Wicca's World

[buffalo]

****[Wicca’s World

](http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/zwicca.HTM)****MSTERDAM, Netherlands, 26 NOV. 2005 Witchcraft is moving into the mainstream in the Netherlands. A Dutch court has ruled that the costs of witchcraft lessons can be tax-deductible, the Associated Press reported Oct. 31.

	The previous month, the Leeuwarden District Court confirmed the legal  		right to write off the costs of schooling 		—  		including in witchcraft 		—  		against tax bills. The costs can be substantial, according to one witch  		interviewed for the article. 
	
	Margarita Rongen runs the "Witches Homestead" in a northern province.  		Her workshops cost more than $200 a weekend, or more than $2,600 for a  		full course. Rongen claims she has trained more than 160 disciples over  		the past four decades. 
	
	In England, meanwhile, Portsmouth's Kingston Prison has hired a pagan  		priest to give spiritual advice to three inmates serving life sentences,  		the Telegraph reported Nov. 1. The prisoners have converted to paganism  		and, according to prison rules, are allowed a chaplain in the same way  		as those with Christian or other religious faiths. Denying them a pagan  		chaplain would infringe their human rights, said John Robinson, the  		prison governor. 
	
	Earlier, on Oct. 17, the London-based Times newspaper reported that  		pagan priests in all prisons will now be allowed to use wine and wands  		in ceremonies held in jails. The Times noted that under instructions  		sent to prison governors by Michael Spurr, the director of operations of  		the Prison Service, inmates practicing paganism will be allowed a  		hoodless robe, incense and a piece of religious jewelry among their  		personal possessions. 
	
	The governors were given a complete guide to paganism, based on  		information supplied by the Pagan Federation. Prisoners will also be  		allowed to practice paganism in their cells, including prayer, chanting  		and the reading of religious texts and rituals. It is not known how many  		pagan prisoners are in jails in England and Wales, the Times added.

more…
****

 

[ahimsaman72]

buffalo:

In England, meanwhile, Portsmouth’s Kingston Prison has hired a pagan priest to give spiritual advice to three inmates serving life sentences, the Telegraph reported Nov. 1. The prisoners have converted to paganism and, according to prison rules, are allowed a chaplain in the same way as those with Christian or other religious faiths. Denying them a pagan chaplain would infringe their human rights, said John Robinson, the prison governor. %between%

Do you disagree that they have the right to practice their religion? The Muslim, Jew, Christian and Pagan have every right to worship whomever or whatever they choose. Whether they are right or wrong is not our decision, but God’s. All citizens should be given the same opportunities and not have their religious freedom squelched because it is different from our religion.

Peace…

 

[Kristina_P]

buffalo:

	The previous month, the Leeuwarden District Court confirmed the legal  		right to write off the costs of schooling 		—  		including in witchcraft 		—  		against tax bills. The costs can be substantial, according to one witch  		interviewed for the article.

As long as they also allow the write-off of the cost of other kinds of religious education, this is nothing special. Either you allow all or you allow none. If the cost of some kinds of education is the issue, then maybe the Dutch people could pressure the government to put a cap on how much can be written off.

 

[Kristina_P]

None of this seems to be a problem of governments doing anything they shouldn’t do. Freedom of religion includes the freedom to be wrong. It is a wake-up call to anyone who thinks Wicca and other Pagan religions have only a few followers on the fringes of society (although I guess an argument could be made that prisoners and the Dutch are both on the fringe). They’re growing religions, and Christians should learn a few things about them for the purposes of evangelism.

 

[silverwings_88]

****[Wicca’s World

](http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/zwicca.HTM)****MSTERDAM, Netherlands, 26 NOV. 2005 Witchcraft is moving into the mainstream in the Netherlands. A Dutch court has ruled that the costs of witchcraft lessons can be tax-deductible, the Associated Press reported Oct. 31.

    The previous month, the Leeuwarden District Court confirmed the legal         right to write off the costs of schooling         —          including in witchcraft         —         against tax bills. The costs can be substantial, according to one witch         interviewed for the article. 
     
    Margarita Rongen runs the "Witches Homestead" in a northern province.         Her workshops cost more than $200 a weekend, or more than $2,600 for a         full course. Rongen claims she has trained more than 160 disciples over         the past four decades. 
     
    In England, meanwhile, Portsmouth's Kingston Prison has hired a pagan         priest to give spiritual advice to three inmates serving life sentences,         the Telegraph reported Nov. 1. The prisoners have converted to paganism         and, according to prison rules, are allowed a chaplain in the same way         as those with Christian or other religious faiths. Denying them a pagan         chaplain would infringe their human rights, said John Robinson, the         prison governor. 
     
    Earlier, on Oct. 17, the London-based Times newspaper reported that         pagan priests in all prisons will now be allowed to use wine and wands         in ceremonies held in jails. The Times noted that under instructions         sent to prison governors by Michael Spurr, the director of operations of         the Prison Service, inmates practicing paganism will be allowed a         hoodless robe, incense and a piece of religious jewelry among their         personal possessions. 
     
    The governors were given a complete guide to paganism, based on         information supplied by the Pagan Federation. Prisoners will also be         allowed to practice paganism in their cells, including prayer, chanting         and the reading of religious texts and rituals. It is not known how many         pagan prisoners are in jails in England and Wales, the Times added.

more…

UGH!! Lest there is no need for the money, Wicca should never be bought with money!! This is a mockery of spirituality! One should not pay for such…

Sorry, went off for abit there.

 

[Neithan]

ahimsaman72:

Do you disagree that they have the right to practice their religion? The Muslim, Jew, Christian and Pagan have every right to worship whomever or whatever they choose. Whether they are right or wrong is not our decision, but God’s. All citizens should be given the same opportunities and not have their religious freedom squelched because it is different from our religion.

Don’t really understand the defensive nature of your post… but I agree that–to the extent that they can be demonstrated not to sufficiently undermine or jeapardize the common good–religions should not be forcibly suppressed by the government. The catch here of course is, how does one interpret the effects of a religion on the ‘common good.’

I find this trend in society really fascinating. Here is an excerpt from the article on the occult from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

[Magic]
is a corruption of religion, not a preliminary stage of it as Rationalists maintain, and it appears as an accompaniment of decadent rather than of rising civilization. There is nothing to show that in Babylon, Greece, and Rome the use of magic decreased as these nations progressed; on the contrary, it increased as they declined. It is not true that “religion is the despair of magic”; in reality, magic is but a disease of religion. [emphasis mine]

Compare this with:

“Sanders devotes a section of the book explaining how the Wiccan rituals and spells have no roots prior to 1900, and are the result of inventions and adaptations by a group of men, notably Aleister Crowley and Gerald Gardner. Far from being a revival of some ancient paganism or matriarchal society, Wicca is a modern, male invention.”

Wicca is in every way a sign of the decadence to which western society has degraded itself. Every great culture turned to baser forms of spirituality during its decline. Has the modern western capitalist world begun it’s great descent?

Another interesting thing about Wicca is its desire to return to a ‘primitive matriarchial cvilization.’ This is destructive. TEXT DELETED

“Another factor leading adolescents to Wicca instead of Christianity is a desire for rituals and ceremonies. Modern church culture, observes Sanders, has reduced the importance of religious rituals and solemn celebrations, leading people to look for alternatives that offer more tangible supernatural experiences.”

This demonstrates the banality of Protestant Christianity and its consequences. The puritans robbed the Church of her beauty, her Liturgy and traditional ritual, which essentially filled this ‘spiritual hunger’ for people but with a healthy dose of Truth.
It’s also a warning for Catholics and the ‘protestantising’ trend which has attacked our Liturgy since Vatican II. We need to be careful to keep the traditional beauty of the Mass intact, lest we lose the faithful to baser, false, but more aesthetic spiritual avenues.

 

[Kristina_P]

Neithan:

Don’t really understand the defensive nature of your post… but I agree that–to the extent that they can be demonstrated not to sufficiently undermine or jeapardize the common good–religions should not be forcibly suppressed by the government. The catch here of course is, how does one interpret the effects of a religion on the ‘common good.’

I find this trend in society really fascinating. Here is an excerpt from the article on the occult from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Compare this with:

Wicca is in every way a sign of the decadence to which western society has degraded itself. Every great culture turned to baser forms of spirituality during its decline. Has the modern western capitalist world begun it’s great descent?

Another interesting thing about Wicca is its desire to return to a ‘primitive matriarchial cvilization.’ This is destructive. TEXT DELETED

This demonstrates the banality of Protestant Christianity and its consequences. The puritans robbed the Church of her beauty, her Liturgy and traditional ritual, which essentially filled this ‘spiritual hunger’ for people but with a healthy dose of Truth.
It’s also a warning for Catholics and the ‘protestantising’ trend which has attacked our Liturgy since Vatican II. We need to be careful to keep the traditional beauty of the Mass intact, lest we lose the faithful to baser, false, but more aesthetic spiritual avenues.

Hrm. Very well thought out.
Sidenote: While I’m all for the primacy of male leadership, I wouldn’t go shouting about patriarchy from the rooftops. It’s come to mean something completely different to most people, thanks to extreme feminism. I’ve found that if I use the word in a positive way at all, it’s a conversation ender for all the emotions that get stirred up.

 

[Neithan]

Kristina P.:

Sidenote: While I’m all for the primacy of male leadership, I wouldn’t go shouting about patriarchy from the rooftops. It’s come to mean something completely different to most people, thanks to extreme feminism. I’ve found that if I use the word in a positive way at all, it’s a conversation ender for all the emotions that get stirred up.

Good point. I should add that what I mean by ‘Patriarchy’ is simply the nuclear married family: the permanence of the father within the household. Matriarchal societies have a permanent mother and ‘rotating’ fathers. History shows that patriarchy has distinct advantages for society; in fact civilization itself is based on the patriarchal foundation that a woman promises to have only marital relations with her husband, thereby ensuring the father of legitimate children, and likewise the children of a legitimate father. ‘Marriage’ is essentially patriarchal.

Also, patriarchy is a super-added societal construct, whereas matriarchy is natural. Matriarchy always exists (there is never any doubt who a child’s mother is), but patriarchy stabilises it.

here is an interesting (but controversial) essay on this specific topic.

 

[Plato]

Wiccans and other Neo-pagan adherents have a right to their religion. God doesn’t force people to choose Him. True, we must present the case for Christianity, however, and pray that they become predisposed to invite the Holy Spirit in their lives.

Remember that the prophets of Ba’al were no match for Elijah in the OT and Jeezebel got hers as well for sinning against Yaweh’s innocent people and behalf of King Ahab. “The song remains the same.”

By the way, I have a friend who is a Wiccan, but we don’t talk religion. Also, I never felt I had to take out my crusader cloak with the big cross in the front and back when talking to these people. They certainly do fear persecution by Christians. In the end, it’s all about loving the person, not the person’s evil acts. That goes for all of us.

Plato

 

[Neithan]

Plato:

In the end, it’s all about loving the person, not the person’s evil acts. That goes for all of us.

Yeah… but, you can love that person right into hell, if you take the consequences of sin seriously. As Christians, we have a responsibility to witness the truth. At some point, your Wiccan friends have to know that you don’t think it’s cool that they play with demons.
Of course, you have to be careful not to be so blunt, but the message has to get across somehow. Love without truth is phony.

 

[Plato]

Neithan:

Yeah… but, you can love that person right into hell, if you take the consequences of sin seriously. As Christians, we have a responsibility to witness the truth. At some point, your Wiccan friends have to know that you don’t think it’s cool that they play with demons.
Of course, you have to be careful not to be so blunt, but the message has to get across somehow. Love without truth is phony.

He knows my postion clearly. How much more do I need to let him know? I believe St. Paul said something about having futile arguments, but I can’t recall the verse (forgive me, I’m Catholic - LOL!).

In fact, he was a former Catholic. The person and his acts have to be separated. Granted, that’s extremely difficult to do, but the Catholic position on human nature is that we are “damaged goods” - not the “depraved soul” of Protestantism . . . for all that God created was good. Sin damages us, hence we’re damaged goods.

There are other ways to witness to the truth. For example, God gave us the power of human intellect to be used in his service. Wiccans, and most of the world in general, are relativists. Whenever, appropriate, I engage my friend, and others, into moral discussions and show the contradictions in their arguments. Life that’s not centered on God doesn’t fulfill.

Quite frankly, I don’t believe in the “fire and brimstone” and hit-the-sinner-on-the-head Bible approach. There are so many other ways to witness. One way is to not make people feel as outcasts and also feel judged. Jesus ate with sinners, etc.

Plato

 

[Neithan]

Plato:

He knows my postion clearly

That’s good…

• Quite frankly, I don’t believe in the “fire and brimstone” and hit-the-sinner-on-the-head Bible approach.*

Absolutely. There’s a good quote that goes something like
“The Gospel is Truth, that as a possibility offered: it stimulates. As a possibility demanded: it annoys.”

Subtlety is definitely called for in evangelisation. Not deceptive, but prudent, so as to avoid any pressure. Christianity should always be an invitation, not an imposition. Faith cannot be forced.

 

[Plato]

Neithan:

That’s good…

Absolutely. There’s a good quote that goes something like
“The Gospel is Truth, that as a possibility offered: it stimulates. As a possibility demanded: it annoys.”

Subtlety is definitely called for in evangelisation. Not deceptive, but prudent, so as to avoid any pressure. Christianity should always be an invitation, not an imposition. Faith cannot be forced.

My brother (or sister?) . Nice talking to you. God bless+

Plato

 

[deb1]

Neithan:

some point, your Wiccan friends have to know that you don’t think it’s cool that they play with demons.
.

Just as a side note…I am pretty certain that most Wiccans don’t believe in Satan. From what I have read, the majority are very adament about the fact that they are not into devil worship.

 

[Plato]

deb1:

Just as a side note…I am pretty certain that most Wiccans don’t believe in Satan. From what I have read, the majority are very adament about the fact that they are not into devil worship.

Correct. They’re nature worshippers.

Plato

 

[Kristina_P]

Neithan:

Good point. I should add that what I mean by ‘Patriarchy’ is simply the nuclear married family: the permanence of the father within the household. Matriarchal societies have a permanent mother and ‘rotating’ fathers. History shows that patriarchy has distinct advantages for society; in fact civilization itself is based on the patriarchal foundation that a woman promises to have only marital relations with her husband, thereby ensuring the father of legitimate children, and likewise the children of a legitimate father. ‘Marriage’ is essentially patriarchal.

Also, patriarchy is a super-added societal construct, whereas matriarchy is natural. Matriarchy always exists (there is never any doubt who a child’s mother is), but patriarchy stabilises it.

here is an interesting (but controversial) essay on this specific topic.

Thanks for the link. It looks like it might make for some interesting Christmas break reading. It might be fun to start a thread about some of the points it makes.

 

[Lapsed]

Plato:

Correct. They’re nature worshippers.

Plato

Former Wiccan here.

Most Wiccans are actually mono- or duo-theistic, believing the notion that all gods are one God and all goddesses one Goddess, with many seeing the Goddess and God as being polar expressions of a single Divine unity. Hindu theology with a Western gloss.

There are some Wiccans who are true polytheists, most often associated with the more traditional British forms of Wicca and some are simply nature worshippers, but most hold some variation of the theology I outlined.

Wiccans deny the existence of Satan as an embodiment of evil and telling a Wiccan the she worships demons is the perfect way to get her to completely tune you out.

 

[Plato]

Lapsed:

Former Wiccan here.

Most Wiccans are actually mono- or duo-theistic, believing the notion that all gods are one God and all goddesses one Goddess, with many seeing the Goddess and God as being polar expressions of a single Divine unity. Hindu theology with a Western gloss.

There are some Wiccans who are true polytheists, most often associated with the more traditional British forms of Wicca and some are simply nature worshippers, but most hold some variation of the theology I outlined.

Wiccans deny the existence of Satan as an embodiment of evil and telling a Wiccan the she worships demons is the perfect way to get her to completely tune you out.

Lasped,

Thank you for your response and clarification. Truly appreciated!

I have two questions for you and I hope you can answer. If not, I understand - God Bless+.

Here they are:

(1) What made you leave Wicca?
(2) What is considered a good book that highlights the central tenets of Wicca.

Warm regards,

Plato

P.S. Just read your profile. You are Catholic. Great!

 

[Neithan]

Plato:

My brother (or sister?) . Nice talking to you. God bless+

(Brother), likewise!

Lapsed:

Wiccans deny the existence of Satan as an embodiment of evil and telling a Wiccan the she worships demons is the perfect way to get her to completely tune you out.

First of all, let me say that I’m definitely no expert on Wicca, but that I’m not sure I need to be to figure out whether they’re ‘playing with demons.’
Also, by no means am I advocating telling a Wiccan that they are a demon worshipper, which is why I added the ‘not be so blunt’ comment to Plato above.

Okay, so if Wiccans worship ‘the deity/ies’ but expressly deny that this is the God of Abraham (Yahweh), then what are they worshipping? For us, the Triune God is the one and only. No other gods [can] exist. For the most part, we recognize that Jews and Moslems worship God as well, though they deny His Triune Nature. Hindus do not worship our God, and neither can this be said for Wiccans or any other pagans.

Do Wiccans also call upon their ‘Horned God’ and ‘Mother Goddess’ to bestow themselves with or channel ‘magical powers’ in their rituals? If so, do you honestly think God would give such powers to them, when He has expressly forbidden such practices in Holy Scripture (not to mention they don’t recognize Him in the first place)?
In Christianity, there are only two kinds of pure spirits: good and evil. There is no neutral, due to their nature–a pure spirit is either entirely for or against God. But if God condemns magical practices, do you honestly think that the holy Angels–the only good spirits–would bless the followers of Wicca and bestow spiritual powers upon them?

What source does this leave us with? Assuming that Wiccans come into contact with certain spirits, these can only be demonic. Thus, they are ‘playing with demons’ in the Christian’s eyes. Again, I’m not suggesting that we–who hold entirely different beliefs–should evangelise from a directly antagonistic perspective, and condemn them as demon worshippers, since they don’t even believe demons exist. Witch-hunting didn’t work so well during the Middle Ages and it certainly wouldn’t work well today. I think Plato has the right idea, that we can engage Wiccans indirectly on some aspect of their worldview, such as relativism. Always in a spirit of truth and charity.

Another thing: don’t you find it sketchy that the same man–Aleister Crowley–is hailed as a founder of Wicca, father of the Church of Satan, and L. Ron Hubbard’s singular inspiration for Scientology?
He also liked to called himself ‘The Great Beast 666.’ Not to mention his magical rituals indulged a slew of abominable sexual perversions the likes of which should make anyone with a shred of morality weep. If that isn’t enough damnation, allegedly even the Nazis were fans of his.
Makes one wonder.

 

[Plato]

quote=Neithan, likewise!

First of all, let me say that I’m definitely no expert on Wicca, but that I’m not sure I need to be to figure out whether they’re ‘playing with demons.’
Also, by no means am I advocating telling a Wiccan that they are a demon worshipper, which is why I added the ‘not be so blunt’ comment to Plato above.

Okay, so if Wiccans worship ‘the deity/ies’ but expressly deny that this is the God of Abraham (Yahweh), then what are they worshipping? For us, the Triune God is the one and only. No other gods [can] exist. For the most part, we recognize that Jews and Moslems worship God as well, though they deny His Triune Nature. Hindus do not worship our God, and neither can this be said for Wiccans or any other pagans.

Do Wiccans also call upon their ‘Horned God’ and ‘Mother Goddess’ to bestow themselves with or channel ‘magical powers’ in their rituals? If so, do you honestly think God would give such powers to them, when He has expressly forbidden such practices in Holy Scripture (not to mention they don’t recognize Him in the first place)?
In Christianity, there are only two kinds of pure spirits: good and evil. There is no neutral, due to their nature–a pure spirit is either entirely for or against God. But if God condemns magical practices, do you honestly think that the holy Angels–the only good spirits–would bless the followers of Wicca and bestow spiritual powers upon them?

What source does this leave us with? Assuming that Wiccans come into contact with certain spirits, these can only be demonic. Thus, they are ‘playing with demons’ in the Christian’s eyes. Again, I’m not suggesting that we–who hold entirely different beliefs–should evangelise from a directly antagonistic perspective, and condemn them as demon worshippers, since they don’t even believe demons exist. Witch-hunting didn’t work so well during the Middle Ages and it certainly wouldn’t work well today. I think Plato has the right idea, that we can engage Wiccans indirectly on some aspect of their worldview, such as relativism. Always in a spirit of truth and charity.

Another thing: don’t you find it sketchy that the same man–Aleister Crowley–is hailed as a founder of Wicca, father of the Church of Satan, and L. Ron Hubbard’s singular inspiration for Scientology?
He also liked to called himself ‘The Great Beast 666.’ Not to mention his magical rituals indulged a slew of abominable sexual perversions the likes of which should make anyone with a shred of morality weep. If that isn’t enough damnation, allegedly even the Nazis were fans of his.
Makes one wonder.
[/quote]

Neithan,

Excellent response. I am still thinking whether Wiccans worship evil spirts. According to them, they don’t. According to us, well, let’s refer to sacred scripture in the Old Testament.

The Canannites worshipped the agricultural gods Ba’al and Ashtart (spelling?). These gods were a couple, male and female. Now, we know all creation is under God Almighty, Yahweh. Does this necessarily mean that Ba’al and Ashtart are evil spirits, or a misunderstanding of God’s nature as we know it (triune)?

Also, I don’t think we’re exacly sure if Abraham Himself discontinued to believe in the existence of these lesser gods. he didn’t woship them after knowing Yahweh. He just knew that he would follow the head honcho - Yahweh, and that there was no need to follow anyone lesser god. All were subject to Him. The theology of one all existing God came much later.

Likewise, Wiccans believe in a male and female god couple. So, they’re polytheists and we know what our Lord thinks about polytheism. But are they necessarily evil spirits?

I’ll get back to you - I trying to figure this out as well.

Plato