Wicca and Teens

[Noesis]

Anytime I hear people rejecting Christianity it’s because it’s not comfortable and doesn’t allow them to do whatever they want.

I hope that you are not implying that a person who rejects Christianity, rejects it because they have a strong desire to be immoral; and I hope that this is not the case with you, because that would be incredibly unfair.

Having said that, you do touch upon a certain truth: a lot of ‘Neo-Paganism’ is built upon the idea that a person’s religion is something which is a reflection of their personality. This echo of their inner self, is the filter which causes them to perceive spiritual truths in a way which is idiosyncratic to their own self. Therefore, says ‘Neo-Paganism’, religious paths should be something which each individual should worry about only insofar as their own lives are concerned, rather than something which is viewed as being universal, and for everyone in more or less the same way.

But let us be clear that this position is more nuanced than to simply boil it down to a desire to do things which a Christian might consider sinful.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I have to tell you this has been my experience as well. Anytime I hear people rejecting Christianity it’s because it’s not comfortable and doesn’t allow them to do whatever they want. Some people are like spoiled children who hate rules and punishments.

There are some people who have legitimate concerns and objections to the Church but at the root of most objections is a childish temper tantrum.

I can empathize completely with these teens’ POV. Less than a year ago I nearly left the Catholic Church for Presbyterianism because I found the Catholic Mass boring.

I was poorly catechised. Luckily, thanks of course to the Holy Spirit and his instruments, the blog fallible blogma by Matthew Warner and a really good Theology teacher (Catholic High School), I stayed withing the True Church.

That being said, Christianity and Catholicism make very tough demands on people and I completely, 100% empathize with wanting to leave for comfort reasons, especially given the very conflicting message society is giving teens and really everybody today that reeks of moral relativism.

 

[AnAtheist]

AS a teen myself, the teens I know who get into Paganism/Wiccanism mostly get into it because it “fits” them the best. The emphasis on their choice of religion is based on comfort, not Truth.

So what? Not every religion (arrogantly) claims to spread "The Truth"™. Eps. neopagan religions don’t bother with that illusion.

 

[nickybr38]

I hope that you are not implying that a person who rejects Christianity, rejects it because they have a strong desire to be immoral; and I hope that this is not the case with you, because that would be incredibly unfair.

Having said that, you do touch upon a certain truth: a lot of ‘Neo-Paganism’ is built upon the idea that a person’s religion is something which is a reflection of their personality. This echo of their inner self, is the filter which causes them to perceive spiritual truths in a way which is idiosyncratic to their own self. Therefore, says ‘Neo-Paganism’, religious paths should be something which each individual should worry about only insofar as their own lives are concerned, rather than something which is viewed as being universal, and for everyone in more or less the same way.

But let us be clear that this position is more nuanced than to simply boil it down to a desire to do things which a Christian might consider sinful.

I did say that has been my experience but I recognize that isn’t always the case, unfortunately that’s just what I have seen in my life.

 

[kenofken]

If all we neo-pagans had wanted was a philosophy to justify our personal whims, it would have been far easier to go with nihilism, Satanism or even some homegrown apocalyptic Christianity in which we were “God’s Chosen”… Anyone who thinks paganism is inherently an easy path has never walked it or even read a serious book about it. The fact is any religion can be approached on a trivial basis or at greater depth by someone more spiritually disciplined. There are,to be sure, plenty of pagans who just wear that as a lifestyle accessory or nominal cultural identifier. The vast cultural battle going on in the church right now between conservatives and Catholics in name only illustrates that the same is true in Catholicism.

Christianity is only a tough path if you choose that route. On the other hand, in Catholicism, it’s very easy to be a CINO. For starters, no one born into the faith ever has to make a fully informed adult decision to commit to the faith. “Confirmation” is almost always an autopilot affair. No 14-year old really grasps what they’re signing on for, and I doubt whether most 18-year olds really do either (I hear varying accounts of the typical confirmation age these days). It’s another party for them and an automatic rite of passage. Many parents have their children baptized just to keep peace with their own parents and never darken a church door except for Christmas and Easter, and sometimes not even then. Confession is so rare these days as to be a curiosity among even regular church goers.

When it comes down to it, you don’t even have to believe in any Catholic dogma or doctrine whatsoever to be a Catholic. Once you’re baptized. If you do something hideously scandalous, you can be told you’re in lousy state of grace and discouraged from communion, but Canonically, you cannot resign. Of course Catholicism has it’s tougher and more rewarding road, and many of you on this forum probably pursue that. Conversely, paganism can also be a very spiritually challenging and rewarding path for those who stick with it beyond their teen years or those who, like many of us, come to it in later life.

 

[Shawn_Ravenfire]

Christianity is only a tough path if you choose that route. On the other hand, in Catholicism, it’s very easy to be a CINO. For starters, no one born into the faith ever has to make a fully informed adult decision to commit to the faith. “Confirmation” is almost always an autopilot affair. No 14-year old really grasps what they’re signing on for, and I doubt whether most 18-year olds really do either (I hear varying accounts of the typical confirmation age these days). It’s another party for them and an automatic rite of passage. Many parents have their children baptized just to keep peace with their own parents and never darken a church door except for Christmas and Easter, and sometimes not even then. Confession is so rare these days as to be a curiosity among even regular church goers.

When it comes down to it, you don’t even have to believe in any Catholic dogma or doctrine whatsoever to be a Catholic. Once you’re baptized. If you do something hideously scandalous, you can be told you’re in lousy state of grace and discouraged from communion, but Canonically, you cannot resign. Of course Catholicism has it’s tougher and more rewarding road, and many of you on this forum probably pursue that. Conversely, paganism can also be a very spiritually challenging and rewarding path for those who stick with it beyond their teen years or those who, like many of us, come to it in later life.

That was certainly my experience with Catholicism. Both my parents were CINO. (Actually, I didn’t even know my father’s side was Catholic until we went to my grandmother’s funeral when I was about thirty.) But I was baptized because my mother wanted to keep my grandparents happy. And I went through confirmation, even though nobody really explained to me what it was – just stand here, walk this way, do that, and let’s get out of here. Even my stepfather, who was my “sponsor,” didn’t understand it and was never religous.

So we’re all still “non-practicing Catholics” in theory. I’m told that Jews are the same way, that if you’re born Jewish, you’re technically Jewish forever. It sort of reminds me of American citizenship. If you come to this country willingly, you have to study and pass a test, but if you’re born here, you don’t have to know anything.

Maybe Catholics should consider moving the confirmation age up to twenty or even thirty, instead of it being automatic. Just a suggestion.

 

[justamoose89]

That was certainly my experience with Catholicism. Both my parents were CINO. (Actually, I didn’t even know my father’s side was Catholic until we went to my grandmother’s funeral when I was about thirty.) But I was baptized because my mother wanted to keep my grandparents happy. And I went through confirmation, even though nobody really explained to me what it was – just stand here, walk this way, do that, and let’s get out of here. Even my stepfather, who was my “sponsor,” didn’t understand it and was never religous.

So we’re all still “non-practicing Catholics” in theory. I’m told that Jews are the same way, that if you’re born Jewish, you’re technically Jewish forever. It sort of reminds me of American citizenship. If you come to this country willingly, you have to study and pass a test, but if you’re born here, you don’t have to know anything.

Maybe Catholics should consider moving the confirmation age up to twenty or even thirty, instead of it being automatic. Just a suggestion.

Many parishes are moving the age up, just for the reason you have given here. My parish requires two years of confirmation classes, attendance at either Bible study or Lifegroup during that time, and an interview with both our priests at the end of two years.

Needless to say, my parish has one of the most active, devout, and knowledgeable youth groups in the diocese

 

[PaulDupre]

During the 14 years between leaving the LDS Church and coming back to the Catholic faith, one of my most formative stops was in wicca. I gravitated to wicca because of its ceremonial (liturgical) beauty (I was hungering for liturgy after 11 years in the sterile world of Mormonism) and the kindness of wicca practitioners - so different from the severe and judgmental Mormon culture that I had recently fled.

I eventually realized that the liturgy I hungered for was the Catholic mass. But I was grateful for the wise and lovely wiccan people I met during my years of association with wicca. Wicca, like every other religion, has its immature newbies who misinterpret and offend. But it also has its long-term and very wise adherents. I read many wiccan books, and was especially uplifted by the writings of Scott Cunningham. Wicca tends to be very female oriented and much of wiccan literature tends towards a radical feminism that I find foreign. Scott Cunningham’s books were very masculine and affirming of the equal dignity of men and women.

I had the opportunity to meet Scott Cunningham in 1991 ( 2 years prior to his death). I spoke with him at length over coffee and crumb cake. He told me “The important thing is to find out where you belong. Then get there and stay there.” I eventually discovered that the Catholic Church is where I belong. I got there and I am staying there. I think Scott would be pleased.

Paul

 

[Marc_Anthony]

So what? Not every religion (arrogantly) claims to spread "The Truth"™. Eps. neopagan religions don’t bother with that illusion.

If you don’t believe your religion is true, why on Earth are you a part of it?

 

[rwillenborg]

Whatever the timeline, the reasons for the gender disparity in Wicca and related paths is pretty obvious. They are religions which the divine feminine, the Goddess, is equal to her male counterpart, and in fact pre-eminent, first among equals. In traditional coven structures, women hold the real leadership role and can gain the kind of standing in the wider community as clergy on par with Catholic bishops.

But see that’s what surprises me. The Goddess is equal to the God in wicca. So, if people are looking for someone to identify with, and choose to do so based on gender, I would think it would appeal equally to men as to women, no?
I know it’s different for different covens, but my wiccan friends were always quick to tell me that there was an honored place for men in their covens, too. That they were regarded as equals.
Why would men shy away when they see women in leadership roles, and why would that cause women to gravitate towards it? That’s what I’m not getting.

 

[Shawn_Ravenfire]

If you don’t believe your religion is true, why on Earth are you a part of it?

He’s not. Look at his username again. “AnAtheist.”

 

[kenofken]

But see that’s what surprises me. The Goddess is equal to the God in wicca. So, if people are looking for someone to identify with, and choose to do so based on gender, I would think it would appeal equally to men as to women, no?
I know it’s different for different covens, but my wiccan friends were always quick to tell me that there was an honored place for men in their covens, too. That they were regarded as equals.
Why would men shy away when they see women in leadership roles, and why would that cause women to gravitate towards it? That’s what I’m not getting.

Women gravitate toward it because they will never be treated as second class citizens in Wicca, either in worldly coven roles or in the big picture of theology/cosmology. I add one qualifier to that, and that is that in the early days, 1950s, 60s, etc, it was in some ways male-dominated, or at least there were some male figures who liked to hog the limelight a bit (Alex Sanders etc, and others who proclaimed themselves “King of all Witches”
I don’t agree with the characterization that men nowadays “shy away” from Wicca. I think the disparity exists in part because WIcca and related paths call men and boys to a different understanding of masculinity, and one I would argue is more balanced. It is a vision of manliness which is very different than the typical action-movie portrayal and yet also different from the emasculated male we’ve all come to love to hate in the 90s and today.

There’s not as many role models for how men fit into Wicca. It takes a bit more self-inventory and creativity to envision oneself in these religions and to carve out a good role for ourselves. I myself struggled with how an educated, very much un-hippy guy in his mid-30s was to fit into Wicca. One of my role models was Kerr Cuhulain, then a detective with the Vancouver police and a martial arts enthusiast. I had the great fortune to meet him in person and I assure you there’s nothing flaky about this guy. I find that men who are willing to take on a bit of work to fit in are very much appreciated in many circles, and many groups are now closer to 50-50 in gender balance. I think the disparity varies also in the age groups. Maybe due to popular culture stereotypes, Wicca is a very natural draw for teen girls. Teen boys, not so much. Plenty of them might wear a pentacle around for effect, but I don’t think many of them are getting together with their guy friends in high school to do spell work. The guys who do come to the path in a serious way tend to do so maybe in their mid to late 20s and come with a bit more skepticism. Those who then join tend to stick with it.

 

[Noesis]

I had the opportunity to meet Scott Cunningham in 1991 ( 2 years prior to his death). I spoke with him at length over coffee and crumb cake. He told me “The important thing is to find out where you belong. Then get there and stay there.” I eventually discovered that the Catholic Church is where I belong. I got there and I am staying there. I think Scott would be pleased.

This is very fascinating and exciting!

I think that Cunningham’s advice to you is said in precisely the sort of spirit that attracts people to Pagan paths; and it is unfortunate that it is often overlooked, or even looked down upon.

In my opinion, paganism in all of its multifaceted forms comes first and foremost from the observation that there is a unique spiritual home for each individual person. Spirituality is the process of finding this home, and of living within it. How beautifully and simply Cunningham expressed this, as he did so many other things.

This thread is permeated with the idea that a natural progression towards a spiritual home, is a tendency that should be stifled in youth if they seem to be heading to a place which we might feel is not legitimate enough for them. Thankfully, you remind me that there are some who still will feel joy at a person finding their temple, even if this temple should be different from their own.

 

[rinnie]

Whatever the timeline, the reasons for the gender disparity in Wicca and related paths is pretty obvious. They are religions which the divine feminine, the Goddess, is equal to her male counterpart, and in fact pre-eminent, first among equals. In traditional coven structures, women hold the real leadership role and can gain the kind of standing in the wider community as clergy on par with Catholic bishops.

It’s also a draw for young women who have had negative experiences or perceptions about Christianity, including Catholicism but also many evangelical traditions. Whether those negative experiences are reflective of the true nature of those faiths is neither here nor there. My old journalism profs and public relations types always said “perception is reality.” As a male Wiccan who has been at it a few years and met a lot of people, I can tell you that even many Dianics are misunderstood. Most of them don’t hate men and are not as skewed toward female divinity as they might seem. Many do attend mixed-gender community rituals but want their own space where they can work with the feminine mysteries of life and death on a much deeper level. A growing number of men on these paths are also creating similar experiences for their own. I think it can be a very healthy thing.

I think much of what has gone wrong with our world today is the result of the de-valuing of female divinity and consciousness and the cultivation of a very limited and twisted sense of what masuclinity is about. If we’re to survive each other’s company and not turn the planet into a living hell, we need to find ways to redress that balance. Wicca has it’s solutions in that regard. Other faiths, including Catholicism, no doubt has different, but hopefully real solutions as well.

I guess that goes to show how many People have no idea of the Catholic faith. The Catholic faith have always admired and honored women. The biggest role model in the Catholic faith as a women is the Blessed Mother. And ask any Protestant they will agree with you on that The Church deeply loves and respects her for her Love for God.

She is always respected and held at the highest regard as the Mother as Christ. Best role model as a Mother and Women and faithfull follower of Christ you can get.

But for who is wondering here is how Christ refers to Women according to Catholic teaching.

In the beginning God created women from Man to compliment eachother and do the work of God. They were helpers to eachother.

In the N.T. God said that Men should love their wifes the way God loves his Church. Eph 5:28-29 I don’t think it could get any clearer then that.

 

[PaulDupre]

This is very fascinating and exciting!

I think that Cunningham’s advice to you is said in precisely the sort of spirit that attracts people to Pagan paths; and it is unfortunate that it is often overlooked, or even looked down upon.

In my opinion, paganism in all of its multifaceted forms comes first and foremost from the observation that there is a unique spiritual home for each individual person. Spirituality is the process of finding this home, and of living within it. How beautifully and simply Cunningham expressed this, as he did so many other things.

This thread is permeated with the idea that a natural progression towards a spiritual home, is a tendency that should be stifled in youth if they seem to be heading to a place which we might feel is not legitimate enough for them. Thankfully, you remind me that there are some who still will feel joy at a person finding their temple, even if this temple should be different from their own.

Nicely put, Noesis. Thank you.

Paul

 

[Marc_Anthony]

He’s not. Look at his username again. “AnAtheist.”

I know. I meant it rhetorically. Why would anybody be part of a religion they don’t believe is true?

 

[kenofken]

I know. I meant it rhetorically. Why would anybody be part of a religion they don’t believe is true?

Well let’s examine the short list of historical reasons: political power and appointments to high position, eligibility for marriage to access the same things. Business opportunity family tradition, access to education, the fear of being cast out from all family and tribal connections. Then there’s the time-honored lowest common denominator: an aversion to being slowly roasted to death by a gang of inquisitors for failing to play along with the religion in charge.

The subtext of this question seems to be aimed more at Wiccans, as in why would you belong to a faith that you don’t feel compelled to evangelize? Well, we know its true in the sense that our gods come to our rituals. We don’t have the arrogance of power or the insecurity to infer that therefore our truth must be THE only truth, and one which demands converting you or stamping out all other religions as heresy or flying planes into buildings etc. We know our way to be a valid path up the mountain, perhaps the only tenable one for US. For all we know or care, the Catholics, Muslims, atheists and Zoroastrians all have good highways too, and maybe even ones with cleaner rest stops…

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Well let’s examine the short list of historical reasons: political power and appointments to high position, eligibility for marriage to access the same things. Business opportunity family tradition, access to education, the fear of being cast out from all family and tribal connections. Then there’s the time-honored lowest common denominator: an aversion to being slowly roasted to death by a gang of inquisitors for failing to play along with the religion in charge.

Ignoring the historically innaccurate inquisitors comment (not quite so uncomplicated)-

Of course you CAN belong to a religion for all those reasons. But I was talking about teens I know in 21st century America who choos Wicca because it “feels” right. They don’t put real stock into how True it is or isn’t. The TRUTH is that a feeling proves nothing one way or the other. It’s only a feeling.

For a religion that is supposed to be nonjudgemental, you made a very judgemental post there.

 

[AnAtheist]

Why would anybody be part of a religion they don’t believe is true?

The term religion has a slightly different meaning for pagans than for monotheists. A specific religion is defined by its rituals and myths and not by true or false gods. For a pagan there are no false gods, different gods from other religions are either simply other gods or their own gods in a different fashion. See for example the interpretatio Romana - the Romans identified gods from other religions with thier own, like the Celtic Sulis with the Roman Minerva, or the Germanic Wodan with Mercurius.
So there is no distinction between true and false religions, just cultural differences.

 

[Shawn_Ravenfire]

Of course you CAN belong to a religion for all those reasons. But I was talking about teens I know in 21st century America who choos Wicca because it “feels” right. They don’t put real stock into how True it is or isn’t. The TRUTH is that a feeling proves nothing one way or the other. It’s only a feeling.

Of course, ALL religious faith is based on a feeling. If we based our beliefs on what is provable in the intellectual sense, everyone in the world would be an agnostic.

But as far as teens go, you are right. A lot of them don’t have much faith in the gods. They just jump on board to be with their friends, or to affiliate themselves with making what looks to them like a liberal social statement. But the ones who stick with it for a long time are the ones who truly believe in it.

Just like the Catholic religion has a lot of CINOs, we’ve got a lot of WINOs.