Wicca, Shamanism, Animism...

[BlessedBe13]

brotherhrolf:

Yes. Let’s say I believe H. P. Lovecraft was right and I decide that Cthulhuism is the way to go.

Have fun with it. Won’t really affect me in the least. If it helps you to live a better life and be a better person, then maybe it’s not all that bad.

Does this make it an authentic religion?

It could be (perhaps if you elaborated more). I forget what we discussed in my World Religions class about what actually makes a religion, so I suppose if it fell around those guidelines it could be. However if it was more of a role-playing sort of thing, that’s what I would consider it. If it was used to exploit it’s members for the better of the founder, I would consider it a cult.

Christianity wasn’t “invented”.

Yes it was. All religions were created at some point.

It didn’t spring from the mind of Gardner, Hrolf, or Hubbard.

No, it sprang from the minds of Jesus and his followers.

Jesus Christ was an historical figure who lived, breathed and walked this Earth.

So was Gardner.

He is not the invention of a late Victorian Englishman.

No, he lived much earlier than that. But Christianity was new at some point too, so it really doesn’t make much difference.

 

[return2truth]

BlessedBe13:

. Yes it was. All religions were created at some point.

Chistianity was not created by man. It was revealed by God the Son and hinted upon throughout earlier times by God the Holy Spirit. Of course this is a matter of faith.

I find little value in religious systems that admit they are the inventions of man or are later unequivocally proven to be. There are those who believe their gods are archetypical anthropomorphic concepts who have no real identity outside of makind’s ability to imagine them. What’s the point in revering them? They really aren’t beings who care about the prayers of their supplicants, nor can they be appealed to provide their worshipers with any special boons. Ultimately, these people are really just worshiping themselves in a cyclical kind of way. Just be practitioners of a left-hand path system and be done with it.

If a god exists, then he created the rules. He alone can communicate or reveal these to us and this must be done in a direct and human-comprehensible way; not by human guesswork, interpretation or inference. The ultimate truth of the universe must be true for all people or else it simply doesn’t exist.

As humans with freewill, we may pick and choose what elements of the truth we wish to accept, but the parts that we ignore are not rendered irrelevant. In the end, how we lived our lives will be compared against how well we reflected that light of ultimate divine truth. I pray for each of us that when that day comes we may all shine with the light of a thousand suns.

 

[Ahimsa]

Subrosa:

Hi Ahimsa -

It seems that you have missed the point completely. In the scenario I created in my last post, Hitler would be the egocentric person inflicting his will on others. The U.S. Army would be the liberators. Do you believe that they landed on Normandy beach without the expressed will of the French?

Maybe I should have elaborated a bit more. “When someone uses magic for overcoming someone elses will, whether for good or ill, is an overtly evil thing.” I won’t change my position. Magic is forbidden by the First Commandment. I am supported by the Catholic Church catechism:

Hi Subrosa,

Whether we were the liberators or not, whether many French supported us or not, we still imposed our will upon Hitler. Our will was to defeat Hitler (and, thus, Tojo). And I for one am glad we did so. I see nothing wrong with imposing will upon those who do evil.

If you want to argue that imposing will via magick is evil, then that’s answered in the catechism.

 

[Ahimsa]

Liberian:

No. There is a world of difference between thwarting someone’s will (which is what the US did to Hitler) and monkeying with the person’s will (which is what the magic spells supposedly do). The former recognizes that the person has made a mistake (or worse) and takes steps to make sure that the person does not accomplish what he has set out to do. The latter removes the person’s free will and thus dehumanizes the person. So yes, overcoming someone’s will in the sense that a magic spell supposedly does is overtly evil, even if you are trying to get the person to do something good. The end does not justify the means.

• Liberian

Hi Liberian,

Could you explain more the difference between “thwarting” someone’s will and “monkeying around” with someone’s will?

 

[silverwings_88]

Merry Meet!

I was a Wiccan, and out of my short life, it was the strongest influence in my spiritual life. Wicca was the only other religion for me that believed in a loving Deity, unlike my previous practices of New Age and Buddhism.

It gave me a sense of community with Nature; I still remember casting a spell on the four winds outside at night to bring me guidance and developing my magickal self through the aid of a chosen ‘wind.’

It gave me the sacredness of life, and that I could be in communion with the Goddess.

That was, until a Christian friend brought me to Pentecostal worship, lol…

Nonjudgementally, without Wicca, I don’t know how much spirituality and a belief in God I would have now. Now, I live in the blessed Truth of Jesus Christ

Blessed Be! (The Wiccan farewell) and Pax Vobiscum!

 

[return2truth]

BlessedBe13:

That is actually not the point of Wicca. Wicca is a religion, witchcraft/spellcasting is a practice not associated with any particular religion. Some Wiccans may practice magic, but not all do. Wiccans worship/honor a God and Goddess, and some *may *call upon elementals for spells, but not all Wiccans practice magic. Wiccans also do not demand anything from God, Goddess, nature, etc. Another important belief in Wicca is to work with nature and/or deity, not to try to control it or demand anything.

You are right that none of the 13 Principals of Wiccan Belief list magic as a required practice, but in 12 years of occult studies, I have yet to meet a single wicca that didn’t cast spells or didn’t view such practices as being one of the reasons they were drawn to it in the first place. I have never met a wicca that simply prayed for what they wanted.

As far as making a demand of the gods, I never suggested that they did. I did mean that they demand that the very nature of reality to change in accordance with their will as empowered by their gods. The idea that such changes should only come to pass if it is the will of their gods is a foreign concept in Wicca whether such request are in the form of spells or prayers. If it is true that they only wish to work with nature then they might as well not bother as nature will ultimately unfold as it should. The fact that a wicca sees something that should be different implies they are not happy with the natural state.

Granted a wicca could wish to invoke the divine in order to “repair” nature of defects he or she might perceive to exist in it such as pollution or drought. These are noble concerns and, in these cases, I applaud their intentions but I am critical of their methods.

 

[bluezone7]

Milliardo:

Well, those sort of stuff. How many here have dabbled in these things, and how did you eventually quit from it? I was into Wicca a few years back. Just like most here who went into it probably, it was more out of curiousity than actually being convinced it’s the “true path”. I was never in a coven or such; for those familiar with the terms, I was a solitary practitioner. Maybe it was by God’s grace I never really found a coven or a group who practiced it here, or else it might have been more difficult to walk away from it. I could never reconcile Wicca with my Christian Faith; it just wasn’t right. I never felt it right. Somehow I feel I was tapping into something evil, something that might take hold of me before long and totally possess me. I do not want that. So I stopped before it completely overwhelmed me. Of course Wiccans might tell you it’s not evil, that they don’t do the rituals and the magic for evil. But I can’t get that out of my mind: the strangeness of it all, the use of such things as wands and the magic circle and all those things. It’s not right.

First of all … Wicca is not the same thing as Shamanism or Animism. Wicca is fairly new and has no real original roots as compared to Shamanism or Animism. Just like Voodoo or Odinism (ancient Norse religions) is not the same thing as Devil Worship! The details are what count. Shamanism, Animism, and other comparable religions are based on old tribal/ethnic religions … they are non-Christian but I would not call them or it’s practitioners evil! I would just call these religions outer darkness. Darkness outside the light of the belief in one true God. Darkness from the belief in Christianity. Darkness from the reality of Catholicism the true Church. Now when many Christians or believers in the one God religions become involved in such religions as Shamanism, Animism, or Wicca, etc especially in their teens, 20’s, and early 30’s it may be a form of youthful rebellion or curiosity, which is evil. People who were raised with these belief systems are not necessarily evil but they do need to hear about the one true God and see us believers set the Christian example. :tsktsk:

 

[Subrosa]

BlessedBe13:

Yes it was. All religions were. Even if some religions were created by divine inspiration, they were all created by men.

Hi BB13!

If you think about it, Christianity was created by Jesus. Jesus is a deity: He is God.

The bible is inspired, so passages such as these have as thier author God Himself:

Colossians 2- (Paul speaking)
*8 **See to it that no one captivate you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to the elemental powers of the world and not according to Christ. *
*9 *For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily.
and:

*Matthew 16 - (Jesus speaking)
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Given the Holy inspiration of the bible, these passages indicate that Jesus began the church, and Jesus is God, therefore God started the church.

Of course this is a Christian point of view, and you won’t necessarilly agree with it, I understand.

But, I hope you come to know this as the truth.

Subrosa

---

 

[brotherhrolf]

Blessed be: Cthulhu is not happy! Beware the shoggoths!

(OK I’m being facetious). You’re still missing my point. Christianity wasn’t invented. It occurred. I’m not going to get into the details but if you’ll PM me I’ll respond about my two acquaintances and their experience with Celtic and Norse wiccanism.

 

[BlessedBe13]

return2truth:

Chistianity was not created by man. It was revealed by God the Son and hinted upon throughout earlier times by God the Holy Spirit. Of course this is a matter of faith.

Key word being - Faith. Christians believe that Jesus was God and that Christianity is the only true way. That is part of their faith. But that does not necessarily make it so. Christianity was still created at some point and was done so by man - divine inspiration or not.

I find little value in religious systems that admit they are the inventions of man or are later unequivocally proven to be.

Religion is man’s way of connecting with the Divine. Some may have had divine inspiration, some may have not. If man finds a religion that helps him to connect with the Divine and makes him/her a better person, who is anyone to call them wrong.

They really aren’t beings who care about the prayers of their supplicants, nor can they be appealed to provide their worshipers with any special boons. Ultimately, these people are really just worshiping themselves in a cyclical kind of way.

All a matter of opinion.

Just be practitioners of a left-hand path system and be done with it.

I’m assuming you are referring to Satanism here. While I have read about it, it is the only religion (that I can think of right now) that revolves essentially around worship of the self (rather than some evil deity) and I have no desire for that.

If a god exists, then he created the rules. He alone can communicate or reveal these to us and this must be done in a direct and human-comprehensible way; not by human guesswork, interpretation or inference. The ultimate truth of the universe must be true for all people or else it simply doesn’t exist.

This may be true, but does not mean that Christianity has it right either. Just because a religion claims to be the only true religion created by “God” does not make it so. It is still a matter of faith.

 

[BlessedBe13]

return2truth:

You are right that none of the 13 Principals of Wiccan Belief list magic as a required practice, but in 12 years of occult studies, I have yet to meet a single wicca that didn’t cast spells or didn’t view such practices as being one of the reasons they were drawn to it in the first place.

Head over to the message boards at wicca.com. Several of the devout Wiccans there do not practice magic. While I personally have an interest in witchcraft, that is not what led me to Wicca. Although Wicca is accepting of witchcraft, I did not get drawn to Wicca for that purpose, as I could have easily just studied and practiced witchcraft without it.

I have never met a wicca that simply prayed for what they wanted.

I do.

I did mean that they demand that the very nature of reality to change in accordance with their will as empowered by their gods.

They do not do that either. One cannot demand nature or reality to change. One can work with nature and pray to deity to influence change in one’s life, but if something not meant to happen all the spellwork and prayer is not going to do anything.

The idea that such changes should only come to pass if it is the will of their gods is a foreign concept in Wicca whether such request are in the form of spells or prayers.The fact that a wicca sees something that should be different implies they are not happy with the natural state.

That is also completely untrue (see above paragraph)

 

[BlessedBe13]

Subrosa:

Hi BB13!

If you think about it, Christianity was created by Jesus. Jesus is a deity: He is God.

For Christians he is. But that does not necessarily make it true.

The bible is inspired, so passages such as these have as thier author God Himself

The Bible, while may have been partially divinly inspired was also written by man. Man who could change, add, reword whatever he chose and claim that is was spoken by God, in order to promote his beliefs.

 

[BlessedBe13]

brotherhrolf:

Blessed be: Cthulhu is not happy! Beware the shoggoths!

You’re still missing my point. Christianity wasn’t invented. It occurred.

I understand where you are coming from (I think), but still believe that it is a matter of faith as to whether Jesus really was God and that Christianity is the only true religion given to man by God. The Bible was written by man several years after Jesus’ death, and the men who wrote it could have written whatever they wanted. Writing that their beliefs were handed to them by God himself would make the religion sound appealing (or as many Jews saw/see it - as blasphemous).

As I’ve stated before, I believe that if a religion helps one to connect with Divinity and helps to make them a bettet person on this earth, that is a good thing. Humans are so diverse that not everyone is going to view or be able to connect with Divinity in the same way, and I believe that if we were truly created by an all-loving Creator, he/she/it would know and be understanding of that.

While “spiritual, but not religious” seems to be a catchphrase thrown around a lot these days, I have spoken with people who do fit this description and while they do believe in/honor some sort of deity/divinity, they do not adhere to any particular religion and I believe that this is fine as well.

I have read about Satanism, and while I do not agree with some of their teachings/philosophies on life and it is not a path I would choose as it does revolve around worship of the self, I respect their right to practice as they choose as well.

Just curious as to what you meant by Christianity just “occurring”. Do you mean by God sending his Son (Jesus) to Earth, or otherwise?

 

[BlestOne]

Wicca…nope never got into it but it ruined my marriage…My ex thinks he is a “high priest” in the pagan worshipping community. I can tell you the discrepancies of raising children Catholic with a father that knew better than to tell his children about his religion but did it to spite me…ok here goes:
Early in our separation my ex called and I asked him to speak to our oldest about his report card. He did terrible in spelling I told him. So he gets on the phone with my son and says “That’s what god made spell checkers for, don’t worry about it” So my very sweet evangelizing son asked “which one of your 400 and some gods is in charge of spelling daddy” I laughed so hard I cried…
Another time my ex insisted on taking the kids to the 4th of july carnival that I always took them to. The same son said “dad, I want to introduce you to my best friends dad” My ex thought that he was something special since his son was introducing him to a friends dad until… the other dad held out his hand and said, “Nice to meet you I am Rev Freeman” and shook his hand off…that time I almost tinkled myself I was laughing so hard. Later I learned that my son had set the whole thing up with the Methodist pastor when he came over to me laughing and telling me what a great son I had and told me the story.

Those are the only funny things…the rest is sad. He has been a terrible father to his children because his pagan friends were more important to the point that I was very happy when he lost interest in seeing his children. His Wiccan and pagan friends have helped him to get away with not paying child support for several years now by hiring him under the table to make things like candles and “flying ointment” for them, they hid him out when Child support enforcement came looking for him and helped him move across state … all to get out of paying child support.

 

[adstrinity]

Subrosa:

The thing that strikes me is that magic is about applying one’s own will over another. Isn’t this what happens when a spell is cast? It might be a spell of love, for instance. But, would that person otherwise fall in love with the person who asked for the spell? It should be left up to the same forces everyone else is subject to, don’t you think? Then again, is casting a spell of love an act of love? Hardly! Love allows for and nurtures anothers freedom. Magic removes it.

Nevermind a destructive spell.

Overcoming someone elses will, whether for good or ill, is an overtly evil thing. Magic is egocentric and at no time can result in good. Magic cannot be of God.

Subrosa

Yes, but, one of the things that TRUE Wiccans believe (I have known a few) is be careful because whatever harm or good you perform on somebody, it will come back on you three-fold. I don’t practice it, never really have, never ever WILL, BUT, this does seem to be a good bit of moral advice here…but, I agree with you on the whole not real love thing and trying to outdo God.

 

[deb1]

BlessedBe13:

I understand where you are coming from (I think), but still believe that it is a matter of faith as to whether Jesus really was God and that Christianity is the only true religion given to man by God

The Bible was written by man several years after Jesus’ death, and the men who wrote it could have written whatever they wanted. Writing that their beliefs were handed to them by God himself would make the religion sound appealing (or as many Jews saw/see it - as blasphemous). As I’ve stated before, I believe that if a religion helps one to connect with Divinity and helps to make them a bettet person on this earth, that is a good thing. Humans are so diverse that not everyone is going to view or be able to connect with Divinity in the same way, and I believe that if we were truly created by an all-loving Creator, he/she/it would know and be understanding of that. While “spiritual, but not religious” seems to be a catchphrase thrown around a lot these days, I have spoken with people who do fit this description and while they do believe in/honor some sort of deity/divinity, they do not adhere to any particular religion and I believe that this is fine as well. I have read about Satanism, and while I do not agree with some of their teachings/philosophies on life and it is not a path I would choose as it does revolve around worship of the self, I respect their right to practice as they choose as well. Just curious as to what you meant by Christianity just “occurring”. Do you mean by God sending his Son (Jesus) to Earth, or otherwise?

 

[deb1]

The Bible was written by man several years after Jesus’ death, and the men who wrote it could have written whatever they wanted.
[/quote]

Actually, all the New Testament was written withen a generation of Christ’s death by those who knew him. Or in the case of Luke, those who interviewed his followers. What many people get confused with, is the fact that the bible was not **compiled **until three hundred years later. It was the Catholic church that decided which books were inspired and which weren’t. There are many much more knowledgable people on this board who can post some relevant links. The history of the bible and the difference between the Catholic and Protestant view of the bible is very interesting.

]

 

[SPOKENWORD]

BlessedBe13:

Sorry. Scare tactics don’t work on me.

Blessedbe, There are souls in Hell crying out with this same comment you made. Again hell is for those who reject Gods mercy,and is for all eternity. One day when you die you will face the Almighty God for judgement[whether you believe it or not doesn,t matter for it will take place]. First of all that is not my intent to instill fear in you. I wanted to give you a true picture what the Word of God says about Hell. You are being decieved by your Wiccan god who has promised you summerland when the truth is that hell is summerland. The devil is a LIAR,DECIEVER, and a THIEF. God is a just and forgiving God to those who humble themself and admitt they are sinners and in need of a Savior. There will be no fornicators,liars,adulterers,thieves, idolaters, drunkards, ect. entering into the kingdom of heaven. I can,t really believe deep down inside of your soul that this doesn,t concern you. Are you being truthful,or are you fooling yourself. Somethink to think about Blessedbe.

 

[Eden]

I was watching a program on EWTN about the rosary. The priest hosting the show said that he was once on a plane with Archbishop Fulton Sheen and they were seated next to a young woman. The archbishop told the flight attendant that he would not be having lunch because he was fasting (for Lent). The woman sitting next to him said, “I’m fasting, too.” When the archbishop said, “Oh, are you Catholic, too?” The woman said, “No, I’m Wiccan and I’m fasting for abortion.” Now, was this woman just trying to shock an old archbishop or do some Wiccans actually fast as a sacrifice so that evil will occur?

 

[Ahimsa]

Eden:

I was watching a program on EWTN about the rosary. The priest hosting the show said that he was once on a plane with Archbishop Fulton Sheen and they were seated next to a young woman. The archbishop told the flight attendant that he would not be having lunch because he was fasting (for Lent). The woman sitting next to him said, “I’m fasting, too.” When the archbishop said, “Oh, are you Catholic, too?” The woman said, “No, I’m Wiccan and I’m fasting for abortion.” Now, was this woman just trying to shock an old archbishop or do some Wiccans actually fast as a sacrifice so that evil will occur?

There are Wiccans who recognize the damage that abortion causes, and who therefore perform Wiccan healing rituals accordingly. Maybe this Wiccan was fasting for healing. You never know.