Wicca, Shamanism, Animism...

[SPOKENWORD]

Eden:

I was watching a program on EWTN about the rosary. The priest hosting the show said that he was once on a plane with Archbishop Fulton Sheen and they were seated next to a young woman. The archbishop told the flight attendant that he would not be having lunch because he was fasting (for Lent). The woman sitting next to him said, “I’m fasting, too.” When the archbishop said, “Oh, are you Catholic, too?” The woman said, “No, I’m Wiccan and I’m fasting for abortion.” Now, was this woman just trying to shock an old archbishop or do some Wiccans actually fast as a sacrifice so that evil will occur?

I thought when one is fasting that it should be kept silent according to scripture. Two wrongs dont make a right.

 

[Eden]

That is always a possibility but the understanding of the audience was an audible gasp. The context presented by the priest was that she was fasting for evil purposes. Unfortunately, I can’t remember the exact quote in which he conveyed that idea.

 

[Eden]

SPOKENWORD:

I thought when one is fasting that it should be kept silent according to scripture. Two wrongs dont make a right.

I don’t understand what you are saying. Can you please be more specific?

 

[BlessedBe13]

SPOKENWORD:

Scare Tactics

Again, this says nothing. You (or your God) threaten me with hell. For some reason you are discussing God (Wiccan) and then refer to him as Satan. The two are unrelated. Try to keep that in mind next time. While I may not agree with what other people post here, I at least respect the fact that they (for the most part) explain their beliefs well and with little to no threats of hell. However, your posts seem to consist mainly of two points: 1) Follow Jesus or go to hell. 2) The deities I worship are either Satan or made up.

That doesn’t really do much to enlighten me on your faith and, as I said, doesn’t scare me into following your faith either. If I based my opinion of Christianity on your posts alone, I would honestly have a very negative opinion of it. However, I do know better than that.

 

[BlessedBe13]

Eden:

Now, was this woman just trying to shock an old archbishop or do some Wiccans actually fast as a sacrifice so that evil will occur?

Wiccan practices are against causing harm so no true Wiccan would fast so that some time of evil or harm would occur.

As Ahimsa said, if this woman was truly a Wiccan, perhaps she was fasting for healing, rather than to support abortion.

Or as you said, perhaps it was just some woman trying to shock the archbishop.

 

[Subrosa]

Hi BB13! You raised some issues that I think need some clarification. Here’s my two cents…

BlessedBe13:

You (or your God) threaten me with hell.

There is no threat, implied or imposed. Hell is simply the consequence of rejecting God. Or, put another way, if you choose to disassociate yourself with God, then you will get your wish. The chief punishment of Hell is seperation from God and His love, which is the choice of the person, not God. God predestines no one to go to Hell, or Heaven for that matter. It is simply your choice, which you are free to choose.

For some reason you are discussing God (Wiccan) and then refer to him as Satan. The two are unrelated. Try to keep that in mind next time.

and

While I may not agree with what other people post here, I at least respect the fact that they (for the most part) explain their beliefs well and with little to no threats of hell. However, your posts seem to consist mainly of two points: 1) Follow Jesus or go to hell. 2) The deities I worship are either Satan or made up.

I understand your position. I don’t think that people here posting are trying to insult you or detract anything from your beliefs. This is simply a part of the religion which teaches that there is only God, Satan is His emeny, and all other gods are false. Therefore, associating your Wiccan god with Satan is simply a part of the religion.

But, in deference to you, I agree that you have a right to practice your religion. I have a friend who is a Helenist -Zeus, Athena, Apollo, etc,- we have excited conversations, and we remain friends.

That doesn’t really do much to enlighten me on your faith and, as I said, doesn’t scare me into following your faith either. If I based my opinion of Christianity on your posts alone, I would honestly have a very negative opinion of it.

It is a good thing to debate, even in the face of opposition. It serves to enlighten and teach. Reading your posts, for instance, I am learning about Wicca through you. Isn’t that a good thing?

However, I do know better than that.

I am curious? What is it that you know better? Could you elaborate a bit? It would be appreciated.

Subrosa

 

[Subrosa]

BlestOne:

Those are the only funny things…the rest is sad. He has been a terrible father to his children because his pagan friends were more important to the point that I was very happy when he lost interest in seeing his children. His Wiccan and pagan friends have helped him to get away with not paying child support for several years now by hiring him under the table to make things like candles and “flying ointment” for them, they hid him out when Child support enforcement came looking for him and helped him move across state … all to get out of paying child support.

This will catch up with him. Have no doubt about it. It will catch up with him.

Subrosa

 

[cheese_sdc]

Hello,

Just thought I’d chime in for a minute with a question:

Have we, as catholics, ever considered our own cupability in people leaving the Church?
How many people are there out there who we have run out of the Church because of our own hypocrisy? How many teenagers look at the adults in the parish think: “Why should I be like him? I’ve never seen him smile during Mass?” or “That person takes communion but is cheating on his wife”. No wonder the teenagers are looking for something else and until we, the supposed adults of the Church, start being examples they will continue to find fulfillment elsewhere.

There is a much passed around story that a person asked Ghandi “Why is it that you never became a christian?” His response: “I never met one I wanted to be like.” That pretty much says it all.

 

[dumspirospero]

Do you believe your progressive views will fill the pews again?

cheese_sdc:

Hello,

Just thought I’d chime in for a minute with a question:

Have we, as catholics, ever considered our own cupability in people leaving the Church?
How many people are there out there who we have run out of the Church because of our own hypocrisy? How many teenagers look at the adults in the parish think: “Why should I be like him? I’ve never seen him smile during Mass?” or “That person takes communion but is cheating on his wife”. No wonder the teenagers are looking for something else and until we, the supposed adults of the Church, start being examples they will continue to find fulfillment elsewhere.

There is a much passed around story that a person asked Ghandi “Why is it that you never became a christian?” His response: “I never met one I wanted to be like.” That pretty much says it all.

 

[cheese_sdc]

“Do you believe your progressive views will fill the pews again?”

Hey! That’s great! The first time some one suggests that the problem might be with us Catholics you go on the attack.

This is one of the problems that I see in the Church today… it is the “city on the hill” syndrome - the idea that We Are Right, They Are Wrong, and All Must Accept It.

The Church isn’t perfect, and invective won’t change that.

edited to remove alot of sarcasm - nobody’s perfect

 

[dumspirospero]

Yeah…I get it…answer the question without answering it…Is it so hard to answer my question or what? I am sorry…THE CHURCH IS PERFECT…Christ would not have allowed for his Church to not have been perfect…quit avoiding the questions.

“Do you believe your progressive views will fill the pews again?”

Hey! That’s great! The first time some one suggests that the problem might be with us Catholics you go on the attack.

This is one of the problems that I see in the Church today… it is the “city on the hill” syndrome - the idea that We Are Right, They Are Wrong, and All Must Accept It.

The Church isn’t perfect, and invective won’t change that.

edited to remove alot of sarcasm - nobody’s perfect

 

[cheddarsox]

Ha,ha, ha,

I didn’t think that cheese pointing out that hypocrisy and dourness were unattractive and unbecoming to the church would be considered “progressive ideas”. I guess those things are so entrenched now that they are seen as part of sacred tradition. LOL.

I have stayed out of this conversation until now because Wicca and the others mentioned on this thread are not my traditions. I am considered pagan by many (and probably by most Catholics) but I do not practice magic or spells,nor am I a shaman or an animist. Blessedbe has been doing a great and level-headed job of responding, and I wanted to let her know she isn’t alone.

I expect that one thing we can agree on is that it makes no sense to judge a faith, any faith on the worst behavior of any of its practitioners. For every naughty Wicca you can point to, I can point to a naughty Catholic.

I think that is the point Blessedbe was making when she posted that she knew better than to jugde Christianity by the bad behavior and rudeness of some of its followers.

Telling non-Catholics, however kindly, that they are worshipping Satan and going to hell is generally not effective because they know they are NOT worshipping Satan, and they don’t believe in hell.

If I told you there was no afterlife, probably wouldn’t phase you, because you “know” it is not true. When other Christians tell you Catholics are going to hell and not true Christians, you don’t throw yourselves down in despair…because you “know” it is not true.

I am trying to explain the perspective and why your insistence on us going to hell have little affect.

I was Catholic for the first 18 years of my life. In fact I seriously considered, in fact persued, joining a convent. I am a very spiritual person and spend a great deal of my time and energy involved in spiritual persuits. But, as they say, the devil is in the details. I loved God, but some way twisted cannon cast serious doubts on the faith. I did not leave Catholicism because it was “hard”. In fact, that was one of the strong points for me. I see the value in discipline, I was not afraid or turned off by the requirements of the faith. I was turned off by the smallness of heart of the God presented to the uninitiated. Certainly many saints and mystics have experienced the hugeness of God, understand the utter limitlessness of the omnipotent one. Unfortunately, this is often buried under tons of details, so the ordinary practitioner gets all the judgement of the faith, and experiences so little of the grandeur of God.

cheddar

 

[deb1]

cheddarsox:

Ha,ha, ha,

I didn’t think that cheese pointing out that hypocrisy and dourness were unattractive and unbecoming to the church would be considered “progressive ideas”. I guess those things are so entrenched now that they are seen as part of sacred tradition. LOL.

I have stayed out of this conversation until now because Wicca and the others mentioned on this thread are not my traditions. I am considered pagan by many (and probably by most Catholics) but I do not practice magic or spells,nor am I a shaman or an animist. Blessedbe has been doing a great and level-headed job of responding, and I wanted to let her know she isn’t alone.

I expect that one thing we can agree on is that it makes no sense to judge a faith, any faith on the worst behavior of any of its practitioners. For every naughty Wicca you can point to, I can point to a naughty Catholic.

I think that is the point Blessedbe was making when she posted that she knew better than to jugde Christianity by the bad behavior and rudeness of some of its followers.

Telling non-Catholics, however kindly, that they are worshipping Satan and going to hell is generally not effective because they know they are NOT worshipping Satan, and they don’t believe in hell.

If I told you there was no afterlife, probably wouldn’t phase you, because you “know” it is not true. When other Christians tell you Catholics are going to hell and not true Christians, you don’t throw yourselves down in despair…because you “know” it is not true.

I am trying to explain the perspective and why your insistence on us going to hell have little affect.

I was Catholic for the first 18 years of my life. In fact I seriously considered, in fact persued, joining a convent. I am a very spiritual person and spend a great deal of my time and energy involved in spiritual persuits. But, as they say, the devil is in the details. I loved God, but some way twisted cannon cast serious doubts on the faith. I did not leave Catholicism because it was “hard”. In fact, that was one of the strong points for me. I see the value in discipline, I was not afraid or turned off by the requirements of the faith. I was turned off by the smallness of heart of the God presented to the uninitiated. Certainly many saints and mystics have experienced the hugeness of God, understand the utter limitlessness of the omnipotent one. Unfortunately, this is often buried under tons of details, so the ordinary practitioner gets all the judgement of the faith, and experiences so little of the grandeur of God.

cheddar

Hello Cheddar,

Between the ages of 16 and 18, I wanted to join the Catholic church and like you, I considered joining a convent. Because my faith was emotional not logical-yet-I couldn’t answer all the questions that my Protestant mother and Protestant friends threw at me. The result was that I lost my faith and was a seeker for several years-twenty to be exact. I used to tell my friends that I was happy but not content.

Coming from outside the Catholic church, I can only give you my personal observances. I like the solemn nature of the Catholic service. We are there because we believe that Jesus is literally in the Eucharist. People are often preparing to recieve communion during service and that is why they might not always be very friendly to you. I should add that I am in a Church that is located in the South and Southerns tend to pride themselves on friendliness. The members of my church tend to be very friendly after the service, but I think that this is a result of location and culture.

Don’t worry, I am not going to tell you that you are going to Hell or are worshipping Satan. The reason that I don’t do this is that I doubt that it is very conducive to a meaningful dialog to do so. I can remember others doing this to me and not only did I resent it but I immediatly shut down to anything else they had to say-even if they were the most eloquent, brilliant speakers or even if they were correct.

One thing more, you commented on the unfriendliness of those in the church. What was your response? Did you try and change the situation? Even small gestures like going out of your way to greet new visitors after church or offering to drive the elderly to church can help open people up to you. I am very shy myself so I understand how difficult it is to reach out to others, but it is so worthwhile.

 

[cheese_sdc]

“Do you believe your progressive views will fill the pews again?”

I think that love of God will fill pews. And in most of the parishes I have been in, the pews are pretty filled.

Cheddar:

Thanks for telling your story. It tells volumes about where we need to be as a Church.

 

[Liberian]

Ahimsa:

Hi Liberian,

Could you explain more the difference between “thwarting” someone’s will and “monkeying around” with someone’s will?

Thwarting someone’s will involves arranging the external circumstances so that what the person wants to happen does not happen. Monkeying around with someone’s will–which is distinct from persuading him to change his mind–involves overriding his exercise of his free will. I don’t have any concrete examples from the real world; the closest that I can come is the brainwashing of US prisoners of war by the North Koreans in the Korean war.

• Liberian

 

[Wolfsrain]

I understand this thread to be rather outdated, but having read it I wish to bring it up again…please keep in mind that other than the information regarding abortion, most of what I write here is of my own valid opinion (same as anyone else’s valid opinion) and that I do not wish to offend anyone, no matter what his or her faith or practices may be. I think it is possible for most here to regard other people’s posts as adults should, and civil discussion should be met regardless of beliefs. That having been said.

In regards to abortion and the Wiccan woman fasting, it has very little to do with healing or preparing for an evil act. Your opinions on abortion may vary -I myself do not enjoy the thought of another life not given a chance, and yet at the same time I find it incredibly selfish to keep a child so that you may not be damned when you know very well that the child will not be cared for properly because one sees it as evil and fears damnation; even animals (who do not have the choice of abortion available to them,) will end a young one’s life if they sense it will not survive. I am well aware that we are not animals and that we have the power to reason, and such. I’m just saying… -However, views aside, I’m not here to discuss views on abortion despite my tiny “rant,” I find it important, as intelligent human beings with the power to reason that we educate ourselves fully before batting around ideas as to why a person would do such a thing.

The woman did not say, “No, I’m a Wiccan and I am fasting for an abortion,” to get a rise out of the poor soul. She was asked if she was a Catholic. She answered honestly, that no, she was indeed Wiccan. You may see the abortion as a wrong choice depending on where your opinions fall, but the fasting had absolutely nothing to do with her religion or shock value. When one undergoes an abortion, one is expected, in fact required to fast beforehand. As with most any operation it is necessary to fast six hours before the procedure. Because most women prefer general anaesthetic, which induces utter unconsciousness, as such there is a danger of choking if fasting isn’t properly undertaken beforehand.

That aside. BlessedBe is wise to not disregard opinions and push her beliefs upon others and instead inform those who have been grossly misinformed so that others may not judge what they do not understand so harshly…what sound of mind human being wants to be pushed upon? Though I only see one example of such rudeness, she should be granted the same respect. I’m glad to see it was given by most…even though this thread is…what? four years old at most?