Wife has given up

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Why would you be flamed for this? You’re absolutely right. Women need to feel comfortable in the nests they’ve created and while they love for their men to do beta-type tasks like the laundry and the dishes from time to time, they don’t want their men to turn into the typical Western panzy. Women yearn for independence… the independence to CHOOSE to serve their husbands! But at the same time, they need a reason to make that choice and the reason is that their husbands are strong, firm, successful in one way or another and fiercely love them. Sure, turn on that softer side once in awhile but make it only once in awhile!

It’s not easy to be sure because that means all the responsibility is on us as men. It means we have to lead and if we screw up it’s on us. That’s a frightening position but it’s one we are called to be in as husbands and fathers. My first officer, my wife, gives good advice and runs day to day operations smoothly, but that nevertheless means I’m ultimately the one that makes the big decisions and has the final say. If you give that away women first become uncomfortable, then scared, then they find you repulsive because you can’t live up to the call of manhood. Sure that gets cloaked in various ways, but that’s the bottom line my friend.
If you give that away women first become uncomfortable, then scared, then they find you repulsive because you can’t live up to the call of manhood”?

Have you been following this thread at all? Not to get into the truth of what you’re saying in the general sense, but I have no idea what this or the post you replied to has to do with Tucdoc’s situation. I mean the comments are essentially non sequiturs, considering the context.
 
I’ve been reading the book “Crazy Time”, about the various stages of divorce. The author describes how the roles the couple assume at the beginning of the marriage can ultimately lead to its demise, particularly the dominant-submissive roles. She describes this as a teeter-totter stuck in one position, a marriage out of balance. Often the submissive person (traditionally, but not exclusively, the wife) becomes resentful of her role in the marriage, which can lead to an undermining of the marriage (usually with an affair), with divorce as the end result. I found this very intriguing and very applicable to my marriage. The solution would have been switching roles periodically, having a true partnership and more equality in the marriage. With this insight, I hope to become a better life partner, either to someone else (eventually, not for a while), or, if she really wants to reconcile, to my soon-to-be ex-wife.
 
I’ve been reading the book “Crazy Time”, about the various stages of divorce. The author describes how the roles the couple assume at the beginning of the marriage can ultimately lead to its demise, particularly the dominant-submissive roles. She describes this as a teeter-totter stuck in one position, a marriage out of balance. Often the submissive person (traditionally, but not exclusively, the wife) becomes resentful of her role in the marriage, which can lead to an undermining of the marriage (usually with an affair), with divorce as the end result. I found this very intriguing and very applicable to my marriage. The solution would have been switching roles periodically, having a true partnership and more equality in the marriage. With this insight, I hope to become a better life partner, either to someone else (eventually, not for a while), or, if she really wants to reconcile, to my soon-to-be ex-wife.
Great insight. I got the book How not to Fall in Love with a Jerk for my daughter for Christmas. It’s so good, I’m reading it. It talks about looking into yourself and how your personal faults and needs can trap you into unproductive relationships.

You being a doctor have to make precise “command” decisions in your work. The lines get fuzzy as you start adopting that role in your marriage. It doesn’t make for a healthy marriage.

Also, don’t overlook that it will make you a better parent too.
 
kbacher, he has been trying for a very long time to get his wife in counseling. My impression is that he has been begging her and for a very long time. Not only that but she has been consulting a lawyer about divorce. I am all for doing everything you can to preserve a marriage but it just doesn’t sound like he has a willing partner.
ducdoc, the kids are too young to understand.
I guess maybe a lot of these discussions need to be out of their earshot?
I am so sorry you have had to undergo so much pain. Your kids are going to need you but you know that. Try to stay strong for them . Find a priest or good guy friend you can talk to just to share your feelings. What your wife has been doing in relation to her “FRIENDS” OR “FRIEND” is totally unacceptable.
Redroselover - It took me over 10 years to get my wife to agree to counseling. We have been going for about 7 months. She still dislikes it, but she agrees that it has helped us significantly. (Please don’t take from this statement that I am saying my wife is at fault - I am as much or more a part of the issues in our marriage.)

When I made my comment above, it was with full knowledge that his wife has not been willing. But the ACTION of doing this will still teach, will still make an impression. The ACTION of not agreeing to a divorce and fighting for a marriage will still make an impression.

The point is - admit his own faults, explain that he wishes to learn from them but will not dwell on them. Ask her to do the same.

Find the things that brought them together in the first place. Do something meaningful to show that you still remember that and care.

If she wants a divorce, let her support herself a little…get a job, move out etc. But explain that you are a team, and that you saw part of your role as providing for the family, and her role as – whatever her role was. If she leaves the family, then you will not provide.

Impress upon her that you still want her and to make this work. Don’t beg. Don’t put yourself through an emotional ringer. Just be clear, and just don’t acquiesce. Stay consistent.
 
Kbachler, most of last year was an emotional ringer. A few weeks ago I called a suicide hotline in the middle of the night. I couldn’t sleep because I just didn’t think I could keep living like this, but was afraid my wife would continue to haunt me, asking for more money, and not let me go on with my life if we divorced. The volunteer asked if I had children and advised me to think about them and their well-being.

I know I’m more fortunate than most since I still have my profession, secured by a long-term employment contract. Nonetheless, I now realize how important my marriage is. Unfortunately, my wife feels the recognition is coming too late. Repeatedly I have asked her to reconsider, but she refuses. I no longer plead. I’ve spent hours trying to persuade her, but she would just start crying or get angry. Now I just make the offer/suggestion. But, I also ask her not to stay out of pity for me. I can make it through an unwanted divorce, as many other have. I remind her that she is the one who wants the divorce.
 
tucdoc.
When someone feels betrayed by a spouse it does a stunning amount of internal damage to their confidence in their own judgment. When you are depressed a lot of thinking gets distorted. I really feel like you are going to need someone to talk to in order to process all this. I would find a good counselor plus a good friend or relative to talk to plus a good priest. Healing can come over time but you have been dealt a huge blow. It is understandable that you would be depressed. it seems to me, it is important that you have someone to talk to in order to sort it all out and to release some of the hurt. It will help you deal with your beloved kids in the future and we all sense how important they are to you. . You are going to need some healing regardless of whether you try a reconciliation with your wife or try to enter into some future relationship should you get an annulment. Don’t give into despair. I have seen many a person who was severely depressed over marriage issues and kids issues and such pull through and heal . Please don’t give into despair. Right now it probably feels like the hurt will go on forever and emotional pain is so devastating that you just don’t feel like you can take it much longer, but please persevere . Please choose to live in hope even though you can’t see right now how all this can be healed. With some guidance and help and time and effort and prayers it can heal. We are all praying for you. I think of you often in my prayers.
 
Kbachler, most of last year was an emotional ringer. A few weeks ago I called a suicide hotline in the middle of the night. I couldn’t sleep because I just didn’t think I could keep living like this, but was afraid my wife would continue to haunt me, asking for more money, and not let me go on with my life if we divorced. The volunteer asked if I had children and advised me to think about them and their well-being.

I know I’m more fortunate than most since I still have my profession, secured by a long-term employment contract. Nonetheless, I now realize how important my marriage is. Unfortunately, my wife feels the recognition is coming too late. Repeatedly I have asked her to reconsider, but she refuses. I no longer plead. I’ve spent hours trying to persuade her, but she would just start crying or get angry. Now I just make the offer/suggestion. But, I also ask her not to stay out of pity for me. I can make it through an unwanted divorce, as many other have. I remind her that she is the one who wants the divorce.
As redroselover said- find someone you can talk about everything to. Probably not wanting to talk to relatives/friends about personal stuff you’re hoping to keep between you and your wife, but you need someone to listen.

Tucdoc- you won’t continue to go on living like this. Things do change, this stage isn’t forever although it seems like it now. You can change things as well. You do have control, you are choosing to keep the options open, you are choosing to work with your wife right now. That does mean you’re depending on her responses- but that’s something you’re in control of, whether you continue to wait or not. But if it ever comes to the point that you would contemplate hurting yourself, than yes, seperation or divorce is a far better option. You can always remarry or reconcile. If you reach you’re breaking point it’s time to regroup. For your kids, they will always wonder why they weren’t enough to keep their Dad from doing something like that… (although it sounds like you just really needed someone to talk to).

Keep praying, God will give you amazing strength and stamina. I sleep on average 5 hrs per night for the last 18 months, with many sleepless nights. Mind racing, going over conversations we’ve had, or ones I would like to have. Normal. I haven’t gotten sick at all in that time.

Wife haunting you? Depends on you. How firmly you establish boundaries. That is something you control. If she chooses to not be your wife, she relinquishes any and all claim on your time. Dude, she has nothing to do with how you ‘go on with’ your life after a divorce. Nothing. She can make any demands she wants- to your voicemail or lawyer if you don’t want to talk to her, if that’s the boundary you need for your mental health. And your response can be No, no, no, no,. An ex has no right to make any demands on how you conduct yourself. I know you love her, you probably always will but when she makes this choice it has consequences. Her problem, not yours.

Fatigue. Tired people make mistakes. They also experience the ‘good enough’ syndrome. People who are typically meticulous and exact in their work become sloppy, settle for less than their usual standard. Don’t check records they normally would, don’t read things prior to signing them etc. You need to watch out for that, it affects judgment as well- quick decisions vice thinking things through. It also feeds despair, makes it harder to cope.

Workout/exercise. I’ve found this to be a wonderful coping mechanism. Tracking progress, burning nervous energy, helping my sleep to at least be solid if not long. It’s also built up my energy levels. A real head clearer.

Your comment- you know you’re fortunate to have a job. Yes. And kids that love you. And your health, and the ability to see, and a God who loves you, and a forum with people concerned for you, and a reliable car, the ability to take a deep appreciative breath without coughing… When you get down, write out every little thing you can appreciate. Focus on the positive when the negatives try to drag you down.

Find the stuff you can be proud of, being there for your kids. Don’t expect the pain to go away, it won’t. If my experience is anything, not for a long while. But I would rather feel pain than nothing- that’s true depression, and if you can’t feel pain you can’t feel anything else.
 
OH, only from what I’ve witnessed. Divorce is just incredibly painful. It’s not where you set out to end up.

You pain is normal. I doubt that helps. But more than anything, you need to know that you’re not alone in the kind of pain that you experience. If you can find a group of divorcees that are moving forward in a POSITIVE fashion that might be helpful. Not in ex spouse bashing group clinging to the anger and hurt… Keep in mind that it’s your wifes inability to let go of past hurts that continues to hurt. YOU DON’T WANT TO DO THE SAME THING…

Good for you making that call. I wouldn’t have thought to call just to talk to someone. Maintain that resource. Now is the time to surround yourself with friends. ESPECIALLY if you move out. You don’t need to experience a sense of lonely right up front. Allow your friends to carry you a bit, to soften the landing of that reality.

DO NOT allow anyone to bash your ex. Not to you, and not to your children. You can rant, they can listen… If there is ever a chance for reconciliation… it will be only if she knows you cared enough to continue to protect her.

I wonder if she would consider counceling after the divorce??? So that you both can work towards maintaining healthy as possible environments for the kids? A CONTINGENCY within the divorce agreement???

Finally, I’ve been thinking about how the kids are asking you why you don’t want mom to have friends.

This is sticky. I don’t think you should divulge everything to your children. However, it’s not fair that you look like the bad guy here. Aren’t they 11 and 15? And how is it they know about the “friends”… Part of me would just say… Mommy can friends. But mommy shouldn’t have male friends that don’t include me in the relationship. Or boyfriends. I don’t know… get some counceling from people who KNOW what that can do. I wouldn’t want it to come out vengeful… But in the way you shouldn’t bash her… She shouldn’t allow you to be a villian over something you’re not. Things are bad enough.

Also, again, because I don’t have a CLUE as to what the children actually know, and HOW they are hearing it. Neither of you should use the children as a therapist, an outlet, or anything like that. They can come to you… but you CAN’T go to them. It’s utterly destructive. That’ I’ve witnessed WAY too many times.

Tucdoc… Your family, I’m still thinking of you all and you all are in my prayers. I’m sorry that has come to fruition… Just know, that you CAN get through this. And you MUST! Just as you would advise an ill dying patient. Get your support group together. And keep taking your medicine (pray, and work on your soul)… you may get worse before you get better… But it is possible. And YOU KNOW, it’s the patients that claim they will get through it from the beginning… that do! Empower yourself with that!!!

Many, many hugs!
 
Thank you all for your positive comments. I am still seeing my therapist, and I often see our priest working out at the YMCA when I do get a chance to go workout (so, good for the body and soul). I just got off the phone with a good family friend who we helped when she went through a divorce over 30 years ago (I was my daughter’s age at that time and remember her living with us for several months). She has been very helpful and encouraging. My immediate family members (both parents and my sister) will call periodically and are always available for me to talk to. Even at work, everybody has been supportive. The office manage helped me through a panic episode, so that I could see patients that afternoon. Two of my partners have been divorced, and they both feel I can get through this.

I do have much to be thankful for, including an attorney with experience representing women like my wife, so she know what she is up against. Her advise was to focus on the tasks she has given me. It is overwhelming, but taking one step at a time is the only way to get through this. She is an expensive therapist, but peace of mind is worth the cost. Her take on my wife is that she is unhappy and that after the divorce she will still be unhappy.

Reconciliation seems very unlikely now. Every time I ask, she just says she has made up her mind. She already told me she doesn’t love me, and she has shown me she doesn’t care about me. She will say that I am to blame for all of this. She has no intention of changing, and is already making plans for the upcoming baseball season. I’ve been told I’m better off without her, and I’m starting to think that way myself.

I still dread moving out because I won’t see the kids everyday. We are working on a parenting schedule. I want to be more than a weekend/vacation dad, but my work schedule is making this very difficult. I put up with living with my wife just so that I can be with the kids daily.
 
<<< But, I also ask her not to stay out of pity for me. I can make it through an unwanted divorce, as many other have. I remind her that she is the one who wants the divorce.
1st Thessalonians 5:16-18 16-Rejoice always; 17-pray without ceasing; 18-in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:4-7 **4-Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! 5-Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. 6-Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7-And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. **

If she sees the joy of the Lord in you, I mean REALLY sees it. Not with an attitude like you don’t care if she leaves, but an attitude that despite the pain, the God of all comfort is still God indeed? For your part that’s what will draw her to you. HIM.
 
Tucdoc, this may have been asked before, but is there a mutual, trusted friend that could help her through this troubling time? Has she maintained such friendships?

My prayers are with you.
 
Kbachler, most of last year was an emotional ringer. A few weeks ago I called a suicide hotline in the middle of the night. I couldn’t sleep because I just didn’t think I could keep living like this, but was afraid my wife would continue to haunt me, asking for more money, and not let me go on with my life if we divorced. The volunteer asked if I had children and advised me to think about them and their well-being.

I know I’m more fortunate than most since I still have my profession, secured by a long-term employment contract. Nonetheless, I now realize how important my marriage is. Unfortunately, my wife feels the recognition is coming too late. Repeatedly I have asked her to reconsider, but she refuses. I no longer plead. I’ve spent hours trying to persuade her, but she would just start crying or get angry. Now I just make the offer/suggestion. But, I also ask her not to stay out of pity for me. I can make it through an unwanted divorce, as many other have. I remind her that she is the one who wants the divorce.
My point is, just go about daily life. Work on improving youself daily. Tell her that you’d like her to still be part of the team,daily. Ask her for her involvement daily.

But stay on your good path.

I too went through things comparable to what you are saying above, prolly with comparable income (until the recent bad economy.) Wife in my case is team player, but in certain aspects we were NOT on the same page and divorce was a real possibility.

I laid down certain rules and believe you should do similarly - you don’t want the divorce. If she stays, she goes to counseling, if she moves out you don’t support her.

No reason to give in on the divorce if you don’t want it, and if you are simply steadfast, at some point this will be a good exampe for the kids. At some point wife will realize that she is looking (and being) unreasonable.

In my case, wife DID NOT want divorce. I insisted on counseling or I would file. Find your leverage and make counseling - and talking - stick.
 
Reconciliation seems very unlikely now. Every time I ask, she just says she has made up her mind. She already told me she doesn’t love me, and she has shown me she doesn’t care about me. She will say that I am to blame for all of this. She has no intention of changing, and is already making plans for the upcoming baseball season. I’ve been told I’m better off without her, and I’m starting to think that way myself.
My first thought is…

I would tell her that you cannot accept her going to baseball games alone with male friends. If she offers a compromise of being accompanied by a mutually trusted friend, consider it, as well as any other reasonable compromise. If she goes anyway, change the locks and close the accounts while she is at the “game”.

I do have a question though - has she done anything to see these male friends in the off-season?
 
My first thought is…

I would tell her that you cannot accept her going to baseball games alone with male friends. If she offers a compromise of being accompanied by a mutually trusted friend, consider it, as well as any other reasonable compromise. If she goes anyway, change the locks and close the accounts while she is at the “game”.

I do have a question though - has she done anything to see these male friends in the off-season?
I would have to agree that any support given to her should be for immediate needs, especially for your children. Their mental health and well-being, as you know, are primary. This might sound cold, but spa days, baseball games, and other such nice-to-haves will be hard to justify when having to support 2 households on one income. If those activities are that meaningful to her, would she consider a part-time job?
 
I laid down certain rules and believe you should do similarly - you don’t want the divorce. If she stays, she goes to counseling, if she moves out you don’t support her.
His WIFE wants the divorce. And right now, she can’t see clearly to counceling. You can certainly decide not to pay above and beyond what you’re court ordered. But women that stay home and care for the kids, have EARNED a salary. We aren’t living in the Victorian days where you can take the kids, the house, and all the money and toss your wife out on the street. (what love!)

Tuc, I believe your therapist is right. Your wife is unhappy. She THINKS she knows the 'cause (you) and she’s removing the cause. She will likely see that the cause is not you afterall.

The hope for reconcilliation is that you tell her, that if she ever wants to try again, to please let you know. That you’re open to that. Should the time come you’re no longer open then let her know. I suspect that it’s the ONLY way now. The chances are more slim to none. But I do KNOW people that have remarried each other after a divorce. If you ever want her back, don’t let your ego get in the way…

Hugs again… Panic attacks… Dang, I know what those are like… Bless you!
 
1st Thessalonians 5:16-18 16-Rejoice always; 17-pray without ceasing; 18-in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:4-7 **4-Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! 5-Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. 6-Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7-And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. **

If she sees the joy of the Lord in you, I mean REALLY sees it. Not with an attitude like you don’t care if she leaves, but an attitude that despite the pain, the God of all comfort is still God indeed? For your part that’s what will draw her to you. HIM.
:amen: :blessyou:

Isaiah 55:8-11
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD.
9
As high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my ways above your ways and my thoughts above your thoughts.
10
For just as from the heavens the rain and snow come down And do not return there till they have watered the earth, making it fertile and fruitful, Giving seed to him who sows and bread to him who eats,
11
So shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; It shall not return to me void, but shall do my will, achieving the end for which I sent it.

:grouphug::console:

Weird as it may sound, I’ve been praying for you at daily mass. You are being held up by many prayers.:gopray::harp:
 
Qui es ce, thank for the daily prayer.

Tiribulus, I want to reflect God in our marriage to my wife. I no longer plead or beg for her to come back. Even this AM, I told her I don’t want this divorce, that we could make the marriage work, but only if she wanted to. I acknowledged that she is angry and hurt, but I explained that I never intended to hurt her with what I said or did. She claims that I don’t care for her, but I replied that just because I don’t give her everything she want when she wants doesn’t mean I don’t care. She usually get everything she wants eventually, not immediately, so she needs to understand this will continue in the marriage.

I am more at peace with the possibility of divorce. Many have told me that I’ll be O.K., so the apprehension is less. Yes, God’s ways are not my ways. Maybe this is what He intends. Maybe losing half my possession (house, retirement, bank accounts) is a way of entering the Kingdom of Heaven. My wife will certainly feel the pain of living on a fixed budget.

90 Domer, my wife does have a good friend, but she won’t listen to her because the friend is against the divorce.
 
His WIFE wants the divorce. And right now, she can’t see clearly to counceling. You can certainly decide not to pay above and beyond what you’re court ordered. But women that stay home and care for the kids, have EARNED a salary. We aren’t living in the Victorian days where you can take the kids, the house, and all the money and toss your wife out on the street. (what love!)
You aren’t listening. I KNOW his wife wants the divorce. But RIGHT NOW there is nothing court ordered. MAKE HER do it. Make her get a job, make her file, make her do the work, and offer as an alternative - “Or we stay together, and work together, as a team, to make this work.”

Why is HE moving out? Make her move out. If she doesn’t want to, make her go to counseling or cut off her financial support. Let her stay in the house, give her no money.

I KNOW she does’t see clearly to counseling. The POINT here is to provide clear choices to do that.
 
Can I interject a few things?

First, Tucdoc, you are in a horrible situation. However, to the best that you can, treat your wife with dignity and respect, as she is still the mom of your children. I think you’re already doing that.

Second, since she is shutting down all avenues for reconcilliation, perhaps it is best to demonstrate that you’ll be moving on with your life. In other words, don’t beg for a change of heart. Perhaps you can tell her that you’ll be praying that she’ll find some serenity in her life.

Third, make sure your kids know your point of view and that you gave it your all to keep your marriage together. But don’t make their mother the enemy.

Finally, in my toughest times (esp. when my son was diagnosed with autism), I tried to keep positive by remembering that his life achievements on earth are not what’s important. His earthly suffering will be rewarded in Heaven. I hope you can find the same fortitude to feel this in your own way.

God bless.
 
You aren’t listening. I KNOW his wife wants the divorce. But RIGHT NOW there is nothing court ordered. MAKE HER do it. Make her get a job, make her file, make her do the work, and offer as an alternative - “Or we stay together, and work together, as a team, to make this work.”

Why is HE moving out? Make her move out. If she doesn’t want to, make her go to counseling or cut off her financial support. Let her stay in the house, give her no money.

I KNOW she does’t see clearly to counseling. The POINT here is to provide clear choices to do that.
Yeah… treat her like a child… Make demands… That will bring her around. I’m sure she’ll run right into his arms.

She has filed. They are working this out like adults… by going through a mediator. Have YOU read anything?

It is incredibly foolish to assume she won’t step in to take care of herself. I don’t gather that she is an embecile. She has just never before run the show with regard to earning the income. She may have overspent. But the woman is college educated. She’s making huge decisions. Whether or not in her best interest… Once this divorce is penned, and signed… She will realize that she needs a job. Or she will adjust.

Threats are no way to prove to a woman that claims you don’t love her that you actually do

ETA: How do you MAKE HER? Especially in today’s market? She’s probably going to have a hard time finding a job. Now, maybe Tuc, you can suggest she realize that if she wants to keep her lifestyle, and you only plan on paying XYZ, she should try getting a job now… see if that changes her tune. I doubt it, but it might be worth a try…
 
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