Wife has given up

[Irish_Girl_68]

Sheeniac, you may be on to something regarding my wife’s self-confidence. She has admitted to not being good with numbers (she’s told both my kids that I’m the one who has to help them with their math) and that she could not do a budget if we were to divorce. I’ve admitted to her that the times the she says I’ve treated her like s*** were likely regarding spending that I felt was too much. Some of our monthly credit cards bill have been more that what most people make in a month. I’ve tried to emphasize the virtue of saving, especially for retirement and college for the kids. My wife would rather spend the money now, as she feels that’s what it’s for. This has been a source of tension for years, and one I would like to address with marriage counseling. She doesn’t want me to be controlling, yet we conflict regarding how we should save/spend. I suspect I undermine her self-confidence in this area, which has contributed to her resentment. I don’t know if we can move forward on our marriage if we don’t address this area formally with a marriage counselor.

I’ve tried the “confronting the past” approach. All that seem to do is get her upset again, without relieving the pain. She continues to cry about my not holding her hand on the beach and not being there when her mom died 6 years ago. She just can’t let go of the hurt.

Tucdoc, is there a way you can possibly “empower” your wife with some of the finances? I understand she “isn’t good with money” (my own Mom is the same way), but perhaps she isn’t good with it because she wasn’t taught properly as a young woman and as an adult her spouse made a healthy enough income she didn’t have to be as disciplined? BTW, that’s not an indictment of either one of you…just relaying my own Mom’s experience.

You’ve mentioned your wife would like to do some home renovations. Would it be in the family budget to consider this, put her in charge of contacting the contractors, negotiating prices, hiring workers, etc? I’m not talking about a free-for-all where she just hands over the VISA. I mean starting with estimates, drawing up a proposal you both can agree upon and then letting her handle it from there. I get the sense she feels unappreciated as a partner in your marriage and the whole baseball thing is her way of acting out. Perhaps if she had a more suitable way to fill her time (and one she felt you trusted her to handle) she wouldn’t feel as controlled and unhappy. Just a thought. You and your wife are still in my prayers.

 

[tucdoc]

Quite frankly, if there is a possibility that I will have to leave my home, then I’m really not interested in investing a lot to renovate. There are repairs that need to be done first. I gave her a lot of credit when she picked our house, and was honest with her in saying that I was O.K. with moving after she had sold her mom’s house after her mom had died. Admittedly, this all happened in 2005-2006, when home sales were easier. Still, I congradulated her on selling two houses (her mom’s and ours) in less than 1 year.

The real question I have for the group is that if a wife has said she is no longer in love with her husband, is it possible for her to ever be in love again? My feeling is that love is a decision you make, but that is only how I think. She seems to think she can’t love me anymore. Maybe for her it doesn’t matter what anybody else thinks.

 

[Irish_Girl_68]

Quite frankly, if there is a possibility that I will have to leave my home, then I’m really not interested in investing a lot to renovate. There are repairs that need to be done first. I gave her a lot of credit when she picked our house, and was honest with her in saying that I was O.K. with moving after she had sold her mom’s house after her mom had died. Admittedly, this all happened in 2005-2006, when home sales were easier. Still, I congradulated her on selling two houses (her mom’s and ours) in less than 1 year.

The real question I have for the group is that if a wife has said she is no longer in love with her husband, is it possible for her to ever be in love again? My feeling is that love is a decision you make, but that is only how I think. She seems to think she can’t love me anymore. Maybe for her it doesn’t matter what anybody else thinks.

I certainly don’t disagree with your analysis regarding the money per se. But, could you start with a small project; something that wouldn’t kill you financially but would still give her some financial freedom and feel like she had some say-so? I entirely agree with you from a practical standpoint, but you’re trying to save your marriage, here. Perhaps if you show your wife that you trust her to handle a small financial-based project intelligently she will feel as if you have more faith in her…and in the relationship. Again, just a thought.

As to your other question; yes, I believe it is possible for your wife to love you again. Love, as you’ve stated, is a choice. You are an excellent example of this; you are choosing to love your wife in spite of her behavior. But, it is a conscious decision and she must be willing to make it.

 

[tucdoc]

Right now she is recovering from a dental procedure that cost $2000 out of pocket. I said nothing about the cost as it was something she needed to have done. I took the day off work to drive her to the appt. and to be with her while she recovered from the IV sedation. I bought her all the soft food she wanted. She said she appreciated me being with her. I just called her and she said she is not too uncomfortable after taking her meds.

I have no problem with paying for things if they are necessary. Both kids need braces, so they got them. The Target bill was $500 this month because of school supplies, no problem. I just don’t like our monthly debt to be more than most people make in a month. When we spend more in one area, we should spend less in another. If we go on vacation, then we need to budget for that before and after the vacation, not spend as we would if there was no trip.

I’m taking any compliment I can from my wife. I’m trying to show her that she doesn’t need to be unhappy. But I had previously told her that I can’t make her happy because happiness (like love) is a decision. Her take is how can I not make her happy if I can make her so unhappy (again, all my fault)?

 

[EasterJoy]

The real question I have for the group is that if a wife has said she is no longer in love with her husband, is it possible for her to ever be in love again? My feeling is that love is a decision you make, but that is only how I think. She seems to think she can’t love me anymore. Maybe for her it doesn’t matter what anybody else thinks.

As I understand it, this is the way it seems to go. When we get married, we have a “story” into which we fit the memories and expectations of our relationship. It is positive, downplaying or being humorous about the rough spots, grateful for the good spots. If a marriage begins to break down, though, and there is an alienation of affection, that overarching “story” is re-written. The good spots are considered of little value or as losses that have receded far into the past. The bad spots are considered evidence “of what our marriage has really been like”. In other words, the lens through which we view the relationship changes entirely. Our behavior follows suit, and it is a vicious cycle.

Evidence that this has happened are what John Gottman calls “the Four Horsemen of the Apocolypse”: 1) personally-aimed criticism, 2) defensiveness–both in making excuses for oneself or meeting criticism coming in with counter complaints–3) words or shows of contempt, and 4) “stonewalling”: the “silent treatment” withdrawal of physical presence, behaviors bespeaking love and affection, or attention, as a reaction to conflict.

The way back is to ban the Four Horsemen and to re-write that overarching story. The way to do that is to infuse the situation with positives–whether in a dispute or outside of it–and to get rid of habits that reinforce the negative story. Just as re-writing the story negatively can be a vicious cycle, positives and new skills can sometimes also get a marriage into an upward spiral. Obviously, you have these in your marriage. They need to be stopped, starting with you, but not so much by stopping them as by replacing bad habits with good ones. When things overheat, the bad habits do not go away unless there is a better habit to use in its place!

There are many web sites that talk about John Gottman’s research on this topic, but this one is as good a summary as any: psychpage.com/family/library/gottman.html

By the way, your wife has a thing for baseball right now. Most issues in marriage are not solved, but managed. Let your wife know that you’re willing to manage the baseball thing with her. You’re not looking to eliminate it, because it is important to her. You just want put it in boundaries that help you feel better about how it fits into your marriage. She won’t let go of it until it ceases to be a way in which she asserts her need to be her own person. Fight over that, and you can wave goodbye.

 

[EasterJoy]

Right now she is recovering from a dental procedure that cost $2000 out of pocket. I said nothing about the cost as it was something she needed to have done. I took the day off work to drive her to the appt. and to be with her while she recovered from the IV sedation. I bought her all the soft food she wanted. She said she appreciated me being with her. I just called her and she said she is not too uncomfortable after taking her meds.

I have no problem with paying for things if they are necessary. Both kids need braces, so they got them. The Target bill was $500 this month because of school supplies, no problem. I just don’t like our monthly debt to be more than most people make in a month. When we spend more in one area, we should spend less in another. If we go on vacation, then we need to budget for that before and after the vacation, not spend as we would if there was no trip.

I’m taking any compliment I can from my wife. I’m trying to show her that she doesn’t need to be unhappy. But I had previously told her that I can’t make her happy because happiness (like love) is a decision. Her take is how can I not make her happy if I can make her so unhappy (again, all my fault)?

Again, make the money about you as a couple, your concerns about you as a couple. Not “I will give you money, if I think it is necessary” but “we have to be careful with our finances, so we’ll be able to go to baseball games when we retire, too. Even if I don’t go, we can’t have you in the nosebleed seats when you’re 80!”

About the guys: Not “these guys are going to move in on me, they must want one thing from you” but “You may think they are just friends, they may think you are just friends, they seem nice enough guys to me, but you are a wonderful and attractive woman, and I don’t think it is a good idea to get the propane too close to the dynamite. Besides, I married you because you would make the best friend in the world. Married people need friends, but I don’t want to lose the great affection that made me want to marry you. Can you blame me…I want to be one of your guy friends, too!”

In other words, talk about what she ought to be doing as being identical to that which will make you both very happy, not as something she owes you. (She does owe you, because of her vows, but that’s not the point. Obligation isn’t a motivator for her right now. Talk in terms that will motivate her.)

PS They may be taking her out to the ballgame, but you’re the guy who’s there with the bavarian cream when she feels like garbage and looks like a chipmunk. Good husband! Here is your perfect opportunity for that intimate night together that has no possibility for sex!!! Ask again if there is anything in the realm of soft food that she’s remembered that she would like, go rent “A League of Their Own” and sit and watch it with her in her Vicodin haze. I don’t think she’ll forget it.

Oh, and if her gums are bleeding, get her some Lipton tea bags to chomp on. They really did the trick for my wisdom teeth. We women love those thoughtful gestures like that.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is a simple case of selfishness, nothing more.

A wife should never seek emotional gratification from another man. NEVER.

She is selfishly re-writing the marital history to justify in her mind the fact she has a boyfriend AND a husband.

Bootprint needed on wifey’s behind.

It is not right to put up with actual abuse and of course you don’t act like having an affair is perfectly fine or a reasonable response to a spouse whom you are accusing of failing as a spouse. If you’re not willing to put yourself out 100% during the times when your spouse is blindly giving himself or herself permission to be a self-absorbed jerk, though, don’t get married. You never know who will give himself or herself permission for nonsense like that.

If the OP becomes the best husband he can be, to work on his faults first and trust that she’s address her faults later, and she still leaves, then he can watch her go with a clear conscience. I hope I would do as much. I admire him for trying.

 

[tucdoc]

Right now it is difficult to talk about our relationship without her crying and blaming me for her unhappiness. It would be difficult for me to bring up these “friends” in a positive light as I already accused her of having emotional affairs with them. I’ve already admitted that I did not meet her emotional needs and that is likely why she befriended these guys as they make her feel special. She won’t even let me hug her or kiss her goodnight, and right now she will just watch one baseball game after another. All I can do is listen to her and be supportive of her as a sign that I’m becoming a better person. It’s so difficult when it’s hard to know what she is really thinking, but I know it’s the right thing to do.

 

[EasterJoy]

Right now it is difficult to talk about our relationship without her crying and blaming me for her unhappiness. It would be difficult for me to bring up these “friends” in a positive light as I already accused her of having emotional affairs with them. I’ve already admitted that I did not meet her emotional needs and that is likely why she befriended these guys as they make her feel special. She won’t even let me hug her or kiss her goodnight, and right now she will just watch one baseball game after another. All I can do is listen to her and be supportive of her as a sign that I’m becoming a better person. It’s so difficult when it’s hard to know what she is really thinking, but I know it’s the right thing to do.

You may be far from a perfect husband, but you are a lovable person just as you are. The same is true of her. God sees this in a different way than the two of you do. Where you see a rude awakening, perhaps God sees winter thawing into spring. He won’t let a cold snap or two change his mind. Don’t you, either. I don’t know what’s happening with your wife, but I think you’re thawing out and sprouting right now.

If it upsets her and leads to blaming if she talks about it, then don’t talk about it, at least not for awhile. If you need to tell her about your desire to change things, then you’re going to have to preach without words. That’s the most believable testimony, anyway. Maybe you’re a crocus coming up next to a bunch of sticks coated in thorns, but with time, you may be sharing your soil with a rose. In any case, leaves unfurl in their own time, and almost never at the same speed in the entire garden.

There are things you can do that mean more than a hug. Make the eggs the way she likes them, buy the salad dressing she likes. Do the jobs she hates to do. Meet her needs as you understand them without counting the cost. The way you are supporting her through her dental work is a very good example.

Also, if all she wants to do is watch TV, she might be depressed, she might be self-medicating emotional pain with distractions. That might be pain that ultimately has nothing to do with you, but that she is now projecting on to you. Tell her you are concerned about how unhappy she is, and ask her if what she needs isn’t to look into your marriage, but to look into counselling just for her and her own emotional well-being. You aren’t more likely to lose her than way than if she tries to figure her situation out on her own. Your concern for her over what she thinks you want from her may be a form of caring that affects her view of you very deeply.

If the topic of the “friends” does come up, you can qualify what you’ve said before. You can say, “I’m willing to believe that you’re just friends. Certainly I can believe you if you say you had no intention of cheating on me. It is mostly that it is obvious to anyone that you are beautiful and fun. I don’t want to lose you, and I know how affairs happen to very good people. If you were my friend instead of my wife, I know I’d fall in love with you all over again. How can I think that any other man would feel differently? If you two are the last to know that you’ve fallen in love, if you never meant to hurt me, it wouldn’t make it any easier to lose you. I hope you see what I mean.” In other words make your fears a matter of how attractive she is, and not a statement that you think she and her friends are morally bankrupt. After all, whether or not they are, you’d still have room to worry.

But while you do all of this, allow yourself to re-write your own story about yourself. Rather than telling yourself over and over that “I did not meet her emotional needs”, tell yourself, “I was blind, but by grace I’m going to learn to see” and “now that I know better, I’m going to learn to do better.” and “I’m not going to let my failures stop me. I’m going to learn from them”…

I tell you to do this because of a lesson I learned with myself: If I have resentment in my heart towards someone else, the first thing I need to find compassion with are my own faults, especially the ones that are in play between me and the person I’m on the outs with. When I am compassionate with my part in a falling out, I can be more at peace with the mistakes the other person made. But if I am hard on myself, I am only that much harder on them, too. I don’t know about you, but I can’t help it. If you are guilty of something, repent, confess, and then let go. It is what makes compassion towards those who sin against you even possible.

 

[tucdoc]

EasterJoy, thank you again for your thoughtful words. I know it’s going to take time for healing. It’s just that right now my wife is being so bitter with me while I’m trying to show my concern for her. I realize I hurt her with my inattention to her. She is also mad about others seeing her relationship with her “friends” as more than just friendship, which she feels that I instigated. We have both made mistakes, I have admitted to mine, she has admitted to nothing. I’ve told her that I thought she was depressed, and even suggested staying at a resort-like facility to deal with any behavioral issues. She still communicates with her “friend” as he helps her with her Scrabble words on her I-pad. I’ve told her I don’t feel comfortable with her continuing to communicate with him, but she doesn’t care. I’m trying not to lose hope.

Can I get any credit for this experience toward purgatory time? Just a thought.

 

[bettyg51]

Here are my thoughts:
Have you heard about Marriage Encounter or Retrovaille? How about the book about the 5 Love Languages by Dr. Gary Chapman?
5lovelanguages.com/learn-the-languages/the-five-love-languages/
5lovelanguages.com/learn-the-languages/the-five-languages-of-apology/

I got a lot out of “Don’t Sweat the Small Stuff” book and Theology of the Body for Beginners by Christopher West.
We’ve been married 25 years and we’re still working on it. For years, I prayed for my husband to change without results. It was only when I prayed for God to change my heart that I started getting somewhere. Forgiving 70 times 7 is only a drop in the bucket of what a life long commitment will require. Only God can give us the grace to do that. That’s why we need the sacraments. Love is a decision, not an emotion. It is a verb, not a noun.

Natural Family Planning helps to add a cycle of courtship and honeymoon that improves many marriages.
Remember how special your honeymoon was? Go on a vacation without the kids.
Go back to the places where you went when you were dating to remember the good times. Get out the wedding pictures. Remember the dreams you had.
Find a common ministry or hobby you both enjoy.
Watch baseball on TV together and read the sports page even if you don’t like baseball. What is it about baseball that attracts her attention? Is it a distraction from problems she needs to face?
Think about how her dad treated her mother. Any family of origin issues?
One example we use when we lead marriage preparation class is the story about the guy who dies and is getting a tour of hell and heaven. In hell, he sees that everyone is starving, though there is plenty of food on the table. The problem is that they cannot bend their elbows. Then he looks at heaven. He sees that everyone is happy and well fed, though they cannot bend their elbows either. The difference is that they are all feeding each other.
Marriage is like that. It requires the maturity to give even when it hurts and you don’t get as much back as you want. Pulling back from intimacy makes the situation worse instead of evening the score. Jesus will help the one who is humble enough to do what He calls you to do - love as He does. “Husbands love your wife as Christ loves the Church.” Eph 5.

 

[tucdoc]

EasterJoy, I followed your advised. I told her she was beautiful (she laughed, why?), and if I didn’t think so I wouldn’t have married her. I told her she was attractive to me, which makes her attractive to other men. I said I believed her when she said her friends were “just friends” but that it could easily slip into an affair because she is so beautiful. Why else would these guys want to be her friend. She admitted that they have complemented her on her looks. I admitted that I had said hurtful words to her since she developed these “friendships”, but only because I thought I was losing her. She claims that I had lost her even before she met these guys (maybe why she spent so much time with them). I really didn’t think we had a problem until these guys showed up, but she says we did. I knew she was shaken up by her favorite pitcher being traded to Detroit at the end of last year, but I would have never equated it with the loss of her mom. She claims that, although not as intense, it was a loss to her nonetheless. Is it possible that she started becoming depressed again from a baseball transaction, which made her look at our relationship so negatively that she would only find comfort with fellow baseball fans?

I also said I was concerned about her health, and regardless of what happens to our marriage, I urged her to seek conseling at least for herself. She says that she is basically waiting until she reaches a certain threshold, and then she will call a lawyer. I asked her to call a therapist before a lawyer. I asked her to do it for us and for our kids, so that we can say that we tried everything and that we have no regrets if things don’t work out. Also, if this is more than a situational issue, and if there is a hereditary component (she comes from a family of alcoholics), then we owe it to our kids in case they have issues in the future. She didn’t like me bringing in the kids, but the reality is they are being affected and will be affected by any mental condition that runs in the families. I asked her to consider three months of counseling, individual or couples.

I also told her I pray everyday for peace for both of us. I actually have asked God to soften my wife’s hardened heart. But it’s His will, not mine, to be done.

Bettyg51, thanks for joining this thread. My wife’s childhood was not happy. The alcoholism made for much yelling between the parents. Rather than this approach, she has internalized all her discontent and disappointed. She finally admitted that SHE WAS TO BLAME for keeping it all in. That is a breakthrough for her, since she was blaming me for everything. Baseball is an escape for her, an escape from an unhappy marriage. Despite my best efforts, she doesn’t accept that the marriage doesn’t have to be unhappy.
She has no interest in any marriage workshops which would involve us talking to each other. This is very hurtful to me since we did Engaged Encounter prior to being married and found it very rewarding. Overall, it doesn’t look good.

 

[EasterJoy]

She finally admitted that SHE WAS TO BLAME for keeping it all in. That is a breakthrough for her, since she was blaming me for everything.

Let her know that you want to know where you’ve gone wrong between you and her and where she has had needs that you haven’t met, so you can change what you need to change and love her the way she deserves to be loved. Let her know, though, that you are not interested in the least in blaming her or blaming yourself. Blame is useless. What is needed is figuring out how to help her feel better now, and for the rest of her life, with or without you. Say that as often as the issue of her blaming herself comes up. Taking responsibility: great. Blaming: let’s not go there.

If you say, “Listen, you kept it in because you felt it was the best thing to do. Don’t beat yourself up about that. Now that you know better, do better, but let’s concern ourselves more with doing better today than what ought to have gone differently yesterday.” If she grew up with alcoholics, this may sound like talk from Mars. If she tries it, though, she’s going to like it.

Now that you’ve talked to her, though–and let me say, good for you, that wasn’t easy!–let her mostly have a little rest from talk, and let your walk match what you say. I think she’s at least considering re-writing the story in her head. She must not feel you’re running the process. Patience is key. It is going to be very hard, but don’t grab her pencil!

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy, I followed your advised. I told her she was beautiful (she laughed, why?), and if I didn’t think so I wouldn’t have married her.

Feeling presentable isn’t that hard, maybe, but feeling beautiful takes more inner health than you might think. If you’re down on yourself, you have goggles on that keeps you from seeing anything good in the mirror. That goes for your life, your husband, your choices…well, you get the picture.

Considering the conflicted nature of her childhood, I’d expect the grief and mixed emotions about her mom and her mom’s death to pop up in all sorts of places.

 

[EasterJoy]

I also said I was concerned about her health, and regardless of what happens to our marriage, I urged her to seek conseling at least for herself. She says that she is basically waiting until she reaches a certain threshold, and then she will call a lawyer. I asked her to call a therapist before a lawyer. I asked her to do it for us and for our kids, so that we can say that we tried everything and that we have no regrets if things don’t work out.

Rather, “If it might make you feel better, if it truly helps you find the peace in your soul that you deserve, I don’t want you to wait another day. I love you. I have been so blind to your needs. I’m so sorry. Now that I see that, I want to do anything to help you be truly happy. I don’t care what it costs. Even if it makes life harder on me, or even harder on the kids, if it frees you for the rest of your life from the pain you’re going through now, it will be more than worth it.”

 

[tucdoc]

She has said she feels most at peace when I’m not around. She may feel that divorce is the only way that she will find peace. I would prefer to be in her life more than just discussing alimony/child support. Even here, she is aware that I could make life difficult. I would prefer that we stay together, but I know that is a decision that she also needs to make. For my sake, I’m trying to be at peace, regardless of the outcome.

 

[faithfully]

Out of curiosity… Has the monthly credit card bill been an issue your ENTIRE marriage? Or has it been an issue in the last several years?

I ask because excessive spending is commonly a sign of depression as well. A person can get a little high with each purchase… just wondering if this has started in the last 6 years? (which only MIGHT be an indicator of how long she’s been really feeling so low)

Anyhow… seems like things are moving a long a bit better… still thinking and praying for you two…

 

[tucdoc]

The credit card issues has been a problem to some degree before her mom died, but more so afterwards. I accepted the bills that came when the kids were born, started school, when we moved, with vacations. I know the bill is going to be high this month as we booked flights for all 4 of us to go to a wedding our of state. It’s the bills when there aren’t big expected expenses that would upset. me. Even with the discussion from today, she complained about not being able to buy a new Louis Viton (sp?) purse to put her I-pad in. I told her today that we need to have a better way to decide on how to spend our money. I feel this is a crucial piece missing in our marriage, that we need a better strategy from a third person to implement. I don’t think my wife wants limits, that’s part of the reason my resentment built up. I’ve told her in the past “it’s never enough, is it.” She says I care about money more than her. I just want us to lead comfortable, rather than extravagant, lives, and to be able to handle future expenses. She realizes that if we divorce the kids will have to now incur debt if they choose to go to any college they want, regardless of price. She also realizes a new car for her would be out of the question. Her SUV is from 2001, but only has 70K miles and is in great shape.

 

[EasterJoy]

She has said she feels most at peace when I’m not around. She may feel that divorce is the only way that she will find peace. I would prefer to be in her life more than just discussing alimony/child support. Even here, she is aware that I could make life difficult. I would prefer that we stay together, but I know that is a decision that she also needs to make. For my sake, I’m trying to be at peace, regardless of the outcome.

Since she won’t consent to couples therapy, I hope you’ll be able to save your marriage by getting her to take care of herself. It’s not the most direct route, but it’s a good path that she might take. While there is always the possibility that therapy could make matters worse, I think the patient (your marriage) is unlikely to recover without that treatment. What she learns in making herself better may be the only way to get her to learn to see your marriage differently. We can only hope.

Trying to stay at peace is a good tack. You need to be healthy, too, if you’re going to become what you are intent on becoming.

So I’ll leave you with what I tell my kids when times are bad. Look at the Cross. God does not guarantee that bad things do not happen to those whom he loves. We are still in a vale of tears. He does promise, though, that for those who are faithful, he can take even the worst thing in the world, and make it into the best thing in the world. The best thing you can do is in the direction you’re going: keep looking for God’s will in your life, do that, and leave the results up to God.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Your wife has been upset about these things for years upon years and they kept eating her up more and more everyday. Shes done with you at this point and its either too late, or you will need SERIOUS counseling. Oh, and in response to ‘the bucket’

what is your deal with the whole ‘sex’ thing?

you said that his wife cannot deny him sex? What the heck. She can deny sex with him all she wants. he does not control her. I dont care if they’re married or not, he should not make her have sex if she does not want it.