Wicca, the rest of the story

[Benadam]

brotherhrolf:

Dawn: Given that Caesar destroyed the druidical priesthood at Anglesey; given that St. Patrick took care of the druidical priesthood in Ireland; given that the Anglo-Saxons converted; given that the Norse converted…and so on and so forth…do you have evidence of a continuous existing pagan religion in Western Civilization? As an anthropologist I would be most interested to be able to follow this religion through western history.

Brotherhrolf,

Heathen Dawn offers alot of information in regards to that very question on his homepage. He explains his own conclusions from research he’s done and provides a number of online links as well.

Back when I practiced Wicca the fact that it was a modern rendition didn’t hinder the belief that it was the awakening of the most ancient religion. It seems that they are more intellectually honest now 15 years later.

 

[Ahimsa]

I’m not a Wiccan – my spiritual influences come further East. But I think that to say that Wicca is simply and merely a “new, 20th-century religion” ignores many things we know about how Wicca developed. First, it ignores the fact that Crowley and Gardner were both inspired and took ideas and practices from the Dharmic and Yogic paths of India. Insofar as Wicca continues this Dharmic/Yogic thread, Wicca could be looked at as a Western formulation of millennia-old Asian traditions. This is not to say that Wicca is merely or predominately Dharmic/Yogic-based, but the influence is certainly there – even the “Horned God” is not limited to pre-Christian Europe and has analogies in India, in the form of “Pasupati”, Lord of Creatures, one of the many names of Shiva, Mahadeva.

Second, claiming Wicca is merely and simply a modern invention doesn’t do justice to the spiritual experiences and claims of many Wiccans and (Neo)Pagans. For instance, it is common to here Wiccopagans claim that Horus, or Thor, came to them in a dream, or manifested in some other way, indicating that the way of Horus or that the Asatru is in fact a real, living path, and that it is not “dead” by any means, historical records notwithstanding. In some ways, this claim is similar to the claim of Moses meeting the Abraham’s Lord in the desert. Looking at Moses from a perspective that lies outside of the Abrahamic tradition, how could one claim that Moses met Abraham’s Lord? Can Moses’ claim of historical continuity with Abraham be questioned, or re-examined? Maybe the deity Moses met was not the one of Abraham? In other words, by bringing in Moses’ example, I suggest that if Moses is given the benefit of the doubt – if the deity that Moses met is believed to be the deity that Abraham met, even though Moses lived at least 500 years after Abraham – then why not give modern Wiccopagans the benefit of the doubt, when they make similar claims about encountering European, Asian, and African deities during their spiritual experiences?

 

[Benadam]

Ahimsa:

In some ways, this claim is similar to the claim of Moses meeting the Abraham’s Lord in the desert. Looking at Moses from a perspective that lies outside of the Abrahamic tradition, how could one claim that Moses met Abraham’s Lord? Can Moses’ claim of historical continuity with Abraham be questioned, or re-examined? Maybe the deity Moses met was not the one of Abraham? In other words, by bringing in Moses’ example, I suggest that if Moses is given the benefit of the doubt – if the deity that Moses met is believed to be the deity that Abraham met, even though Moses lived at least 500 years after Abraham – then why not give modern Wiccopagans the benefit of the doubt, when they make similar claims about encountering European, Asian, and African deities during their spiritual experiences?

How are they different traditions? Moses learned the tradition of his blood family which was handed down orally from Abraham.
With the Egyptian familial bonds adding a bit of polytheistic understanding for a more universal approach and the help of the God of his father that oral tradition became complete in that it’s purpose was resolved in the fulfillment of it’s promises, namely , the land of milk and honey and a new covenant born of a new revelation in Moses.

 

[St.James]

Ahimsa:

I’m not a Wiccan – my spiritual influences come further East. But I think that to say that Wicca is simply and merely a “new, 20th-century religion” ignores many things we know about how Wicca developed. First, it ignores the fact that Crowley and Gardner were both inspired and took ideas and practices from the Dharmic and Yogic paths of India. Insofar as Wicca continues this Dharmic/Yogic thread, Wicca could be looked at as a Western formulation of millennia-old Asian traditions. This is not to say that Wicca is merely or predominately Dharmic/Yogic-based, but the influence is certainly there…

I most certainly agree… Tantric Buddhism.

All of these religions, although patheistic, do not deny the existance of a source of evil, yet modern Wicca does. I find this curious, and frankly, dishonest.

 

[Ahimsa]

St. James:

I most certainly agree… Tantric Buddhism.

All of these religions, although patheistic, do not deny the existance of a source of evil, yet modern Wicca does. I find this curious, and frankly, dishonest.

Many Wiccans I’ve encountered believe in an afterlife, but they all reject the idea of an afterlife-with-unpleasantness (e.g., hell), which I’ve found curious, since hells (as the results of karma) are part of traditional Hindu and Buddhist belief.

 

[Ahimsa]

Benadam:

How are they different traditions? Moses learned the tradition of his blood family which was handed down orally from Abraham.
With the Egyptian familial bonds adding a bit of polytheistic understanding for a more universal approach and the help of the God of his father that oral tradition became complete in that it’s purpose was resolved in the fulfillment of it’s promises, namely , the land of milk and honey and a new covenant born of a new revelation in Moses.

I don’t argue that Moses and Abraham were venerating different Deities. From the Jewish, Christian, Islamic, and Bahai perspecive, Moses and Abraham belong to the same tradition. My point was that why assume that modern Wiccans haven’t similarly encountered – through their religious experiences – the deities of ancient Rome or Egypt. As a great Southern writer once said, “The past isn’t over. It’s not even past.”

I don’t know how the official Catholic position deals with the question of the reality of Horus, or Thor, however.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Benadam: I’ll have to check out Heathen Dawn’s site. The point I was trying to make is that a lot of this neopagan Wiccan stuff has been invented within the last two centuries. Consider this: Voodoo is a religion in my area in, and of, its own right. There’s a lot of religious syncretism (adaptation of western religions ) into its “theology” but you can’t ignore the African origins of it. It has been passed down from one believer to the next in a pretty much unbroken line. We cannot make the same arguement for the Celtic or Anglo-Saxon neoreligions. Two of the major Celtic feasts were “adopted” into our faith by the Irish - these being Beltane (of sorts) May being the month of Our Lady and Samhain (Halloween, All Saints, All Souls) which is perhaps more universally accepted by the Church. What’s left? Well, being raised ethnically Irish I know about the wee folk, banshides, and we had a whole lot of customs relating to mourning the dead. But I was not taught to do a “fith-fath” or to cast a “geas” or any of the other things we find in Irish mythology. There were lingering folk beliefs but the religion was long gone. Same thing goes for the Anglo/Saxon - Danish/Norse contiuum. Thor came to them in a dream or Donner? Odin or Wotan? And pray tell just how does Horus enter into northern European mythology? If one was going to be neopagan, one would have better chance with resurrecting Roman or, yes, Persian beliefs because there are written accounts. No such accounts exist in such detail in the Celtic/northern European realm to my knowledge.

 

[Teresa9]

Dear friends

You all chose to ignore my question and I do not mind that. I find it amazing that any religion would ignore what is present in the mortal life and also ignore it again in the afterlife. Evil/bad is present in this life and there is a consequence of it in the after life just as good is present in this life and there is also a consequence of it in the afterlife and you may argue from this or that theologial point or this or that educated argument, but it is common sense and to avoid common sense is to avoid what humanity reflects, is imaged in and is a part of the Truine God. Don’t you know that it is a universal truth in the heavens and on the earth that everything has a consequence even to it’s own atmosphere, that all these are bound by laws and that it is common sense that action creates reaction and there is a consequence? Where are you looking when you say that there is no equal and opposite? All things are governed on this basis and all things reflect the truine God, if they do not then they are not of God and if they are not of God they are the opposite action which is the adversary.

To avoid is to deny and to deny is to not fully live.

‘Let the dead bury their dead’

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[brotherhrolf]

Sorry Theresa. Good and evil, yes - without a doubt. No question…they are wrong about that.

Let the dead bury the dead. Yes, Our Lord said that but he also raised Lazarus from the dead. My family has kept the traditions of County Cork for over 150 yrs in New Orleans, Louisiana, United States of America where my ancestors from the potato famine were dumped on the levees in 90 + degrees of heat and 5,000 more were buried in a mass grave killed from yellow fever and malaria digging ditches because it wasn’t work fit for slaves to do. When my grandmother died, yes we shut the clocks down; yes we covered the mirrors in black silk; yes we shut off the TV and radio for a month. Are you saying that this is “pagan”? Folk beliefs, yes. Pagan, no.

 

[Teresa9]

brotherhrolf:

Sorry Theresa. Good and evil, yes - without a doubt. No question…they are wrong about that.

Let the dead bury the dead. Yes, Our Lord said that but he also raised Lazarus from the dead. My family has kept the traditions of County Cork for over 150 yrs in New Orleans, Louisiana, United States of America where my ancestors from the potato famine were dumped on the levees in 90 + degrees of heat and 5,000 more were buried in a mass grave killed from yellow fever and malaria digging ditches because it wasn’t work fit for slaves to do. When my grandmother died, yes we shut the clocks down; yes we covered the mirrors in black silk; yes we shut off the TV and radio for a month. Are you saying that this is “pagan”? Folk beliefs, yes. Pagan, no.

Dear friend

Do you understand what our Lord meant by ‘Let the dead bury their dead’? It does not mean all those who have died, it means those who live but still they live as though they are dead, they have no life in them , they live without God and therefore are living dead. They have this life, but this life is futile without the next as all this life is, is a passage to eternal life, if all this short blink in eternity which we call our short lifespan is the everything and the consequence of it is of nothing then we are nothing in ourselves and everlasting life is nothing. If there is no definition and no consequence, no action and reaction then we are simply of nothing.

Those who live in the light live in life and that is Christ Jesus. To live in this life outside of the light is to live a living death. To live in Christ is to know action and reaction, to know consqeuence and this is the common sense of all universal laws of all atmospheres the heavens and the earth. It really is simple. Be like a child. You may argue your theories and educated understanding but it does not alter the laws of the universe of which is created to exist in union with God including humanity the height of God’s creation.

‘Let the dead bury their dead’

God bless you and much love and peace to you

 

[brotherhrolf]

OK makes much better sense. Thanks. I wear two hats - one is my anthropologist hat in which I should not make judgments based upon my Catholic Faith and my other hat in which I can make those judments based upon my Catholic Faith. I am not an apologist for non-Catholic faiths - my point about Vodoo is that whether or not I like it, it exists all around me. Could you get me within a half mile of a voodoo ceremony. NO WAY! To live in Louisiana is to know that this stuff is evil, pure and well, not simple. I don’t know but I am faced with a “religion” which can and has raised the hairs on the nape of my neck. I find all the Celtic, northern European stuff to be well…I have the word!..Martha Stewart! Plus, I have to deal with all my neighbors who are pentecostal fundamentalist Christians who think that we Catholics are witches…can’t light them candles doncha know.

 

[Teresa9]

brotherhrolf:

OK makes much better sense. Thanks. I wear two hats - one is my anthropologist hat in which I should not make judgments based upon my Catholic Faith and my other hat in which I can make those judments based upon my Catholic Faith. I am not an apologist for non-Catholic faiths - my point about Vodoo is that whether or not I like it, it exists all around me. Could you get me within a half mile of a voodoo ceremony. NO WAY! To live in Louisiana is to know that this stuff is evil, pure and well, not simple. I don’t know but I am faced with a “religion” which can and has raised the hairs on the nape of my neck. I find all the Celtic, northern European stuff to be well…I have the word!..Martha Stewart! Plus, I have to deal with all my neighbors who are pentecostal fundamentalist Christians who think that we Catholics are witches…can’t light them candles doncha know.

Dear friend

Birds of a feather flock together…

You cannot persuade nor dissuade those who will not listen.

Let the dead bury their dead… if you have given them everything you can (and you should you are called as a disciple to spread the Gospel by deed and word) and they still reject the truth, then they are dead as dead can be and that is not of your making but of their own…we all make our own end.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Benadam]

Ahimsa:

I don’t argue that Moses and Abraham were venerating different Deities. From the Jewish, Christian, Islamic, and Bahai perspecive, Moses and Abraham belong to the same tradition. My point was that why assume that modern Wiccans haven’t similarly encountered – through their religious experiences – the deities of ancient Rome or Egypt. As a great Southern writer once said, “The past isn’t over. It’s not even past.”

I don’t know how the official Catholic position deals with the question of the reality of Horus, or Thor, however.

Ok, I see what happened , when you said we were giving the benefit of the doubt about the common God idea, I went on defense.
I should’ve said that I don’t doubt the same spiritual resource is manifested in both the ancient and modern forms of the Pagan practice.

On the other hand when a religion has lost it’s physical human connection it dies. For instance the manifestation of spirit of the early Church compared to today looks quite different and without it’s unbroken tradition it would be impossible to recognize.

The modern practice has to understand it’s a new creature and not an imitation of the old one.
It’s like a new born, it is a new world and new experiences, a distinct individual requiring a distinct approach in order for the particular spirit to manifest it’s person.

I suggest that the most powerfull religions have that physical connection amongst a collective that don’t realize what they worship or that they worship even.

 

[Benadam]

brotherhrolf:

Consider this: Voodoo is a religion in my area in, and of, its own right. There’s a lot of religious syncretism (adaptation of western religions *) into its “theology” but you can’t ignore the African origins of it. It has been passed down from one believer to the next in a pretty much unbroken line.are

you refering to Santoria? I think it’s called. Anyway, if it is, yes they tap into a deep well. A spritual resource as ancient as Africa has roots I’ll bet. That’s an old bond*

And pray tell just how does Horus enter into northern European mythology? If one was going to be neopagan, one would have better chance with resurrecting Roman or, yes, Persian beliefs because there are written accounts. No such accounts exist in such detail in the Celtic/northern European realm to my knowledge.

** well, I wonder, you’re an archelologist maybe you can answer a question that relates to just that. What does the record show at this time in regards of the character of the most ancient artifacts connected to ritual or worship ? **
Can you tell if it’s Matriarchal as in those little fertility carvings found in northern europe I think it is?
Those little round statues that seem to exxagerate the femaleness of the figure. Or what are your thoughts on the most ancient artifacts connected to worship?

 

[Neithan]

*Originally posted by *Heathen Dawn:
It doesn’t. Whether you believe in him or not, Satan doesn’t exist.

I find this statement incredibly naive and strange, especially coming from Wiccans, who propose a tolerant, polytheistic world-view. I mean, how do you know this? How do you know Satan is not “The God” which you worship? After all, Lucifer was once hailed “Son of the Dawn,” and the great “Morning Star.”

But I presume you view anything outside the four walls of your catechism as anti-Christian.

There is nothing anti-Christian which is not intended to be.

Wicca is certainly new, begun in the 20th century, but the practice of magic is as old as civilization, with widely varying degrees of acceptance.

[magic] is a corruption of religion, not a preliminary stage of it as Rationalists maintain, and it appears as an accompaniment of decadent rather than of rising civilization. There is nothing to show that in Babylon, Greece, and Rome the use of magic decreased as these nations progressed; on the contrary, it increased as they declined. It is not true that “religion is the despair of magic”; in reality, *magic is but a disease of religion *(“Occultism,” Catholic Encylopaedia, par. 3, italics mine).

It is no surprise that in our current, decadent, post-modern western society, Wicca is thriving and constantly re-inventing itself. With the current trends of moral relativity and pluralism, it can only continue to grow.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Benadam: It’s not Santoria although there are probably elements which are the same. Santoria exists in ex-Portuguese and Spanish colonies whereas Voodoo or Vodun exists in the ex-French colonies (i.e. Haitii and Louisiana).

 

[brotherhrolf]

Benadam: Sorry I missed the second part. It would seem from the archaeological record that fecundity was part of the first religion. There are a lot of the “Venus figures” in paleolithic art as well as a lot of gravid animal shapes - horses, elk, etc. I am inclined to believe that the first “religion” was matriarchal in nature. It’s really only within the last 4,000 years that patriarchal religion gets a foot hold. This is part of the problem I have with neopaganism. The early Celts were matrilineal…the goddess is more important than the god. Plus, all of this hearkens back to an earlier Indo-European era hence all the similarities between the various gods. Kinda interesting that the only monotheists were the Egyptians (very briefly) and the Jews.

 

[Benadam]

brotherhrolf:

Benadam: Sorry I missed the second part. It would seem from the archaeological record that fecundity was part of the first religion. There are a lot of the “Venus figures” in paleolithic art as well as a lot of gravid animal shapes - horses, elk, etc. I am inclined to believe that the first “religion” was matriarchal in nature. It’s really only within the last 4,000 years that patriarchal religion gets a foot hold. This is part of the problem I have with neopaganism. The early Celts were matrilineal…the goddess is more important than the god. Plus, all of this hearkens back to an earlier Indo-European era hence all the similarities between the various gods. Kinda interesting that the only monotheists were the Egyptians (very briefly) and the Jews.

Most religions that are founded in those primal matriarchal cultures also consider their own expression primary in all other aspects as well. That doesn’t seem to bother you much brotherhrolf. Me neither. If artifacts point to the probability that a matriarchal expression of religion was probably the first to emerge visibly and leave behind something to record, most would find that persuasive.

I expect that the most ancient visible expressions of religion would be matriarchal.

My conclusions assume that the structure of myth is founded on the bond struggles that resulted from sin in the first family of man.

I was wondering if your faith was supported by reason directed at that.