Wife has given up

[nonanon]

Remember, she has basically refused to make the actual decision to get divorced, so TucDoc is making it.

I take it that you think there’s something “good” about this “refusal”–that she’s somehow taking the high road with this. Is that right?

And if the lady is someone that he shares interests with so he goes out to dinner with her once in a while I don’t have a problem with that. If he wants to see this Broadway play and his wife is refusing to go with him and this lady also want to attend, I see nothing wrong with them going to see the same play and taking a flight together so they aren’t by themselves. But hopefully the spouse would care enough in either case to want to be involved, rather than just forbid activities.

Angelerulastiel, you’re changing the scenario. In Tucdoc’s case, his wife didn’t want him involved in the baseball trip. So in my “Broadway play” example, the same applies.

So I’m still wondering how you’d see things if the roles were reversed: what if your husband “announced” to you that he was flying across the country with a woman “friend” on an overnight trip to see a Broadway play, didn’t want you to go, but wanted you to stay home and look after the kids? How would you feel? Do you think that would be consistent with his marriage vows to you?

 

[angelerulastiel]

No, I don’t think she’s taking the high road by refusing to sign the papers. I’m just pointing out that she is not the one taking action so you can’t blame her for getting ending the marraige when TucDoc is the one ending the marriage. I think that she is using the separation idea rather than divorce to try to back down gracefully, but TucDoc won’t allow that. He wants action now and doesn’t want to have to be patient anymore.

You know, I don’t really blame her for not wanting to go with him on the trip. All he seems to do is lecture her. She spends too much, she should get over the past, and she shouldn’t have male friends (that he met was okay with originally). It’s not a good way to handle it, but I wouldn’t blame any man or woman for wanting a vacation from being ordered around. And he told her no before saying he’d go with, and being told no generally makes people more pigheaded. The first response shouldn’t be “no you can’t go” but “let’s talk about this”.

And I take marriage very seriously. But I don’t accuse people of having affairs just because they are talking to someone of the opposite sex, have friends of the opposite sex, or do fun activities with friends of the opposite sex.

And yes, it is her responsibility to let him know she is unhappy. She did, he didn’t really do anything about it other than insist she see counseling. And give up when she refused to see his counselor so the counselor could tell her all the things she was doing wrong. I wouldn’t go under those circumstances either. He didn’t want to go to counseling to work through their problems together, he wanted her to see everything she was doing wrong.

 

[nonanon]

Angelerlastiel, we’re drifting off-topic in this, and I don’t want to just debate painful events in others’ lives. But I think there are younger, unmarried Catholic readers who may not yet understand the marriage relationship well enough to see this situation the way most of the posters do. I hope Tucdoc and the group can indulge me one last post on this in the hope that it may help others. I am not a counselor–the views are my own.

…I’m just pointing out that she is not the one taking action so you can’t blame her for getting ending the marraige when TucDoc is the one ending the marriage. I think that she is using the separation idea rather than divorce to try to back down gracefully, but TucDoc won’t allow that…

I think saying “she is not the one taking action” takes too narrow a view, and isn’t a fair description. Marriage is only ended by separation or divorce in a legal sense. The marriage relationship really ends well before that, when the trust, commitment, and love have left. Tucdoc’s wife is far from blameless in bringing that about. I think the question of “who files” usually has little or no moral significance.

It seems that what Tucdoc’s wife is asking for is parallel lives under the same roof, with a legal separation. This isn’t marriage at all–it’s a mockery of marriage. It’s not “backing down gracefully”, it’s emotional abuse of Tucdoc. Have you asked yourself how you would feel if your husband asked you to legally separate, but live under the same roof, pay the bills, and take care of the kids while he didn’t work and went out socializing with other women? I think most would agree that by seriously proposing this kind of arrangement, a spouse is so undermining trust that, in the absence of complete repentance, the marriage relationship is ended.

…You know, I don’t really blame her for not wanting to go with him on the trip. All he seems to do is lecture her. She spends too much, she should get over the past, and she shouldn’t have male friends (that he met was okay with originally). It’s not a good way to handle it, but I wouldn’t blame any man or woman for wanting a vacation from being ordered around. And he told her no before saying he’d go with, and being told no generally makes people more pigheaded. The first response shouldn’t be “no you can’t go” but “let’s talk about this”.

You seem to be sensitive to anything “authoritarian”, and that’s OK. Maybe Tucdoc’s wife feels that way. We all have our hot buttons. And all married people get irritated at their spouses, feel resentment toward them sometimes. Sometimes these feelings are very deep. So I sympathize that Tucdoc’s wife probably felt that. But those feelings don’t justify the actions that followed.

To live up to the vow to love and honor, preserve the relationship and family, we can’t try to emotionally punish our spouses over our own feelings. If we act on negative feelings by trying to inspire similar or worse negative feelings in our spouse, trust and ultimately marriage are destroyed. Things like having affairs, threatening affairs, threatening divorce, or anything else that seeks to inspire strong negative emotions in the other in response to negative emotions we feel fall in this category. It’s hard to resist this temptation sometimes–it’s hard work to maintain a marriage, and failing in this area is serious sin. But the vow to “love and honor” means you’re committed to doing hard things.

Having said that, there still can come a time when it’s clear that a spouse has abandoned the commitment, or by their actions has turned the relationship into something that seriously threatens the physical or emotional well-being of the other spouse and family. In this case, there can be a moral obligation to separate or divorce. And I think that’s where Tucdoc is.

Tucdoc, you’re in my prayers. I think you’ve left no stone unturned in trying to work things out. And I applaud you’re courage in seeking help and sharing here–I think the discussion has helped many more than you realize.

 

[angelerulastiel]

I think his wife is seeking a divorce because his emotional neglect is threatening her emotional well being. His authoritarian and paternal attitudes are a part of that.

And the situation she suggests would probably be what it was before, that TucDoc pays the bills and she takes care of the house and kids, which I think any SAHM will tell you IS work, the way they’ve been doing, that way the kids’ lives are less disrupted. Do you have any idea how disruptive switching houses is? It wastes huge portions of time and effort.

And I think his wife would be willing to fix the marriage given time. Right now she is smarting too much and is lashing out. I perceive her suggesting that they separate but still live together as a way of moving back towards the marriage without admitting it was a bad idea to get divorced, not just a money grab. I think she’s realized this is a bad idea, but doesn’t know how to fix it. I don’t think he should move back in, but I do think he should give it some more time before giving up.

TucDuc has listened to the other side telling him he’s right, she’s wrong, he needs to hold firm, refuse to do anything until she goes to counseling and that has not fixed the marriage. Maybe he should try to see it a different way for a little bit. I don’t think he has any idea of how hurt she is. Like the example of her mother’s death. She felt abandoned in her time of need. In that situation, TucDoc broke* her* trust. And while TucDoc has said he’s sorry, sorry doesn’t fix broken trust. And to her way of thinking he hasn’t done anything else to fix the broken trust, so why should she trust him? She hasn’t felt the love from him in quite a while. So either person can blame the other for ending the marriage in the sense you are talking about. This woman is in pain and can’t see TucDoc’s pain, but he can’t seem to see her pain either.

I have never said his wife isn’t making mistakes, she is. But there’s plenty of people pointing them out, so I don’t need to repeat it.

 

[Serap]

I think his wife is seeking a divorce because his emotional neglect is threatening her emotional well being. His authoritarian and paternal attitudes are a part of that.

And the situation she suggests would probably be what it was before, that TucDoc pays the bills and she takes care of the house and kids, which I think any SAHM will tell you IS work, the way they’ve been doing, that way the kids’ lives are less disrupted. Do you have any idea how disruptive switching houses is? It wastes huge portions of time and effort.

And I think his wife would be willing to fix the marriage given time. Right now she is smarting too much and is lashing out. I perceive her suggesting that they separate but still live together as a way of moving back towards the marriage without admitting it was a bad idea to get divorced, not just a money grab. I think she’s realized this is a bad idea, but doesn’t know how to fix it. I don’t think he should move back in, but I do think he should give it some more time before giving up.

TucDuc has listened to the other side telling him he’s right, she’s wrong, he needs to hold firm, refuse to do anything until she goes to counseling and that has not fixed the marriage. Maybe he should try to see it a different way for a little bit. I don’t think he has any idea of how hurt she is. Like the example of her mother’s death. She felt abandoned in her time of need. In that situation, TucDoc broke* her* trust. And while TucDoc has said he’s sorry, sorry doesn’t fix broken trust. And to her way of thinking he hasn’t done anything else to fix the broken trust, so why should she trust him? She hasn’t felt the love from him in quite a while. So either person can blame the other for ending the marriage in the sense you are talking about. This woman is in pain and can’t see TucDoc’s pain, but he can’t seem to see her pain either.

I have never said his wife isn’t making mistakes, she is. But there’s plenty of people pointing them out, so I don’t need to repeat it.

some of what you are saying here makes sense, but in your previous posts, you have greatly lacked charity and understanding.

you have softened your low blows a little bit.

 

[tucdoc]

Angelerulastiel, I appreciate your candor. Your perspective is likely close to my wife’s point of view, and I do want to better understand how she sees the situation. I’ve tried to avoid to perverse “Golden Rule”. It really is OUR money, so WE should be making the decisions. I feel my wife has issues with spending (thousands of dollars a month in credit card bills), while I worry about the kids’ college funds and retirement. Yes, I frequently would tell her to stop spending so much. My frustration and resentment about her spending lead me to not being as emotionally supportive as I could have been. I felt she had a “life of leisure”, so what more could she want.

Nonanon, I do hope people reading this post can learn about the complexities of marriage. I had thought being faithful and a good provider were enough for a long, happy marriage. I realize now that emotional needs and managing expectations on fulfilling those needs is important, and that communication is the key to a successful marriage.

 

[faithfully]

I still can’t help but think her over spending is her major call for help. Just google over spending and depression. It makes a lot of sense with your situation. It really seems she was filling a void. And as it turns out, as most of us know, THINGS will never fill that void.

IF that’s the case, it’s just so sad that her depression and her way of dealing results in a worse situation.

Sadly, it sounds like she’s still self “medicating” with a credit card.

Tuc, you still have our prayers. As does your whole family.

 

[Serap]

Angelerulastiel, I appreciate your candor. Your perspective is likely close to my wife’s point of view, and I do want to better understand how she sees the situation. I’ve tried to avoid to perverse “Golden Rule”. It really is OUR money, so WE should be making the decisions. I feel my wife has issues with spending (thousands of dollars a month in credit card bills), while I worry about the kids’ college funds and retirement. Yes, I frequently would tell her to stop spending so much. My frustration and resentment about her spending lead me to not being as emotionally supportive as I could have been. I felt she had a “life of leisure”, so what more could she want.

Nonanon, I do hope people reading this post can learn about the complexities of marriage. I had thought being faithful and a good provider were enough for a long, happy marriage. I realize now that emotional needs and managing expectations on fulfilling those needs is important, and that communication is the key to a successful marriage.

I honestly think it depends on the woman. Women are like different plants. Some plants needs lots of sunlight and water and some plants are fine in the shade with a little bit of watering.

In your case, you have a wife who needs not only a lot of watering, but a tropical greenhouse too

 

[qui_est_ce]

Angelerlastiel, we’re drifting off-topic in this, and I don’t want to just debate painful events in others’ lives. But I think there are younger, unmarried Catholic readers who may not yet understand the marriage relationship well enough to see this situation the way most of the posters do. I hope Tucdoc and the group can indulge me one last post on this in the hope that it may help others. I am not a counselor–the views are my own.

I think saying “she is not the one taking action” takes too narrow a view, and isn’t a fair description. Marriage is only ended by separation or divorce in a legal sense. The marriage relationship really ends well before that, when the trust, commitment, and love have left. Tucdoc’s wife is far from blameless in bringing that about. I think the question of “who files” usually has little or no moral significance.

It seems that what Tucdoc’s wife is asking for is parallel lives under the same roof, with a legal separation. This isn’t marriage at all–it’s a mockery of marriage. It’s not “backing down gracefully”, it’s emotional abuse of Tucdoc. Have you asked yourself how you would feel if your husband asked you to legally separate, but live under the same roof, pay the bills, and take care of the kids while he didn’t work and went out socializing with other women? I think most would agree that by seriously proposing this kind of arrangement, a spouse is so undermining trust that, in the absence of complete repentance, the marriage relationship is ended.

You seem to be sensitive to anything “authoritarian”, and that’s OK. Maybe Tucdoc’s wife feels that way. We all have our hot buttons. And all married people get irritated at their spouses, feel resentment toward them sometimes. Sometimes these feelings are very deep. So I sympathize that Tucdoc’s wife probably felt that. But those feelings don’t justify the actions that followed.

To live up to the vow to love and honor, preserve the relationship and family, we can’t try to emotionally punish our spouses over our own feelings. If we act on negative feelings by trying to inspire similar or worse negative feelings in our spouse, trust and ultimately marriage are destroyed. Things like having affairs, threatening affairs, threatening divorce, or anything else that seeks to inspire strong negative emotions in the other in response to negative emotions we feel fall in this category. It’s hard to resist this temptation sometimes–it’s hard work to maintain a marriage, and failing in this area is serious sin. But the vow to “love and honor” means you’re committed to doing hard things.

Having said that, there still can come a time when it’s clear that a spouse has abandoned the commitment, or by their actions has turned the relationship into something that seriously threatens the physical or emotional well-being of the other spouse and family. In this case, there can be a moral obligation to separate or divorce. And I think that’s where Tucdoc is.

Tucdoc, you’re in my prayers. I think you’ve left no stone unturned in trying to work things out. And I applaud you’re courage in seeking help and sharing here–I think the discussion has helped many more than you realize.

Thank you for your wise and thoughtful post.

I had written earlier that I sought a divorce from my husband. The marriage was over long before that. I went to counseling. We went to counseling. The counselor wanted to see my husband alone for a while before continuing marriage counseling with the two of us. EXH kept saying he was going to counseling, but things weren’t getting better. I finally called the counselor and he said EXH hadn’t seen him in six months. EXH was also a spender. He wasn’t depressed. He was filling up a void, a bottomless pit. If we couldn’t pay the bills, he would blame me for not telling him to buying stuff.

angelerulastiel, if you had any idea of how hard divorce is, you would be a little more appreciated of what Tucdoc is going through. Even thou my husband was a nasty mean verbally abusive man, it was still the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do in my life. After it was all over, I still missed him. I had my kids crying every night wanting to go back to Daddy.

I still rehash and wonder if I could have done something to change the outcome - 13 years later.

 

[Serap]

Thank you for your wise and thoughtful post.

I had written earlier that I sought a divorce from my husband. The marriage was over long before that. I went to counseling. We went to counseling. The counselor wanted to see my husband alone for a while before continuing marriage counseling with the two of us. EXH kept saying he was going to counseling, but things weren’t getting better. I finally called the counselor and he said EXH hadn’t seen him in six months. EXH was also a spender. He wasn’t depressed. He was filling up a void, a bottomless pit. If we couldn’t pay the bills, he would blame me for not telling him to buying stuff.

angelerulastiel, if you had any idea of how hard divorce is, you would be a little more appreciated of what Tucdoc is going through. Even thou my husband was a nasty mean verbally abusive man, it was still the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do in my life. After it was all over, I still missed him. I had my kids crying every night wanting to go back to Daddy.

I still rehash and wonder if I could have done something to change the outcome - 13 years later.

hugs to you and empathy!!

 

[qui_est_ce]

hugs to you and empathy!!

 

[cviolette]

Angelerulastiel, I appreciate your candor. Your perspective is likely close to my wife’s point of view, and I do want to better understand how she sees the situation. I’ve tried to avoid to perverse “Golden Rule”. It really is OUR money, so WE should be making the decisions. I feel my wife has issues with spending (thousands of dollars a month in credit card bills), while I worry about the kids’ college funds and retirement. Yes, I frequently would tell her to stop spending so much. My frustration and resentment about her spending lead me to not being as emotionally supportive as I could have been. **I felt she had a “life of leisure”, so what more could she want. **

Nonanon, I do hope people reading this post can learn about the complexities of marriage. I had thought being faithful and a good provider were enough for a long, happy marriage. I realize now that emotional needs and managing expectations on fulfilling those needs is important, and that communication is the key to a successful marriage.

I can’t tell you how many times I heard my husband similar to the bolded. The fact that he felt that way let me know just how little he appreciated me and what I do for the family. I still get so angry at my husband for not being there during a very dark period in my life. Not only for me but for my kids because I was not capable of being a good mom at the time. I know that now. I didn’t know it at the time.

Faithfully has a good point. She could be self medicating her depression with spending. I self medicated too but it just made mine get worse. Turning to God and therapy helped me get better. When I think back to that time in my life, it doesn’t seem like it was even me. I was so lost. I needed my husband to throw me a life jacket and he threw me an anchor.

I agree with a lot of what angel says. But then again, I can relate to your wife.

 

[tucdoc]

The kids spent the night with me last night. My wife wanted them out of the house because they had a fight in her car and spilled a sport drink on the back seat and on her purse. She is having the car cleaned this morning, so I am taking the kids to school.
When I picked them up, I told them both that I love them and will always be there for them.

I worry about the kids and how all of this is affecting them. I want to ask my wife once again if she would consider counseling.

 

[Serap]

The kids spent the night with me last night. My wife wanted them out of the house because they had a fight in her car and spilled a sport drink on the back seat and on her purse. She is having the car cleaned this morning, so I am taking the kids to school.
When I picked them up, I told them both that I love them and will always be there for them.

I worry about the kids and how all of this is affecting them. I want to ask my wife once again if she would consider counseling.

don’t ever give up. you never know…you never know…

i have even heard of couples re-marrying after a divorce.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The kids spent the night with me last night. My wife wanted them out of the house because they had a fight in her car and spilled a sport drink on the back seat and on her purse. She is having the car cleaned this morning, so I am taking the kids to school.

She is HAVING the car cleaned?

 

[Serap]

She is HAVING the car cleaned?

she’s married into money and she likes it. wish I could get my car cleaned whenever there is a spill. I had to pay $2 at the gas station to vaccuum my van just last week.

 

[qui_est_ce]

she’s married into money and she likes it. wish I could get my car cleaned whenever there is a spill. I had to pay $2 at the gas station to vaccuum my van just last week.

I vacuum mine out myself and clean the spills myself. Oxyclean is magic.

 

[tucdoc]

My wife just asked me for more money, now that the overdraft is maxed out. There are checks she has written and she has insufficient funds. I am at my wits end and am waiting to hear back from my attorney (who is in court most of the day).

 

[qui_est_ce]

My wife just asked me for more money, now that the overdraft is maxed out. There are checks she has written and she has insufficient funds. I am at my wits end and am waiting to hear back from my attorney (who is in court most of the day).

Are you giving her money above and beyond what you are required by the court? No wonder she can afford to “have” the spill cleaned up.

You need to stop subsidizing her and let her be responsible for her own consequences.

She’s got the best of both worlds. You have the worst.

 

[TexasCatholic99]

I honestly think it depends on the woman. Women are like different plants. Some plants needs lots of sunlight and water and some plants are fine in the shade with a little bit of watering.

In your case, you have a wife who needs not only a lot of watering, but a tropical greenhouse too

Amen sister, you said it.

I worry about the kids and how all of this is affecting them. I want to ask my wife once again if she would consider counseling.

God Bless you my friend, I have been through some of what you are going through. I would give it a little more time. It seems to have worked for me, so far. And it also sounds like it can work for you. I would move back in, but with the understanding that there will be no separation and that we need to work things out. Sometimes our partners need to know that you can be firm but fair. I believe that people in general respect that. Obviously, you need to do it with a kind heart. If she refuses then still give it time, what’s the rush?

In the last 7 months I have learned so much about being a better Catholic, husband and father. Probably the most important thing that I have learned was that I am not #1, nor will I ever be #1. You have not only to believe it, you have to live it. I give now not expecting much in return, I think that is the true meaning of love, self sacrifice. It’s very difficult for us guys to do that, especially if we are not use to it.

I have been through several types of “therapy” sessions. Right now I am in a program called “That man is you” (you can google it, there is also a similar program for women). It is being given by my catholic church. It is teaching me so much, but more than that the people that are at my table are teaching me as well. I have also been to marriage counseling and a retreat called ACTS.

You see my friend, I learned a long time ago that if you don’t REALLY CHANGE who you are or what you do then please don’t expect anything else to change. And change takes time. That being said, you CANNOT change someone who does not want to change either. That person has to change on their own, but meanwhile your actions should help that person decide whether or not they want to change. Hopefully that makes sense.

It has been 7 months since my wife asked me for a divorce. Since then, she has put the word “Divorce” aside and we are now communicating and on a positive note more intimate. Maybe not as often in the bedroom, but out in public and in front of the kids we give each other kisses and hugs all of the time. I try and kiss her when she gets home from work and I give her hugs often. And a few months back she started returning them. We go out on a date every other weekend when she doesn’t work (because she works every other weekend). The weeks that she has to work weekends I try and take her out to lunch on one of her off days. She usually picks all of the places we go. You see my friend, I don’t care where we go or what we do, the only thing that matters is that I am spending time with her and for that small amount of time I am all hers. She gets my undivided attention. I look her in the eyes when she speaks to me and we actually have great conversations.

She still refuses to go to counseling or see a priest, so I don’t pressure her anymore. But, she has improved her outlook on our relationship somewhat. The other day we (the family) went and saw COURAGIOUS, a movie she refused to see with me earlier because she thought it was too religious. I was shocked when she went with us, she fought it a little but when she saw that it did not bother me she went anyway. I told her that if she did not want to go then she didn’t have to, but that the kids and I were going.

I believe that she doesn’t want to get too involved with the church because she is feeling guilty about her previous actions (wanting to Divorce me). This past Saturday she came back from running 4 miles and I was lying in bed and she came up and kissed me, then she came back a few minutes later and kissed me again. Later that day we all went to mass.

Faith in my God, the Love I have for my wife and learning which battles are worth fighting was MY key to not only a happier marriage but to a happier me.

LET GO AND LET GOD, he knows what he is doing.
God Bless
TC99