Wife has given up

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Big_Dummy said:
It is my experience that religious counselors are unable to be unbias and objective. Also, I have seen some really bad advice from religious counselors like telling an abused wife to “submit” to her husband. They have turned a blind eye to abuse in the past and will likely continue to do so. If this is a case where he is abusing her – we do not know, then the last counselor on earth she will want to go to is religious. She may very well agree to go to a counselor who is not religious, but will refuse to go to a religous one or go to a priest because of the cover up of abuses in the past. He needs to find a source that both will agree on going to.
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You are very ignorant of what the Catholic Church teaches about wife submission. Please read Pope Jean Paul II’s “Letter to Women” for education on the Catholic Church.

Please open up a new thread if you wish to discuss this topic.
 
tucdoc said:
The main thing my wife says I did wrong is “you forgot to love your wife”. I’m not sure what she means. I guess being faithful and a good provider are not signs of love, at least for her. She may have wanted more physical affection, rather than just sex, or words of tenderness. Admittedly, I could have given her more of this, had I known this was her definition of love. When I did offer to do these things, she said it was too late. They would not be genuine, but rather forced and insincere. She didn’t understand how we learn what our partners like through trial and error, and although they may not initially be “natural”, they can eventually be “second nature” and ultimately spontaneous. I was not aware of how emotionally immature she really is until she said she didn’t love me anymore. Real love is not conditional on the other person always doing what we want.
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This is EXACTLY what she means. You are so haughty and self-righteous towards her. She is tired of feeling unloved and through years of neglect her love for you has waned. And you STILL won’t take responsibility for not showing her love. You were unsympathetic towards her. You felt you were doing enough by providing a home, comfortable lifestyle, and two children and didn’t need to do anymore (like choosing to not get her gifts). You tried to tell her what to do, rather than being partners in the relationship. And you are confused as to why she doesn’t believe you love her. Even after you realized there was a problem you couldn’t help feeling like you were so much better than her. You were trying, she wasn’t. Forget the fact she tried for, what was it, 13 years before giving up and you tried for 1 whole year. Even while getting only your side I’m more sympathetic to her than you. Real love is a two-way street, one person can’t hold it up by themselves, which is what she felt like she was doing.
 
angelerulastiel said:
This is EXACTLY what she means. You are so haughty and self-righteous towards her. She is tired of feeling unloved and through years of neglect her love for you has waned. And you STILL won’t take responsibility for not showing her love. You were unsympathetic towards her. You felt you were doing enough by providing a home, comfortable lifestyle, and two children and didn’t need to do anymore (like choosing to not get her gifts). You tried to tell her what to do, rather than being partners in the relationship. And you are confused as to why she doesn’t believe you love her. Even after you realized there was a problem you couldn’t help feeling like you were so much better than her. You were trying, she wasn’t. Forget the fact she tried for, what was it, 13 years before giving up and you tried for 1 whole year. Even while getting only your side I’m more sympathetic to her than you. Real love is a two-way street, one person can’t hold it up by themselves, which is what she felt like she was doing.
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Way too harsh. You come across as a woman who has been hurt in the same way and you are bitter. You seem to be projecting your own bitterness onto this guy.

Let’s kick him while he’s down…how Christian of us to throw it all in his face after he opened up to us and shared his vulnerabilities with us. 🤷

What is he supposed to do??? really??? He’s tried everything and he knows his mistake; he can’t change the past anymore than you or I can. He trying so hard and you just kick him down.

Lovely
 
He is kicking his wife without giving her the chance to defend herself. He is publicly insulting her saying she won’t try. He is blaming her and claims to not understand why she won’t take responsibility, because he’s taking responsibility. If he wants this to work he needs to actually try. Not just say he’s trying and continue to blame her. He hasn’t tried everything. He hasn’t tried actually loving her as his equal partner. He’s only taken a paternal attitudes towards her that he knows better. If she would just do what he said everything would be fine. He refuses to see this. He wants to know why she won’t forgive him and come back, I’m telling him.
And no, I haven’t been hurt in this way; I’m not projecting bitterness.
 
angelerulastiel said:
He is kicking his wife without giving her the chance to defend herself. He is publicly insulting her saying she won’t try. He is blaming her and claims to not understand why she won’t take responsibility, because he’s taking responsibility. If he wants this to work he needs to actually try. Not just say he’s trying and continue to blame her. He hasn’t tried everything. He hasn’t tried actually loving her as his equal partner. He’s only taken a paternal attitudes towards her that he knows better. If she would just do what he said everything would be fine. He refuses to see this. He wants to know why she won’t forgive him and come back, I’m telling him.
And no, I haven’t been hurt in this way; I’m not projecting bitterness.
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I see a lot of what you are talking about. There is a lot of self-justification. There has been enough fault on both sides to go around, but indeed, we only hear one side, because tucdoc is going to present it as if he were the more wronged party. It’s natural to do that, we all want others to support us, even if we’re 100% wrong in our choices.

I have no idea what tucdoc has or hasn’t done, none of us really do. Neither do we know for sure what his wife’s side is. I won’t get involved in the thread, because I do stand closer to where this wife is, apart from going around with other men. My own husband thinks if I would just do as he thinks I should, all would be well, meanwhile, he does nothing to improve the marriage, only stands quite above the situation and criticizes me. I do not feel as if we are partners in life, but that he believes himself to be better than me in all ways. It is a very unequal relationship.

Anyway, I am sorry for both of them, but mostly for the children. My husband is the product of a divorce and it has scarred him for life.
 
angelerulastiel said:
He is kicking his wife without giving her the chance to defend herself. He is publicly insulting her saying she won’t try. He is blaming her and claims to not understand why she won’t take responsibility, because he’s taking responsibility. If he wants this to work he needs to actually try. Not just say he’s trying and continue to blame her. He hasn’t tried everything. He hasn’t tried actually loving her as his equal partner. He’s only taken a paternal attitudes towards her that he knows better. If she would just do what he said everything would be fine. He refuses to see this. He wants to know why she won’t forgive him and come back, I’m telling him.
And no, I haven’t been hurt in this way; I’m not projecting bitterness.
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I understand the feelings you’re describing above, but disagree with the interpretation and actions that follow from them. Regardless of how unloved one feels in a marriage, some actions are unjustified and unjustifiable. Having affairs, or doing things that could reasonably be interpreted as affairs, are simply wrong–always. A spouse who objects to this isn’t being paternalistic–only expressing hurt and frustration over the failure of his spouse to live up to her vows.

I think that the media often promote the view that, at least for a woman, all kinds of emotional abuse is justified if she feels “unloved”, and that her happiness is entirely the husband’s responsibility. That’s simply wrong. And unattainable. In a real equal partnership, individuals recognize ownership and responsibility for their own feelings, while building the partnership. I think marriage would be strengthened and divorce rates reduced by developing healthier expectations.
 
nonanon said:
I understand the feelings you’re describing above, but disagree with the interpretation and actions that follow from them. Regardless of how unloved one feels in a marriage, some actions are unjustified and unjustifiable. Having affairs, or doing things that could reasonably be interpreted as affairs, are simply wrong–always. A spouse who objects to this isn’t being paternalistic–only expressing hurt and frustration over the failure of his spouse to live up to her vows.

I think that the media often promote the view that, at least for a woman, all kinds of emotional abuse is justified if she feels “unloved”, and that her happiness is entirely the husband’s responsibility. That’s simply wrong. And unattainable. In a real equal partnership, individuals recognize ownership and responsibility for their own feelings, while building the partnership. I think marriage would be strengthened and divorce rates reduced by developing healthier expectations.
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Excellent post! 👍
 
First off, I am not going to accuse this woman of having an affair just because she tells a guy friend that she is unhappy with her marriage and she goes to baseball games with guys. Maybe she just relates better to guys. I have almost no female friends, I get along better with guys. Doesn’t mean I’m cheating.

Second, no her happiness is not totally her husbands responsibility, but it is his responsibility to make her feel loved and cared for. She can’t make herself feel loved if her husband isn’t showing her any. And are you really going to insist that a woman stay in a marriage where she has felt unloved for *13 *years?
 
Tucdoc,

Saw this thread in “sidebar” of the main forum. It’s been awhile since I have followed it, but I did for some time.
Hope you are doing as well as possible. I remember how painful it has all been and how you tried.

Prayers for you all.

(try not to get caught up into the “advice” or whatever of people who are just recently reading your story. No need to rehash the pain and open wounds that hopefully are slowly healing)

God Bless.
 
angelerulastiel said:
First off, I am not going to accuse this woman of having an affair just because she tells a guy friend that she is unhappy with her marriage and she goes to baseball games with guys. Maybe she just relates better to guys. I have almost no female friends, I get along better with guys. Doesn’t mean I’m cheating.

Second, no her happiness is not totally her husbands responsibility, but it is his responsibility to make her feel loved and cared for. She can’t make herself feel loved if her husband isn’t showing her any. And are you really going to insist that a woman stay in a marriage where she has felt unloved for *13 *years?
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I don’t recall any part of the marriage vows that says “…until I feel unloved…” If one doesn’t mean the vow, one shouldn’t take it.

Regarding the other behavior, let’s test your view by putting the shoe on the other foot. If a husband feels “unloved” by his wife, is it OK for him to spend time with another woman, have private dinners with her, and fly for an overnight trip to New York to see a Broadway play?
 
TucDoc is ending the marriage because he feels unloved and not respected. Same for her. So you can’t criticize her without criticizing him on that point. Remember, she has basically refused to make the actual decision to get divorced, so TucDoc is making it.

And if the lady is someone that he shares interests with so he goes out to dinner with her once in a while I don’t have a problem with that. If he wants to see this Broadway play and his wife is refusing to go with him and this lady also want to attend, I see nothing wrong with them going to see the same play and taking a flight together so they aren’t by themselves. But hopefully the spouse would care enough in either case to want to be involved, rather than just forbid activities. If a TucDoc had been the one to want to fly to New York for a baseball game, do you think he would have listened if his wife had forbid it? I doubt it since he doesn’t respect her opinions.
 
My wife asked for a legal separation, for me to stay in the house “to raise our children”. I refused because I deserve better than that, as do the children, and she as well. If she doesn’t want to be married to me, then we need to go on with our lives. In my Divorce Recovery group there are people who tried to live parallel lives in the same house. They ultimately divorce and move out. A priest friend told me it takes two to have a marriage, one can’t do it by themselves.

We have a right and responsibility to tell people are needs. If I wasn’t loving my wife the way she wanted, it was her responsibility to inform me. She admits to not being a good communicator, to stuffing feeling rather than expressing them. None of us is a mind reader. Yes, I could have been more approachable, and just asked if she was OK. I recall deciding not to engage so much with her when I tried to cheer her up after her mom died now 7 years ago. I remember saying to myself after many attempts at trying to interact with her “it’s hard to make things better, it’s easy to make them worse”. So, I did back-off on prompting her to communicate with me.
 
nonanon said:
I understand the feelings you’re describing above, but disagree with the interpretation and actions that follow from them. Regardless of how unloved one feels in a marriage, some actions are unjustified and unjustifiable. Having affairs, or doing things that could reasonably be interpreted as affairs, are simply wrong–always. A spouse who objects to this isn’t being paternalistic–only expressing hurt and frustration over the failure of his spouse to live up to her vows.

I think that the media often promote the view that, at least for a woman, all kinds of emotional abuse is justified if she feels “unloved”, and that her happiness is entirely the husband’s responsibility. That’s simply wrong. And unattainable. In a real equal partnership, individuals recognize ownership and responsibility for their own feelings, while building the partnership. I think marriage would be strengthened and divorce rates reduced by developing healthier expectations.
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Amen to this! 👍
 
angelerulastiel said:
First off, I am not going to accuse this woman of having an affair just because she tells a guy friend that she is unhappy with her marriage and she goes to baseball games with guys. Maybe she just relates better to guys. I have almost no female friends, I get along better with guys. Doesn’t mean I’m cheating.

Second, no her happiness is not totally her husbands responsibility, but it is his responsibility to make her feel loved and cared for. She can’t make herself feel loved if her husband isn’t showing her any. And are you really going to insist that a woman stay in a marriage where she has felt unloved for *13 *years?
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When you are married, you should NOT be going away on weekend trips with men without your husband’s blessing PERIOD.

The same goes for a man going on a weekend trip with a bunch of women. If my husband did that to me, I would probably separate and insist on his behaviour to change.

Are you married/divorced? Do you take marriage seriously? Is marriage important to you?
 
angelerulastiel said:
TucDoc is ending the marriage because he feels unloved and not respected. Same for her. So you can’t criticize her without criticizing him on that point. Remember, she has basically refused to make the actual decision to get divorced, so TucDoc is making it.

First off, TucDoc is not ending the marriage. His wife is ending the marriage.

And if the lady is someone that he shares interests with so he goes out to dinner with her once in a while I don’t have a problem with that. If he wants to see this Broadway play and his wife is refusing to go with him and this lady also want to attend, I see nothing wrong with them going to see the same play and taking a flight together so they aren’t by themselves. But hopefully the spouse would care enough in either case to want to be involved, rather than just forbid activities. If a TucDoc had been the one to want to fly to New York for a baseball game, do you think he would have listened if his wife had forbid it? I doubt it since he doesn’t respect her opinions.

So it’s ok for me to go on a platonic date with a man and air my dirty laundry? This is not a sin how??? It’s ok for me to go on an airplane with a man even though my husband doesn’t want me to go and I won’t let him come along??? 🤷
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I do not believe that you value the sacrament of marriage.
 
tucdoc said:
My wife asked for a legal separation, for me to stay in the house “to raise our children”. I refused because I deserve better than that, as do the children, and she as well. If she doesn’t want to be married to me, then we need to go on with our lives. In my Divorce Recovery group there are people who tried to live parallel lives in the same house. They ultimately divorce and move out. A priest friend told me it takes two to have a marriage, one can’t do it by themselves.

We have a right and responsibility to tell people are needs. If I wasn’t loving my wife the way she wanted, it was her responsibility to inform me. She admits to not being a good communicator, to stuffing feeling rather than expressing them. None of us is a mind reader. Yes, I could have been more approachable, and just asked if she was OK. I recall deciding not to engage so much with her when I tried to cheer her up after her mom died now 7 years ago. I remember saying to myself after many attempts at trying to interact with her “it’s hard to make things better, it’s easy to make them worse”. So, I did back-off on prompting her to communicate with me.
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Men are generally not good in those situations and often men need a swift hit over the head to smarten up 😉

I go to my girlfriends for support when my husband is lacking support. When I had my son, I had postpartum depression and my husband’s attitude was “snap out of it and be a mother.”

I could sit here today (one year later) and harbor resentment towards him, or I can just accept that he’s not good with emotional “stuff”, get over it and move on. My husband and I are now doing well, and like you, he’s not much of a communicator and I’m ok with that b/c that’s who he is. I have to accept my husband with his strengths and weaknesses.

We all have emotional baggage that we carry into our relationships.
 
Marie5890 said:
Tucdoc,
Prayers for you all.

(try not to get caught up into the “advice” or whatever of people who are just recently reading your story. No need to rehash the pain and open wounds that hopefully are slowly healing)

God Bless.
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👍👍

I agree.

God bless

jesus g
 
angelerulastiel said:
TucDoc is ending the marriage because he feels unloved and not respected. Same for her. So you can’t criticize her without criticizing him on that point. Remember, she has basically refused to make the actual decision to get divorced, so TucDoc is making it.
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If you had read the thread, you would see where TucDoc has been going to counseling. His wife refused counseling. Now that the financial reality of separation is sinking in on her, she wants him to move back “for the sake of the kids.” hmm…
And if the lady is someone that he shares interests with so he goes out to dinner with her once in a while I don’t have a problem with that. If he wants to see this Broadway play and his wife is refusing to go with him and this lady also want to attend, I see nothing wrong with them going to see the same play and taking a flight together so they aren’t by themselves. ** But hopefully the spouse would care enough in either case to want to be involved, rather than just forbid activities. ** If a TucDoc had been the one to want to fly to New York for a baseball game, do you think he would have listened if his wife had forbid it? I doubt it since he doesn’t respect her opinions.
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TucDoc did try to go to baseball games with her. She didn’t want him go come along. TucDoc would not/did not engage in the kind of behavior his wife did because he knows it is wrong. He never put her in such a situation.

Read the thread before you post.
 
tucdoc said:
My wife asked for a legal separation, for me to stay in the house “to raise our children”.
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Part of two people raising children is to set their expectations for their relationships in the future. How to treat your spouse, how you should be expected to be treated by your spouse. I don’t see how you moving back in modeling two people living separate lives would be healthy for the kids in the long run. Counseling and then moving in to rebuild the relationship, yeah. Moving in ‘for the sake of the kids’. No.

I hope you’ve really made your place their home as well, not just a house they visit. Giving them a stable, secure, safe place where they can choose to be happy and know they are a priority should be the focus, not catering/pleasing/placating an ex to mitigate the consequences of her decision. If your ex is like mine, this will eventually spill over into her relationship with her kids. You being there for them, without making any negative comments about her, letting them determine their own relationship with her will be critical.
 
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