Wife hanging with other men/husbands?

[EasterJoy]

The idea that ANY man is a temptation to ANY woman at ANY time and vice versa smacks of Jansenism to me…not orthodox Catholicism. We are not lust filled beasts with no self-control. Original sin tainted our natures to be sure, but utter depravity as taught by Luther is heresy.

No one is saying all the people all of the time. They’re only saying that just one guy once out of the whole crowd and the whole time they know each other presents a real problem. The wife only has to have one married male friend think that he’s found his “true soul mate” in her for this to become a very unfortunate situation–and he doesn’t even have to want to leave his wife for problems to arise! He only has to come to prefer his friend as a friend and confidant to the friendship and confidences he shares with his wife!

Once that happens, “we have a problem, Houston.”

 

[Cathoholic]

Jtauke. If when you said . . .

QUOTE:
So many people in this thread seem to see human beings as insatiable lust filled monsters

. . . . you were referring to my post (here - and I think you were as you quoted it), I’m going to have to take issue with your assertion.

That is a straw man fallacy. You are arguing against something I did not say or imply and is thus irrelevant. (It’s always easier to battle against a straw man, especially if your argument is weak)

My point has to do with avoiding the “near occasions” to sin, not insatiable lust monsters.

You said:

QUOTE:
In college I shared an apartment with 4 friends, 1 male and 3 female. Gotta say, they were all close friends, but I wasn’t ever attracted to any of them in a way that would make me pursue them, or allow them to pursue me.

What about a guy who might say (and these things DO occur):

QUOTE:
In college I shared an apartment with 4 friends, 1 male and 3 female. Gotta say, they were all close friends, but I wasn’t ever attracted to any of them in a way that would make me pursue them, or allow them to pursue me. But that changed over time and I had fallen for one of the gals and she for me, so I dumped my girlfriend.

Would THIS make your first argument . . . valid, invalid, or is it inconclusive and irrelevant?

We both know it is irrelevant to my point, and your experience.

You are putting too much weight on your own “personal experience”.

 

[jtauke]

Jtauke. If when you said . . .

QUOTE:
So many people in this thread seem to see human beings as insatiable lust filled monsters

. . . . you were referring to my post (here - and I think you were as you quoted it), I’m going to have to take issue with your assertion.

That is a straw man fallacy. You are arguing against something I did not say or imply and is thus irrelevant. (It’s always easier to battle against a straw man, especially if your argument is weak)

My point has to do with avoiding the “near occasions” to sin, not insatiable lust monsters.

You said:

QUOTE:
In college I shared an apartment with 4 friends, 1 male and 3 female. Gotta say, they were all close friends, but I wasn’t ever attracted to any of them in a way that would make me pursue them, or allow them to pursue me.

What about a guy who might say (and these things DO occur):

QUOTE:
In college I shared an apartment with 4 friends, 1 male and 3 female. Gotta say, they were all close friends, but I wasn’t ever attracted to any of them in a way that would make me pursue them, or allow them to pursue me. But that changed over time and I had fallen for one of the gals and she for me, so I dumped my girlfriend.

Would THIS make your first argument . . . valid, invalid, or is it inconclusive and irrelevant?

We both know it is irrelevant to my point, and your experience.

You are putting too much weight on your own “personal experience”.

I’m not putting to much weight on my experience. My experiences shape who I am.

What kind of love does one have for ones spouse if it’s shaken by a platonic friendship?

Sounds like the weak type of “love” that leads to divorce statistics. We’re Catholics when we marry, we make a sacramental vow to our future spouse and to God. People who are so easily tempted into breaking that vow by the “near occasion” of sin probably should NOT be getting married.

 

[Cathoholic]

I’m not putting to much weight on my experience. My experiences shape who I am.

The problem with this line of reasoning, is you are applying it to humanity.

Sounds like the weak type of “love” that leads to divorce statistics.

I disagree.

People who are so easily tempted into breaking that vow by the “near occasion” of sin probably should NOT be getting married.

This is a partial truth and has a built-in presumption I do not accept.

 

[jtauke]

Quote:
I’m not putting to much weight on my experience. My experiences shape who I am.

The problem with this line of reasoning, is you are applying it to humanity.

Sounds like the weak type of “love” that leads to divorce statistics.

I disagree.

People who are so easily tempted into breaking that vow by the “near occasion” of sin probably should NOT be getting married.

This is a partial truth and has a built-in presumption I do not accept.

You do a lot of disagreeing, yet don’t detail why you disagree…

 

[Allegra]

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having opposite sex friends that you see in social settings, but I would also be uncomfortable with private meetings or hanging out. Business related lunch meetings are not the same thing.

 

[AKDee]

The idea that ANY man is a temptation to ANY woman at ANY time and vice versa smacks of Jansenism to me…not orthodox Catholicism. We are not lust filled beasts with no self-control. Original sin tainted our natures to be sure, but utter depravity as taught by Luther is heresy.

I don’t think that’s what anyone is saying. But it is truly Catholic to avoid the near occasion of sin, because we recognize that certain situations are prone to causing sin. A man and a woman who are not in a relationship with each other hanging out alone and developing an emotionally intimate relationship frequently causes problems in marriages. Frequently. If you respect your spouse, why would you do something that will probably make them uncomfortable, possibly make them jealous, possibly cause problems for the other person’s relationship, and potentially lead to an emotional or physical affair?

 

[EasterJoy]

Quote:
I’m not putting to much weight on my experience. My experiences shape who I am.

Sounds like the weak type of “love” that leads to divorce statistics.

People who are so easily tempted into breaking that vow by the “near occasion” of sin probably should NOT be getting married.

If you remember 1 Corinthians 7, you know St. Paul thought that the easily-tempted were exactly the people who *ought to *get married. He thought those who were above temptation were better off staying unmarried, so as to serve the Lord without the distraction of having a spouse to please.

The “weak type of love” comment betrays the kind of arrogance that says, “we are not like those lust-driven people who have affairs after they get married” and “this could never happen to us.” Have you never heard that you should structure your environment to remove near occasions of behaviors you don’t want to do? This is simple psychology, common to the human race, not the psychology of the “weak.” Did Our Lord say to those who accused the woman caught in adultery, “Hey, give her a break, she’s weak”? No, he said, “let the one among you who is without sin cast the first stone at her.” It is no accident that the story reads, “they went away one by one, beginning with the elders.” (John 8:9) The older you get, the less likely you are to think you are a moral superhero who can safely discount the need to avoid near occasions of sin.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having opposite sex friends that you see in social settings, but I would also be uncomfortable with private meetings or hanging out. Business related lunch meetings are not the same thing.

It is the plan to pursue of male friends because they are male that raises the red flag for me. It is one thing to make a friend who happens to be a married person of the opposite sex and quite another to go looking for a crowd of them.

I don’t doubt she has good intentions. She probably either a) is stuck among women she does not fit in with who have husbands that make her feel socially comfortable or b) has had bad experiences with female friendships in the past and unconsciously thinks that “is the way women are.” I would not condemn her, but I would certainly caution any friend who wanted to do this that it is not a good way for a married woman to build her social circle.

 

[ephesians4]

I feel very strongly that the main person, the first person you should be discussing this with is your wife. A wife is from God. Different people have different standards and it is the mark of madness to insist on applying them to the world around us, so some real dialogue is required, I think.

I do understand where you’re coming from. I have dear female friends who I do not now have close friendships with because that’s not ok for married people I think.

Far from being outraged or calling it sexist etc. I choose to avoid this out of respect for my other half, and if I ever took it to the point where she felt she had to ask this, I would feel I had failed her.

Yes in theory it might not be her place to ask, but equally it is not my place to put her in the position where she would have to - freedom comes with responsibility.

Still who knows whether that applies to you and your life. Put us down and go pray, stay in communication with your wife. Good luck and God bless.

 

[LongingSoul]

Sounds like the weak type of “love” that leads to divorce statistics.

People who are so easily tempted into breaking that vow by the “near occasion” of sin probably should NOT be getting married.

You do a lot of disagreeing, yet don’t detail why you disagree…

Over a long time being involved with people afflicted by marriage breakdown and affairs and other family breakdown issues… I can catagorically tell you that most of the decent type people who fall into affairs say that the relationship began as a ‘really great friendship’. It was a Catholic counselling organisation so most of the clients were of the prior hereto good character and not serial cheaters or amoral as many modern people are.

You would think that people have good control over their feelings when they marry as many of our clients thought about themselves. The fact is that intimacy with another of the opposite sex is a minefield for the married. You would also think that if someone realised that their feelings had changed or a spark was detected, they would instantly withdraw back to the marriage with that… but alas, people continue to feel they have control of something well after it has developed beyond strict platonic friendship.

The main thing of course though is whether it causes a problem for the spouse. If it does it is a problem for the marriage. If a couple is perfectly happy with each other having intimate friends of the opposite sex, neither feeling uncomfortable with the other… they are probably the type of person you are describing. But it has to have the character of true mutual acceptance. The OPs wife may find it perfectly fine for her to do it but if her husband began sharing a friendship with another woman she might not find that so fine.

 

[E_7]

This is why it would be important for the wife of the original poster not to simply dismiss the feelings of her spouse in this situation. He is clearly uncomfortable with this situation so they need to come to some sort of agreement it’s not good for her to dismiss his feelings.

Yes.

 

[GreyWings]

If people really think a platonic friendship between a man and a woman cannot exist, remember St. Francis and St. Clare.

It can exist. But when marriage is involved, lines needs to be drawn and boundaries established. And the spouse’s feelings always, always come first.

The wife needs to ditch these friends for the sake of her husband’s, the OP’s, feelings. Period.

 

[Virga]

If people really think a platonic friendship between a man and a woman cannot exist, remember St. Francis and St. Clare.

I agree. There can be chaste friendships between men and women such as that between St. Francis and St. Clare. But although they weren’t married, they probably took great care to protect each other’s vocation as much as their own.

Good boundaries keep us from ending up in risky situations or places where we aren’t in control. We should be conscious of our situations as well as our friends’. Marriage definitely requires an even greater consideration for the spouse.

 

[daisybee]

Whether or not she thinks there " should be" no difference between men and women friends, the fact of the matter is that there IS a difference. It can be very easy to slide into emotional and physical affairs, fooling ourselves that it’s all fine and platonic right up the point where it isn’t. And it does no good at all to only go out with married men. Then you run the risk of breaking up not one but two marriages.

Well said.

In this Catholic News Agency article, writer Anthony Buono advised against opposite-sex friendships in dating and in marriage without the involvement of the significant other or the spouse, for the basic reason that you’ve described:

catholicnewsagency.com/column/do-opposite-sex-friendships-work-in-dating-513/

Affairs don’t begin from nothing.

 

[daisybee]

I agree. There can be chaste friendships between men and women such as that between St. Francis and St. Clare. But although they weren’t married, they probably **took great care to protect each other’s vocation **as much as their own.

This was emphasized in a biography of St. Francis that I read. I can’t remember the author; I believe the author was German.

In any case, in the biography, it is notable how little time St. Francis and St. Clare spent together. In the book they were depicted as having semi-private conferences (i.e., with other community members only a short distance away) perhaps 2 or 3 times at the most.

In addition, the biography describes St. Clare as sending multiple invitations to St. Francis to visit her and her community, and he did so very little (just a very limited number of times), because of an attempt to be prudent it seems, but also because he was so busy with his own labors.

He did pray for her community and show concern for their well-being through correspondence, and if I remember correctly the brothers in his community sometimes helped St. Clare’s community with supplies–as well as their own prayers of course.

 

[maryjk]

No one is saying all the people all of the time. They’re only saying that just one guy once out of the whole crowd and the whole time they know each other presents a real problem. The wife only has to have one married male friend think that he’s found his “true soul mate” in her for this to become a very unfortunate situation–and he doesn’t even have to want to leave his wife for problems to arise! He only has to come to prefer his friend as a friend and confidant to the friendship and confidences he shares with his wife!

Once that happens, “we have a problem, Houston.”

Oh, my, so true.

And it happened to me.

I was shocked.

It started as a simply friendship, with the family. Our kids played together. I loved his kids. Then the wife cheated, left the husband and moved in with her lover. We, my husband and I, stayed friends with the husband. And I kept in contact with the wife.

But it ended up that the husband was off work during the day, while I was home. And my husband worked during that time. My husband also isn’t Catholic, so he wasn’t at Mass with our son and me. But the other guy was there.

I had absolutely no interest in the guys. I as happy in my marriage. And I had no thought of ever cheating.

Very long story of the guy crying, figuratively, on my shoulder, calling me to express his sadness, ended with him sitting near me at Mass, putting his arm around his kids then resting his hand on my shoulder.

We were just friends. Of the family. And it took less than 60 days to come to this.

I moved down the pew, out of reach. And walked out of the church without saying anything. The next time he called, my husband answered and told him that neither of us was interested in him calling again.

It only takes one.

 

[E_7]

Oh, my, so true.

And it happened to me.

I was shocked.

It started as a simply friendship, with the family. Our kids played together. I loved his kids. Then the wife cheated, left the husband and moved in with her lover. We, my husband and I, stayed friends with the husband. And I kept in contact with the wife.

But it ended up that the husband was off work during the day, while I was home. And my husband worked during that time. My husband also isn’t Catholic, so he wasn’t at Mass with our son and me. But the other guy was there.

I had absolutely no interest in the guys. I as happy in my marriage. And I had no thought of ever cheating.

Very long story of the guy crying, figuratively, on my shoulder, calling me to express his sadness, ended with him sitting near me at Mass, putting his arm around his kids then resting his hand on my shoulder.

We were just friends. Of the family. And it took less than 60 days to come to this.

I moved down the pew, out of reach. And walked out of the church without saying anything. The next time he called, my husband answered and told him that neither of us was interested in him calling again.

It only takes one.

Wow. You an your husband did what was best for your marriage.

 

[GreyWings]

This was emphasized in a biography of St. Francis that I read. I can’t remember the author; I believe the author was German.

In any case, in the biography, it is notable how little time St. Francis and St. Clare spent together. In the book they were depicted as having semi-private conferences (i.e., with other community members only a short distance away) perhaps 2 or 3 times at the most.

In addition, the biography describes St. Clare as sending multiple invitations to St. Francis to visit her and her community, and he did so very little (just a very limited number of times), because of an attempt to be prudent it seems, but also because he was so busy with his own labors.

He did pray for her community and show concern for their well-being through correspondence, and if I remember correctly the brothers in his community sometimes helped St. Clare’s community with supplies–as well as their own prayers of course.

Yes, I have read about them as well and while they didn’t see each other often, they wrote loving letters to each other.

Yet, they were just friends mutually committed to their vocations and to God, however they did have a bond and influence on each other.

I think opposite sex friendships are fine but when married you have to act like it. For instance, my mother has a group of friends from her parish and they all have coffee and doughnuts together after mass. I have known these people for my entire life as I grew up with them. Sometimes it’s really okay to have friends of the opposite sex as long as there’s the boundary and limitations. My mother keeps these friendships at church. She doesn’t hang out with the men in her group alone outside of mass, ever - despite being friends for decades.

Now, my boyfriend has a married female friend and yes, he finds her attractive. This has bothered me. However I drew the line as a boundary: I don’t have a problem with them texting each other once in a while as they do, as long as there is intimacy held between he and I only; he doesn’t tell her stuff about me; that he doesn’t hang out with her alone. I also don’t want to hang out with her and her husband all the time as I would like to make other friends, too.
If my boyfriend and I marry we will be busy with our own married and family life, so I don’t see her really been a thorn in my side, especially since I am Catholic and want more Catholic friends.

 

[maryjk]

Wow. You an your husband did what was best for your marriage.

It really comes down to this.

Married people have to protect their marriage. It can be attacked at any time. Without warning.

It simply doesn’t make sense to purposefully put your marriage into a situation where it can be harmed.

 

[E_7]

It really comes down to this.

Married people have to protect their marriage. It can be attacked at any time. Without warning.

It simply doesn’t make sense to purposefully put your marriage into a situation where it can be harmed.

Exactly.