Wife has given up

  • Thread starter Thread starter tucdoc
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Tucdoc,
You are not wrong for your feelings, you can’t help feelings but only the actions taken based on them. Long post, bear with me, I think I have a point.

We are human, we all have the need to feel close to someone, for guys- to find that person who inspires us to be worthy of them. I do miss the sex, but only because of what it was a part of. The feeling and belief that I was part of something bigger- a true partnership, that someone had accepted me completely, the feeling that somewhere in this world was someone who truly had my back, that I could trust, that I could turn to when I was in need. Being able to be there for someone, have their back, be there in their need, give myself to, wanting to earn their trust and prove myself to them everyday. The true intimacy it was a part and parcel of.

I’m probably projecting a lot of my stuff on to you. Sorry. Divorce or separation takes something from you, in some ways it may be the end of a struggle. But it’s your exit from a battle you truly wanted to win with heart and soul. Yes, when the struggle ends there may be some relief, but there’s also the realization that the battle is lost. (Well, I tend to think that the war is still on and hoping to re-engage) But I am missing something now, I am utterly alone in a very crucial way- and finding someone else can’t replace that. Yes, I have my kids, for now, but I am raising them to leave me. That is the natural progression and goal, and it’s not their job to have my back, or be there for me. My time with them is precious precisely for the reason that the end state is their independence.

As much as people might think that moving on is finding that next relationship, for me at least, it truly isn’t. First, it’s taking care of those I love- my kids. I think this will be the same for you. Rushing into anything can have serious affects on them, and your relationship with them. Be careful. Be methodical. Second, it’s knowing myself and dealing with whatever I did/didn’t do that has led to this. My ex rushed into something new, but it’s wreaking a lot of havoc, is she going to regret that later? I think so, but it’s irrelevant to me. Whether she is sad/happy/regretful won’t add/subtract any happiness from my life.

I don’t remember how old your kids are, but you will always have known them longer than any new person in your life. They should always be the priority. My kids tell me I deserve to have someone, but I tell them that to be fair to someone new- I would have to make them a priority. How could I contemplate making someone I haven’t even met yet a competing priority to even my youngest who I’ve known 12 years? And kids do see the new relationships as competition for time and affection. Trust me on that. The practicalities of juggling kids and a new relationship are pretty tough, second marriages have a much higher divorce rate than first marriages.

Which brings me to my point. God’s rules tend to support us having happier lives, even when they seem tough on us. The examination of a marriages validity, the length in getting an annullment, IMHO, are a good thing from a very human perspective. I’m in no condition to get into a relationship with anyone- it would be all take and no give. I’m too damaged to be there for someone, it would be all selfishness, trying to replace/recover something for me vice trying to be worthy of someone else, to be as committed as I am to my first marriage. Even if somehow the Church would declare my marriage invalid this second, I have no business entering a relationship without knowing I can give that new person every bit as much, they will deserve nothing less. One of the saddest things I ever saw was a man who was engaged to be married a second time, going to his ex and telling her he’d call off his wedding if she’d take him back.

Perhaps you are a better man than I in that respect. But I do urge caution and respectful obedience to the Church and the wisdom God has blessed it with as a practical matter.
 
BlueShadow123 said:
Alright. Well I was just saying if he looks for somebody, he will find a person.
Click to expand...
That is, that if it does not work out, perhaps it will turn out to have been an invalid attempt at marriage, and he will yet have a true marriage in his life. If he and his wife do not succeed in getting this marriage to work, one would hope that it was because it truly was not possible, yes. We hope he will find a true and lasting marriage. That is a nice thought, because he does seem to be a man who is truly committed to fidelity. It is good to think of him as happily married some day.

That is getting the cart before the horse, though. Better to do what can be done for this marriage, be faithful in toay’s work and the hope that his marriage is valid and can be saved, and not assume anything about what is coming down the road. Still, it does not hurt to remember that this present suffering will not last forever.
 
I guess I don’t understand, Tuc, why you can’t seek “companionship” NOW, even while married.

You haven’t indicated that you think you might go for an annulement. And you’ve made it very clear that you plan to always go with the Catholic teaching.

So, as you know, without an annullement, you aren’t allowed any type of “companionship” that you aren’t already allowed.

That said, I’d imagine it very hard to continue following the teachings of the church, should you end up civilly divorced. I hope you don’t already have your eyes peeled for possibility. That will interferre with any chance of reconcilliation.

It’s just that, at the beginning of this thread you talk about how your wife won’t follow the Catholic teachings of the Church. You made a big deal out of this. And so I wonder if it’s more that she won’t follow the rules YOU believe should be followed. You almost sound like you plan to break this rule if she divorces you civilly. That’s hypocritical. And makes me think you should lighten up on her ability to follow rules.

You misunderstood what I meant by “trapped in a marriage.” I don’t mean that she can go out an do these material things while married… Going off to a baseball game is material… NOT necessary to the success of a marriage… that’s not generally considered a component to intimcy. Let me give you an outside marriage example.

Years ago, I was working in a really awful job. Well, the job was ok, it was my manger. The woman was NUTZ! I was not the ONLY one to think so. She could be very sweet and charming, but if she got angry at you, because her hormones or brain chemistry was off, she was insanely abusive. I took it for a while, I wanted the job experience. Anyhow, after 7 years of trying to get PG, it finally happened… and you know what she said to me when I told her… “Well, you’re stuck here now… You need your medical insurance. You’ll never get another job if they know you’re PG.” She really felt she had me hostage. (I KNOW you don’t think you have your wife hostage.) But how do you think I WOULD HAVE FELT, if I didn’t actually have med. insurance through my husband and not that awful job. Needless to say, I quit my job within weeks. She really took my PG personally. And I didn’t want to risk my health or my babies.

And so, MY JOB was material in nature. It certainly didn’t have any sacramental value (something your wife doesn’t seem to attach to marriage). It was a place that made me feel terrible. Dealing with her made me hard to deal with at home (DH would dare say:eek:) I happen to be an awesome employee and I know it. My manager on the other hand, well, she offered NOTHING but $$. Clearly, I could get that elsewhere…

And hey, I get not wanting to be in a marriage where you’re made to feel unwelcome. Please don’t think I’m discounting your feelings. It’s not right. What either of you are going through. I just don’t gather you’re the only one with these feelings. I actually think you’re of the same frame of mind that your wife is. She’s not showing you compassion as you understand it… and you want out. You seem to be saying what she’s saying. You want to feel wanted. You probably feel you’d be a better dad to your kids (I don’t mean to put words in your mouth) In the way you write, you two are so much a like it’s unreal. I wonder if you realize that you portray yourself almost in the same way you write about her? I pray that your wife creates some room for reconciliation… You are both in a different space with how you will deal and cope. I suspect once divorce proceedings are started. You will have caught up to her mentality. I pray you BOTH can learn and act on what a marriage should really be. Not about the things, and the places… You will both be more rich for that! And it won’t be a wealth you can spend or ever lose!

I wish you a Happy Thanksgiving. You seemingly have your health. Your children are healthy and sound loving. You seem to have a successfull practice. I pray that you and your wife have retained some tiny ability to figure this out… I Pray you have THAT to be thankful for.

May you find the blessing in this mess!!!
 
EasterJoy said:
That is, that if it does not work out, perhaps it will turn out to have been an invalid attempt at marriage, and he will yet have a true marriage in his life. If he and his wife do not succeed in getting this marriage to work, one would hope that it was because it truly was not possible, yes. We hope he will find a true and lasting marriage. That is a nice thought, because he does seem to be a man who is truly committed to fidelity. It is good to think of him as happily married some day.

That is getting the cart before the horse, though. Better to do what can be done for this marriage, be faithful in toay’s work and the hope that his marriage is valid and can be saved, and not assume anything about what is coming down the road. Still, it does not hurt to remember that this present suffering will not last forever.
Click to expand...
Ive already given him all the advice that I could, and I told him to stick by his wifes side. I do know that divorce is a very real thing though, and if it does happen to him (by wifes will), he will be okay eventually. I do think he could find somebody again later in life too if he was looking for love. I think everybody can find it if they look for it.
 
BlueShadow123 said:
Children aren’t stupid. They probably wouldn’t want them to be together if they are putting on a show. That is absolutely ridiculous. I’m sure those kids knew their parents weren’t actually happy.
Click to expand...
I never inferred they should hide their troubles from their children. I merely offered one legitimate adult solution for an adult problem.

Indeed, I encouraged for their children to get counseling while his wife wanted to conceal their problems until any divorce was final.
 
BlueShadow123 said:
Ive already given him all the advice that I could, and I told him to stick by his wifes side. I do know that divorce is a very real thing though, and if it does happen to him (by wifes will), he will be okay eventually. I do think he could find somebody again later in life too if he was looking for love. I think everybody can find it if they look for it.
Click to expand...
BlueShadow, I was agreeing with you. He seems a very solid fellow, and I’m sure that if it turns out that his marriage is invalid, he will not lack for someone who would want him as a husband. It was nice of you to encourage him about that.

What qui est ce was pointing out is that getting a divorce after you have tried very hard to save your marriage does not automatically mean that the Church will find the marriage was invalid. The spouses in a fully valid marriage can find it impossible to live with each other, can even be in a position where a civil divorce is morally permissible, because of the choice of one or both of them to sin, but not be candidates for an annulment. This is because the choice to sin against your marriage does not prove the original consent to marry was not valid. If the consent was valid when the marriage began, it is always valid. The parties are still married, even if they go through the legal steps to divide their assets and see to the welfare of their children: that is, legal separation or civil divorce. They are not free to re-marry or to conduct themselves as unmarried persons. You basically have to live as people do when their spouses are deployed somewhere out of contact. You support them from afar, as circumstances permit, and you don’t start another romance on the side.

If tucdoc’s marriage is valid, then he is and will be no more able to seek the companionship of women than if he were living happily with his wife, for as long as his wife lives, even if she abandons him and re-marries herself outside the Church. Her adultery and abandonment would nott make it OK for him to do the same thing. He can have female friends, of course, but not even the rituals of courtship with someone not a spouse are allowed to people validly married in the Catholic Church, not even people who have gone through a civil divorce. Friendships outside a valid marriage cannot be romantic in nature or give the appearance of being romantic in nature, even after civil divorce, not as long as both of the spouses are alive.

I hope that helps.
 
SonCatcher said:
I never inferred they should hide their troubles from their children. I merely offered one legitimate adult solution for an adult problem.

Indeed, I encouraged for their children to get counseling while his wife wanted to conceal their problems until any divorce was final.
Click to expand...
Putting on an act of happiness is fake. And the will know that.
 
EasterJoy said:
BlueShadow, I was agreeing with you. He seems a very solid fellow, and I’m sure that if it turns out that his marriage is invalid, he will not lack for someone who would want him as a husband. It was nice of you to encourage him about that.

What qui est ce was pointing out is that getting a divorce after you have tried very hard to save your marriage does not automatically mean that the Church will find the marriage was invalid. The spouses in a fully valid marriage can find it impossible to live with each other, can even be in a position where a civil divorce is morally permissible, because of the choice of one or both of them to sin, but not be candidates for an annulment. This is because the choice to sin against your marriage does not prove the original consent to marry was not valid. If the consent was valid when the marriage began, it is always valid. The parties are still married, even if they go through the legal steps to divide their assets and see to the welfare of their children: that is, legal separation or civil divorce. They are not free to re-marry or to conduct themselves as unmarried persons. You basically have to live as people do when their spouses are deployed somewhere out of contact. You support them from afar, as circumstances permit, and you don’t start another romance on the side.

If tucdoc’s marriage is valid, then he is and will be no more able to seek the companionship of women than if he were living happily with his wife, for as long as his wife lives, even if she abandons him and re-marries herself outside the Church. Her adultery and abandonment would nott make it OK for him to do the same thing. He can have female friends, of course, but not even the rituals of courtship with someone not a spouse are allowed to people validly married in the Catholic Church, not even people who have gone through a civil divorce. Friendships outside a valid marriage cannot be romantic in nature or give the appearance of being romantic in nature, even after civil divorce, not as long as both of the spouses are alive.

I hope that helps.
Click to expand...
Yes I know that’s CC teaching.
 
Styrgwillidar, thanks for the insight on how the kids would respond to a new relationship. When I mentioned to my 13 y.o. son the possibility of divorce, his first question was “will you remarry?” I lied, saying “I don’t know.” I didn’t feel comfortable saying “yes, eventually” because I don’t know when eventually is. But, from your post, it seems to be when there would be less of a time conflict between my kids (daughter is 11) and a new wife.

Faithfully, two priests and my therapist have all said they could help me with an annulment. I do intend on playing by the Catholic rules; otherwise, I would have moved on by now. Also, if she felt years ago how I feel now, then she really kept it hidden. I’ve been blunt about how unhappy I am, and I don’t remember her ever saying she was unhappy with the marriage until she had first told one of her “friends”. My wife told my therapist on Friday she didn’t want to reconcile, yet she sent a text that she wanted to stop by during my session last night. I sent a text back saying not tonight, per my therapist. She was very upset, and so my therapist left a message on her cell phone saying she was wasn’t sure why she wanted to come to the session. My wife needs to be honest with herself and me. If she wants to start reconciliation, she needs to be upfront about it and not keep playing games. She admitted she doesn’t want to lose her health insurance. If this is her only reason for staying in the marriage, then she is pretty shallow.
 
Sorry, I forgot that the priests had offered to help. You did mention that. They must think you’re in an invalid marriage to offer such a thing (???)

Well, it could be that she’s really shallow. Weird you’re just figuring this out… Or do you think you’re just finally realizing it… I think we’ve all been blinded in relationships before…

Well, I hope you can enjoy your Thanksgiving… Best…
 
Tucdoc,
Good to play be the rules, I’m finding they are good rules. It sounds like you are doing all the right things, which makes everything seem all the more unfair, huh? God, I’m playing by all your rules- why am I having to ge through this in my life?
  • I think your wife is depressed and needs both meds and therapy
  • I think she doesn’t know what she really wants, hence indecision delaying over what really could be minor issues mediated in a divorce/separation agreement
  • If your kids are like mine, they will put you and your wife through some tests/feelers to determine who they can trust, rely on.
  • I wish I could have talked my wife into going to retrovaille (sp?) that has seemed to help a lot of people
  • I think your wife needs to go back to being involved in some group type things locally, like volunteering at school or for a church group or shelter, or even a part time job. Establish a wider variety of friends- with your support. Commit to watching kids/taking them to park etc. while she does her thing.
Just some random thoughts. I hope your thanksgivinng went well. Mine did, my eldest cooked the dinner and we had the ex-in laws and my ex wife over. Ex-in laws are really upset with their daughter but put it aside for the kids. I very much admire my ex-in laws, they’ve really tried to be there for my kids through this without being pushy/nosy.
 
Styrgwillidar, I agree with your insights. Months ago I asked her to attend Retrovaille, but she refused, much like she refuses to take any meds or even to start marriage counseling. I agree she is afraid, but I will just have to confront her and ask what is she more afraid of: dealing with her hurtful past or dealing with an uncertain future that will be her responsibility. I can’t make her do anything, she has to decide on her own what to do. I just can’t go through another baseball season with her laying on the couch, rooting for half a dozen teams, and praying for perfect games and home runs for her favorite players. She is emotionally immature and has to grow up.
 
tucdoc said:
Styrgwillidar, I agree with your insights. Months ago I asked her to attend Retrovaille, but she refused, much like she refuses to take any meds or even to start marriage counseling. I agree she is afraid, but I will just have to confront her and ask what is she more afraid of: dealing with her hurtful past or dealing with an uncertain future that will be her responsibility. I can’t make her do anything, she has to decide on her own what to do. I just can’t go through another baseball season with her laying on the couch, rooting for half a dozen teams, and praying for perfect games and home runs for her favorite players. She is emotionally immature and has to grow up.
Click to expand...
I agree, but she has dug herself into this. And now its time she got herself out. Sure, people can help her, but ultimately she needs to find it on her own. Shes obviously in a different state of mind right now. Everything shes kept inside has lead her to this. Its going to take her a long time to get back on track. Shes lost, and even though she might be put on medications, she will ultimately need to find her way back on track. And she will, eventually… With or without divorce.
 
tucdoc said:
Styrgwillidar, I agree with your insights. Months ago I asked her to attend Retrovaille, but she refused, much like she refuses to take any meds or even to start marriage counseling. I agree she is afraid, but I will just have to confront her and ask what is she more afraid of: dealing with her hurtful past or dealing with an uncertain future that will be her responsibility. I can’t make her do anything, she has to decide on her own what to do. I just can’t go through another baseball season with her laying on the couch, rooting for half a dozen teams, and praying for perfect games and home runs for her favorite players. She is emotionally immature and has to grow up.
Click to expand...
Yes. You can’t make her do anything, but you do not have to act as if whatever she does is acceptable, no matter what she does. You are not bound to support her in that way; in fact, I’m not sure it wouldn’t be enabling rather than support if you did. Giving support to unacceptable behavior is not what fidelity means, even if you were to feel rather sure that her culpability for the behavior is limited.

People who are committing bad acts without culpability still deserve help in avoiding the bad acts. Their victims still deserve to insist that the offending behavior stop. The only thing that changes with the realization of why someone does something is what you choose as the best way to stop the offending behavior while loving the person. After all, didn’t Jesus ask the guard who struck him: “If I have spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?” (John 18:23) He wasn’t looking to get beaten up. His whole intention was to be faithful as the Truth that the Father sent into the world.

You are right to refuse to tolerate behavior that is injurious or offensive to your marriage, whether or not the offending person is culpable. Patience is a good thing, but that isn’t the same as being permissive. You are right to refuse any request for that. Do not listen to guilt-trips to the contrary.
 
styrgwillidar said:
It sounds like you are doing all the right things, which makes everything seem all the more unfair, huh? God, I’m playing by all your rules- why am I having to ge through this in my life?
Click to expand...
One of the kids in a religious education class I taught commented that God would not let bad things happen to us if we are good. I pointed to the Crucifix on the wall and said, “Look at the Cross. Is that true?”

Then I told them this: “The Crucifix does not teach us that bad things cannot happen if we are faithful. The Crucifix teaches that, if we are faithful, God can take the worst thing in the world and turn it into the best thing in the world. The Truth came into the world, and we–because don’t forget, Jesus died for your sins and mine, not just because of the people who were actually there driving the nails in–we nailed the Truth up and ridiculed it and tried to see it dead and buried. The Truth was still true, and it rose again, and God glorified it. We have to stick in there with the Truth, even if we are treated the same way. Then God will bring us through, and we will share in the glory of the Risen Jesus, and we’ll share in it forever. That is the main thing, to be faithful to the Truth.”

I did tell them that Jesus taught us by how he prayed in the Garden that we don’t have to go looking for this, we don’t have to want it, and we don’t have to hope for it. Jesus asked that the cup of suffering pass Him by. That is OK to do. We only have to accept whatever must come because we must stick with God’s Truth. God doesn’t want us to suffer. God only wants us to be willing to suffer, when only the way of suffering allows us to follow Him.
 
BlueShadow123 said:
Putting on an act of happiness is fake. And the will know that.
Click to expand...
Again, I never inferred they should put on an act of any kind. Some people can do as I suggested and there certainly would be grace for couples who continue to live in charity even when “love” has gone. That does not require any acting if charity is genuine.
 
We have an appt. with a divorce mediator later this week. My daughter commented to my wife that she knows “my parents are probably going to divorce”. Despite my efforts, my marriage is ending. It’s not what I want, but my wife doesn’t want to be married to me anymore. I will have to move out of the house and move on with my life.
 
I truly hope you find the peace you deserve. I honestly believe that as tough as it it, it’s important to trust in God and let your life go where God wants it to…it’s very very hard but the results are, I believe, worth it. Maybe it’s time to step back, and just see where things go and I’m sure God will guide you. You did, and are doing your best in a really lousy situation. You’ve kept your faith and set a great example to your kids. It will pay off down the road.

I really hope everything works out for you and your family and I’ll be praying for all of you.
 
Tucdoc,
You’ve been saying the right things about getting an annullment down the road. All things that can happen in time. Right now, you really need to focus on your kids and figure out how to be in their lives every day. It will require some sacrifice in the short term- and insistence in mediation. Keep seeing a therapist for at least advice about helping your kids through this.

Mediation can be better, as I said before, if you stay calm and matter of fact it’s less adversarial. I think more likely to keep the option of reconciliation available.

Whatever you do now will be the basis for your relationship with your kids in the future. My ex-wife has really gooned it with her kids, as I mentioned before. Even with my allowing her to come over every morning, visit with them at my house, calling them every night- because of the other choices she’s made they don’t trust her or have faith in her ability to love. My son told me last night he feels bad because she’s ‘just a figure’ to him now. He doesn’t feel like he has a place with her. That where she lives now isn’t his home- it’s hers and her roommates- not a place he belongs or is wanted, its a place he’s allowed to visit.

Whereever you live, make it your kids home too. Have them help move in, set up their own room/spaces. Let them choose things they want to keep there. It needs to be someplace they live, not someplace they visit. My ex’s biggest screw-up was telling the kids it was their home- my daughter even talked about having two homes now- and then acting the opposite. I would advise getting a place where you can handle full time custody if your ex-wife startst having trouble living up to her obligations towards the kids, ends up asking you to take them more and more, you may end up getting full custody by default.

Do not ever let your kids think they are an inconvenience.

Don’t give up hope, keep praying. Use the initial separation for introspection, ask yourself the hard questions-- if after separation, she determines that there is a physical ailment behind this- depression- gets treatment and wants to reconcile- Will you be willing? Can you forgive? I know me, as I said before it would be a while until I could even think about another relationship regardless of the Church’s guidance. You need to know you, don’t rush to file an annullment, clear your head, get your priorities set God, family,
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top