speaks to me through the Church.
I do consult Jesus through prayer, and there is just no rationalizing a true faith without the Church Jesus Christ Himself founded.
Amen!
 
I for one am sure glad we have the Scriptures. Jesus has used Scriptures to help teach me, and I used and still use them to make sure I’m on the straight and narrow.
 
Robert Heibel:
I for one am sure glad we have the Scriptures. Jesus has used Scriptures to help teach me, and I used and still use them to make sure I’m on the straight and narrow.
Robert,

I share this joy with you, but I am also grateful to Jesus for establishing His Church, the pillar and bulwark of truth.

Let’s see just what scripture says about the Church.

Jesus Christ founded the Church.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; Matthew 16:18

Jesus protects His Church.
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.
Matthew 28:19-20

Jesus is the head of the Church, the Church is His Body
Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.

“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; Ephesians 5:22-24, 31-32

Jesus intimately identifies Himself with His Church
But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now as he journeyed he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed about him. And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; Acts 9:1-5 (cf. Acts 22:4-7, Acts 26:9-15)

Note Jesus does not ask why Saul (Paul) is persecuting His Church, He asks “why do you persecute me?”

Christ loved the Church, cherishes & nourishes it. The Church is holy and without blemish.
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. Ephesians 5:25-30

The Church is the pillar & bulwark of the truth.
if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15

Obey.
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Hebrews 13:17

The Church as final authority, with the responsibility of binding and loosing.
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 18:17-18

“Vicars” (substitutes) of Christ
After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come. And he said to them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke 10:1-2, 16

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives any one whom I send receives me; and he who receives me receives him who sent me.” John 13:20

So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20

The Bishops have been placed in charge of the Church by the Holy Spirit
Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Acts 20:28 (Douay-Rheims) (note many Bibles translate the Greek word, episkopos, as “overseer”;. The traditional rendering is “bishop”, however. The King James version, for instance, translates it as “bishop” in every instance except this one! In any event, it shows that the Church has a heirarchical structure by the design of Almighty God.)
 
Robert Heibel:
How to read the Bible? I don’t know how anyone else reads the Word of God, but for me I read, listen, and wait for Jesus (Holy Spirit) to instruct me on what I read and heard. Why would anyone want or need any other teacher.
But an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert road. And he rose and went. And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a minister of Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of all her treasure, had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.” So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him." (Acts 8:26-31)

And count the forberance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15, 16)

I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth**. **(1 Timothy 3:15)

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses the listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 18:17, 18)

*Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, **teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; **and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” *(Matthew 28:16-20)

The Holy Spirit guides the whole Church, not just individuals, to proclaim the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, without any error, to the whole world. Instead of dropping the Bible out of heaven, our dear Lord left us His Catholic Church to guide us and teach us the gospel. The Church later wrote the Bible, and she alone has authority to correctly interpret it. The Holy Spirit protects the Pope, the bishops, and the whole Church from teaching error, as Jesus promised. God bless you.
 
Robert Heibel:
How to read the Bible? I don’t know how anyone else reads the Word of God, but for me I read, listen, and wait for Jesus (Holy Spirit) to instruct me on what I read and heard. Why would anyone want or need any other teacher.
Ah, the problem with trying to discern doctrine without the guidance of Christ’s Church: Robert, Jesus is not just another name for the Holy Spirit, and vice versa. Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity One God, and the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person.

I would strongly suggest interpreting Scripture in line with 2,000 years of Christian history. Seriously, this is my challenge for you: go pick up a book with the collection of some early Christian writers, from the time of the apostles to, say, 400 AD. Choose an academic source so you know the translation is not going to be slanted toward the “Catholic” view (if indeed it ever is, which I don;t believe-- but just for your sake). Tell me what you find they believe, specifcally in regards to the Church and the Eucharist, or the “breaking of the bread.”

Up for the challenge?

God bless.
 
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UKcatholicGuy:
Ah, the problem with trying to discern doctrine without the guidance of Christ’s Church: Robert, Jesus is not just another name for the Holy Spirit, and vice versa. Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity One God, and the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person.

I would strongly suggest interpreting Scripture in line with 2,000 years of Christian history. Seriously, this is my challenge for you: go pick up a book with the collection of some early Christian writers, from the time of the apostles to, say, 400 AD. Choose an academic source so you know the translation is not going to be slanted toward the “Catholic” view (if indeed it ever is, which I don;t believe-- but just for your sake). Tell me what you find they believe, specifcally in regards to the Church and the Eucharist, or the “breaking of the bread.”

Up for the challenge?

God bless.
When I accepted Jesus’ call into His ministry I asked Him what seminary to attend. He told me “NO! Don’t read about me, I’ll teach you about me.”

Jesus personally told me He is God, and the Holy Spirit told me that I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus, and to non Catholics that the Eucharist was truly Jesus’ Body and Blood.
 
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