Wicca's World

[Lapsed]

Plato:

Lasped,

(1) What made you leave Wicca?

I’ll start by saying I’m a cradle Catholic who left the Church in his mid teens.

I spent a few years in my early twenties practising Wicca. I was searching, trying different spiritual paths on for size. Wicca appealed to me for a lot of reasons, most of which are common to the late teen/early adult seekers who seem to form the largest demographic of Wiccans I’ve encountered.

In the end, what really caused me to looke elsewhere was the complete lack of a moral framework. Yes, there is the Rede (An it harm none, do what thou wilt) and the Threefold Law (What send ye out returns to thee threefold), but the general emphasis is on a feel good morality which I used to justify some decidedly immoral behaviour on my part.

So now my daughter, born out of wedlock, bears the brunt of the burden for my sins, deprived of a two parent home, though not of two parents. I’m very involved in her life.

I received a much needed wake-up call that caused me to really look at my life and where I was. I was a mess and realized that that mess was largely the result of the spiritual path I had chosen. The more I considered where I was, the more I realized that no matter how much I prayed, the gods never answered.

Next I wound up a Mormon, but that’s another thread entirely.

quote=Plato What is considered a good book that highlights the central tenets of Wicca.
[/quote]

There are quite a number of them really, but a good overview of the predominent tenets in Wicca can be had in Scott Cunningham’s book Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practioner. However, keep in mind that Wicca is as divided as Christianity in terms of beliefs and practises. Most traditionalist Wiccans (the Wiccan equivelant of fundamentalists) dislike Cunningham’s book, but modern American Wicca (make it up as you go along) has been largely shaped by that particular book .

Plato:

P.S. Just read your profile. You are Catholic. Great!

For the sake of clarity, I’m a lapsed Catholic (hence the screen name) struggling with returning to the Church. Given the convoluted path I’ve walked the last 15 years or so, I’m a little gun shy about returning, though in my heart I know I’m Catholic.

 

[Plato]

Lapsed:

I’ll start by saying I’m a cradle Catholic who left the Church in his mid teens.

I spent a few years in my early twenties practising Wicca. I was searching, trying different spiritual paths on for size. Wicca appealed to me for a lot of reasons, most of which are common to the late teen/early adult seekers who seem to form the largest demographic of Wiccans I’ve encountered.

In the end, what really caused me to looke elsewhere was the complete lack of a moral framework. Yes, there is the Rede (An it harm none, do what thou wilt) and the Threefold Law (What send ye out returns to thee threefold), but the general emphasis is on a feel good morality which I used to justify some decidedly immoral behaviour on my part.

So now my daughter, born out of wedlock, bears the brunt of the burden for my sins, deprived of a two parent home, though not of two parents. I’m very involved in her life.

I received a much needed wake-up call that caused me to really look at my life and where I was. I was a mess and realized that that mess was largely the result of the spiritual path I had chosen. The more I considered where I was, the more I realized that no matter how much I prayed, the gods never answered.

Next I wound up a Mormon, but that’s another thread entirely.

There are quite a number of them really, but a good overview of the predominent tenets in Wicca can be had in Scott Cunningham’s book Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practioner. However, keep in mind that Wicca is as divided as Christianity in terms of beliefs and practises. Most traditionalist Wiccans (the Wiccan equivelant of fundamentalists) dislike Cunningham’s book, but modern American Wicca (make it up as you go along) has been largely shaped by that particular book .

For the sake of clarity, I’m a lapsed Catholic (hence the screen name) struggling with returning to the Church. Given the convoluted path I’ve walked the last 15 years or so, I’m a little gun shy about returning, though in my heart I know I’m Catholic.

Well . . . welcome back! I’d rather not call you 'Lasped". I know what you mean, but everyone deserves that name because being holy is not easy. That’s why we cling to God for his help. It’s as if you’re being harder on yourself that Jesus would.

At this point, I would normally talk about the love that one finds in the sacrament of penance - which is the starting point. But, I guess this would be too personal. I will pray that your faith increase and that you fall in rapturous love with God and his Church, for the kingdom is indeed at hand.

Please consider changing your screen name. As you know, names are important in our tradition. I know your getting back slowly, but part of the small steps one takes is having a perception of oneself as God would - which is that he loves you as his child.

Please forgive me for extending myself beyond what is comfortable for you.

Your brother in Christ,

Plato

 

[Lapsed]

I’m not here to be a Wiccan apologist, but I will correct errors and misrepresentations. I neither support nor endorse Wicca, I just don’t like seeing anything misrepresented.

Neithan:

Also, by no means am I advocating telling a Wiccan that they are a demon worshipper, which is why I added the ‘not be so blunt’ comment to Plato above.

This is all I was getting at. I was making no claims or assertions as to the true nature of Wiccan deities, just pointing out that telling a Wiccan she worships demons is a really bad way to witness to them.

Neithan:

Okay, so if Wiccans worship ‘the deity/ies’ but expressly deny that this is the God of Abraham (Yahweh), then what are they worshipping? For us, the Triune God is the one and only. No other gods [can] exist. For the most part, we recognize that Jews and Moslems worship God as well, though they deny His Triune Nature. Hindus do not worship our God, and neither can this be said for Wiccans or any other pagans.

Wiccans will tell you that you have it backwards, as will Hindus, and that the Biblical God is only one face of the greater God they worship.

Neithan:

Do Wiccans also call upon their ‘Horned God’ and ‘Mother Goddess’ to bestow themselves with or channel ‘magical powers’ in their rituals?

No, they do not. Wiccans believe the power they tap into is natural and found within themselves and the world around them and is not expressly channeled to them by their gods.

Neithan:

If so, do you honestly think God would give such powers to them, when He has expressly forbidden such practices in Holy Scripture (not to mention they don’t recognize Him in the first place)?

Remember Wiccans do not see the Bible as Divine. To them it is only a human book with human rules constituted to enforce and maintain a patriarchy. Anything which is forbidden in its pages was forbidden by men and not God.

Neithan:

In Christianity, there are only two kinds of pure spirits: good and evil. There is no neutral, due to their nature–a pure spirit is either entirely for or against God. But if God condemns magical practices, do you honestly think that the holy Angels–the only good spirits–would bless the followers of Wicca and bestow spiritual powers upon them?

With no objective standard to adhere to, Wiccans undeerstand spirit entities as they see fit and will tell you that the Bible misrepresents the spirit world.

Neithan:

What source does this leave us with? Assuming that Wiccans come into contact with certain spirits, these can only be demonic. Thus, they are ‘playing with demons’ in the Christian’s eyes.

The key phrase here is “…in the Christian’s eyes.” Wiccans do not see the world as Christians do and for the most part, though they would not state it explicitly, hold Christianity to be an evil religion, just as Christians hold Wicca to be evil.

Neithan:

I think Plato has the right idea, that we can engage Wiccans indirectly on some aspect of their worldview, such as relativism. Always in a spirit of truth and charity.

I agree completely.

Neithan:

Another thing: don’t you find it sketchy that the same man–Aleister Crowley–is hailed as a founder of Wicca, father of the Church of Satan, and L. Ron Hubbard’s singular inspiration for Scientology?
He also liked to called himself ‘The Great Beast 666.’ Not to mention his magical rituals indulged a slew of abominable sexual perversions the likes of which should make anyone with a shred of morality weep. If that isn’t enough damnation, allegedly even the Nazis were fans of his.
Makes one wonder.

Alister Crowley had no direct involvement in the formation of Wicca. He and Gerald Gardner knew each other and corresponded somewhat, but there is no evidence that Crowley was directly involved in Gardner’s creation of Wicca. Given the types of notes Crowley kept, which would make the most obsessively organized accountant weep with joy, make no mention whatsoever of Gardner asking for Crowley’s help or Crowley helping, Crowley probably didn’t help. Ronald Hutton’s Triumph of the Moon is generally considered the most accurate work on the development of modern Wicca.

This doesn’t mean, however, that Gardner didn’t adapt Crowley’s rituals. He clearly did as anyone familiar with the works of both men can duly attest.

 

[Plato]

“L”,

This is all great stuff to know for evangelization. In no way do I see you being a Wiccan apologist. You’ve just taught me a great deal. For instance, I think the way to approach Wiccans is on talk about spirituality, inspiration, who created "nature, morality (they’re relaitivists). Am I on the right track?

Plato

P.S. This is an edit. Let me add that this approach is all to help predispose them for the Holy Spirit to do His work. Once the premises are addressed, then the rest of the argument starts falling apart. Once predisposed, then comes the preaching of Christ Jesus. Recall Saint Paul’s technique of evangelizing the Greeks: he used the unknown god as his entry point for preaching Christ Jesus.

 

[Lapsed]

Aye Plato, Wiccans for the most part are relativistic and tend to have something of a knee-jerk reaction to things that hint at absolute Truth or morality. Many of them were raised Christian and have some very heavy emotional baggage where Christianity is concerned, though this is not true in all cases. There is also a strong anti-patriarchal streak running through Wicca, even among those who are not feminists.

Bringing the truth to Wiccans can be particularly challenging because for many, turning to Wicca was an act of rebellion against Christianity. It can be safest to approach them on philosophical as opposed to spiritual grounds if you want to keep the dialogue open.

 

[Plato]

Lapsed:

Aye Plato, Wiccans for the most part are relativistic and tend to have something of a knee-jerk reaction to things that hint at absolute Truth or morality. Many of them were raised Christian and have some very heavy emotional baggage where Christianity is concerned, though this is not true in all cases. There is also a strong anti-patriarchal streak running through Wicca, even among those who are not feminists.

Bringing the truth to Wiccans can be particularly challenging because for many, turning to Wicca was an act of rebellion against Christianity. It can be safest to approach them on philosophical as opposed to spiritual grounds if you want to keep the dialogue open.

My dear friend L,

Agreed, and indeed. This is why I’m trained in both philosophy and theology - the soul of which is Sacred Scripture.

So many Christian arguments can be made use philosophical language. Most people today don’t even realize it. Everyone is sensitive to religious language, and it only comes in after a person is, as I say, predisposed to hearing the Truth. We only assist in the process while the Holy Spirit does the rest.

Wonderful! Thanks again!

Plato

 

[Plato]

Neithan,

Excellent response. I am still thinking whether Wiccans worship evil spirits. According to them, they don’t. According to us, well, let’s refer to sacred scripture in the Old Testament.

The Canaanites worshipped the agricultural gods Ba’al and Ashtart (spelling?). These gods were a couple, male and female. Now, we know all creation is under God Almighty, Yahweh. Does this necessarily mean that Ba’al and Ashtart are evil spirits (?), or a misunderstanding of God’s nature as we know it (triune)?

Also, I don’t think we’re exacly sure if Abraham Himself discontinued to believe in the existence of these lesser gods. He didn’t worship them after knowing Yahweh - that’s the pact they made. Abraham just knew that he would follow the Head Honcho - Yahweh, and that there was no need to follow anyone lesser god. All were subject to Him. The theology of one all existing God came much later.

Likewise, Wiccans believe in a male and female god couple. So, they’re polytheists and we know what our Lord thinks about polytheism. But are they necessarily evil spirits? Or, is it an error in understanding God’s nature?

The problem with these neo pagan religions is that adherents are regressing back to the times before Abraham. Isn’t that strange? It’s as if it’s a symptom of not knowing one’s own relgion in th first place. Most Wiccans are former Christains? Is this true? You see, we need to re-evagelized our own sibling Christians otherwise - look what happens! My Wiccan friend told me that he became a witch because there was no one there to help him when he was going through a serious life crisis.

I’ll get back to you - I trying to figure this out as well.

Plato

 

[Neithan]

Lapsed:

The key phrase here is “…in the Christian’s eyes.” Wiccans do not see the world as Christians do and for the most part, though they would not state it explicitly, hold Christianity to be an evil religion, just as Christians hold Wicca to be evil.

Of course Lapsed; all I’m doing in the above post is trying to show *from a Christian perspective *that Wiccans–if any spirits are involved in their practices–are involved with demons.

Plato:

Likewise, Wiccans believe in a male and female god couple. So, they’re polytheists and we know what our Lord thinks about polytheism. But are they necessarily evil spirits? Or, is it an error in understanding God’s nature?

Good question, but the only relevance that I see is if they come into contact with spirits. From what Lapsed above describes, Wiccans do not consciously invoke demons–so the accusation of ‘demon-worshipper’ would be entirely unfounded; however, assuming [orthodox Catholic] Christianity is the truth, *if *Wiccans come into contact with spirits, my above post attempts to show by some sort of logical deduction (poorly formulated) that these must of necessity be demonic.
Therefore, in the Christian worldview, Wicca if in contact with spiritual forces is demonic and dangerous. Yes
o?

The problem with these neo pagan religions is that adherents are regressing back to the times before Abraham. Isn’t that strange? It’s as if it’s a symptom of not knowing one’s own relgion in th first place.

Yes, this is exactly why I’m so fascinated with this trend. It seems as if our culture is abandoning Christianity and reverting to paganism. But as the Catholic Encyclopedia suggests, a sort of paganism which is indicative “of decadent rather than of rising civilization …] a disease of religion.”
In other words, not the ancient Greek pre-Christ paganism which spawned the classic myths we still enjoy, but the post-Christ Roman paganism which involved mystery cults, magic, and sex. The occult.

My Wiccan friend told me that he became a witch because there was no one there to help him when he was going through a serious life crisis.

I think one of the main lures of magic is the temptation to control our environment beyond our natural abilities. Occultists typically seek ultimate manipulation and control over their reality, rather than entrust it into the hands of God or gods/godesses.
Which begs another question: where is Wicca placed within the general Occult? Lapsed above mentions that “Wiccans believe the power they tap into is natural and found within themselves and the world around them and is not expressly channeled to them by their gods.” This suggests to me that Wiccans pay lip service to a god/goddess but fall into the general aim of the occult in which members seek ultimate self-control: to make man himself into his own god.
The essential sin of the occult is pride: asserting Self before God.
This is ironically the same essential sin of each and every demon.

 

[Plato]

Hello Neithan,

You wrote:

Therefore, in the Christian worldview, Wicca if in contact with spiritual forces is demonic and dangerous. Yes
o?

Absolutely.

Neithan, I don’t know if Wiccans are “deists”, meaning that they believe in their male/female god couple, but it doesn’t go any further than acknowledgment. They are just hanging out eternity and reference is made to them for what they represent: the female god being mother nature and the male god - I don’t know.

In our own Christian religion, we’ve had our own deists and idealists at the other end of the spectrum.

Of course, as you said, if they invoke power from within themselves, than that’s mortally sinful. The original sin of Adam and Eve all over again.

I have to think about the rest of your well argued post. There’s a lot of goint points there.

Great stuff written here. I’m glad I found this forum. I’ll get back to you later.

Plato