Wife of a priest

[OrdinaryMelkite]

The current priest’s wife at our Melkite Church does not really take part in the life of our community. She’s actually more of an RC woman. The founder of our Church’s widow, though, is one of the spiritual centers of our community. She was there at the beginning of our small church 20-plus years ago and she is still there. I know her personally. Great and holy lady.

 

[Vico]

I know that in the particular canons of the Ruthenian Church, there is still that rule that they need to ask the Vatican before ordaining a married man into the presbyteriate (did I say it right?). But such canons are not present in the Ukrainian Church. There is a video on YouTube on the St. Elias channel of one of their deacons being reassigned to the US, and in the US he was ordained a priest. And if you read the description of the video, the person from St. Elias put some greetings wishing the now-priest well and his wife and kids. So he is a married priest ordained in the US in the Ukrainian Church. At least there’s one example.

The general eastern canon is:

CCEO Canon 758 §3. The particular law of each Church sui iuris or special norms established by the Apostolic See are to be followed in admitting married men to sacred orders.

You are referring to this Byzantine USA particular law. This was promulgated in 1999, but prior to that Archbishop Judson Procyk had submitted a law to Rome for approval, that would have allowed Byzantine bishops in the United States to ordain married men without special permission. It was rejected by Rome, so the law below resulted:

Byz. Part. Canon 758 §3
§1. Married men, after completion of the formation prescribed by law, can be admitted to the order of deacon
§2. Concerning the admission of married men to the order of the presbyterate, the special norms issued by the Apostolic See are to be observed, unless dispensations are granted by the same See in individual cases.

The Ukrainian Canon eqivalent (Canada) is:

Can. 99 (CCEO c. 758 §3) Under ordinary circumstances, married candidates can be ordained a minimum of one year after exemplary married life, which bears witness to the domestic Church, unless the eparchial bishop, under other circumstances, determines otherwise.

archeparchy.ca/documents/Particular_Law_Canons.pdf

 

[Hesychios]

… I read before in the Chaldean Rite that they will only ordain celibate men, although for a good reason (not specified what the good reason is) they can ordain married men. So its not a hard rule of celibacy, but the preference for celibate men is clear.

This preference may be true of the Chaldean Rite of the [Papal] Catholic communion.

But as far as I know it is not true of their mother church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This preference may be true of the Chaldean Rite of the [Papal] Catholic communion.

But as far as I know it is not true of their mother church.

Are ACotE priests mostly married?

 

[Aramis]

Catholic Priests cannot be married . Their spouse is God. They pledge all loyalty to their Bishop. The duty of a husband it to his wife. There would be a conflict between loyalty to a wife and to the Bishop.

Someone better inform the Roman-Rite Archbishop Roger of Anchorage of that… After all, he Ordained Scott Medlock, and Fr. Scott’s married.

Seriously, there’s a lot of ignorance on that score. Don’t beat yourself up, but really, you’re dead wrong.

Roman Rite men may not become Ordained to the Presbyterate (priesthood) once married, but most of the EC’s do allow married men to be married, and all allow married men to be ordained Deacons (including the Romans). Former protestant preachers may be ordained Roman Rite priests upon conversion and completion of seminary or equivalent training.

 

[Little_Boy_Lost]

Are ACotE priests mostly married?

I second this question.

 

[Vico]

Someone better inform the Roman-Rite Archbishop Roger of Anchorage of that… After all, he Ordained Scott Medlock, and Fr. Scott’s married.

Seriously, there’s a lot of ignorance on that score. Don’t beat yourself up, but really, you’re dead wrong.

Roman Rite men may not become Ordained to the Presbyterate (priesthood) once married, but most of the EC’s do allow married men to be married, and all allow married men to be ordained Deacons (including the Romans). Former protestant preachers may be ordained Roman Rite priests upon conversion and completion of seminary or equivalent training.

Now, I know that you meant: “EC’s do allow married men to be ordained”.

 

[5Loaves]

That makes sense, though I’ve never heard of it in Orthodoxy it wouldn’t really surprise me to hear a Deacon’s wife called Matushka.

It is an Orthodox deacon’s wife I’m thinking of.

I wonder if this is something more specific to your area, your particular church (Ruthenian if I remember, though I don’t know what that means exactly. Someday I’ll have to find a correspondence of where y’all’s churches come from; the only one I can remember specifically is where the Russian Catholic Church originated ) or maybe something in Eastern Catholicism in general? Then again, you do say “of the East” so maybe you’re speaking of Orthodox young men as well.

Certainly could be more specific to my area (northern CA). I don’t get around much. I’m Russian Greek Catholic, not Ruthenian. The guys I was referring to were one Chaldean/Assyrian (he’s in a combined parish so I don’t know which Church he is enrolled in canonically), and two were Antiochian. So all three are Orthodox. Unfortunately at this time the only guys I know who are discerning a vocation are Latins and Orthodox. Well, it’s not unfortunate because they will be wonderful priests! But the Latin will be bi-ritual but as a Latin not married, and the Orthodox, well, is Orthodox so won’t be serving my parish.

 

[Vico]

Sorry, who’s they?

Most of the priests that come from Ukraine that come to our province either as visitors or to relocate here are married. There are two priests who now live here who are married, one visiting priest last year, and now also a visiting deacon. Those who grew up in Canada and got ordained here are celibates. Not sure if that has something to do with the old rule that married men can only be ordained in the traditional territories of the Eastern Churches. Our young priests so far have all been from Ukraine. Not sure out East where there are more Ukrainian parishes and they’re closer to the schools/seminaries. We are a small Eparchy and our Bishop gets his priests currently from Ukraine.

For the Chaldean Rite, not sure. I know exactly one Chaldean priest. I never asked him but he looks celibate. They may prefer celibates but because the traditional territory of Chaldeans are currently Muslim countries (or predominantly Muslim), they are heavily persecuted, so the consideration of married men for ordination could be from the time Islam took over their lands.

Via Cum Data Fuerit in 1929 the Vatican reiterated a previous instruction forbidding bishops to appoint married priests to Greek Rite posts:

“In the meantime, as has already been several times provided, priests of the Greek-Ruthenian Rite who wish to go to the United States of North America and stay there must be celibates.”

Previously in 1897 it was stated that for those coming to the United States,only celibates or widowed priests coming without their children should be permitted in the United States.

But then with the promulgation of the CCEO 1991, it became possible, but still accordng to stipulations of the Holy See. Of the eastern Catholic churches, the only three I know of that do not have married priests are: Ethiopian, Syro-Malankara, and Syro-Malabar.

The Ruthenian Rite, became the Ukrainian and Ruthenian (and many Hungarian and Croatian were included):
1924 Ukrainian Exarchate USA 1924 – Bishop Constantine Bohachevsky
1924 Ruthenian Exarchate USA 1924 – Bishop Basil Takach
1924 Apostolic Exarchate Miskolc (Hungarian)
1929 Father Orestes Chornock begins what becomes the (ACROD) American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese (Constantinople)

 

[Halyna]

I am Ukrainian Catholic. Here’s what I was taught:
Married men CAN become priests, but once a priest they cannot marry.

I know several married priests. One who I know very well, who taught me since the age of 7 in school, explained to me that when in Seminary and for a period of time BEFORE ordination they are permitted to marry. Once ordinated they cannot.

This comes from way back in the old country. Unlike Roman Catholic parishes, Eastern Rite priests are not supported by the community because the community never had any means of supporting them. The priest had a chapel with some land (or more like a garden and a barn) that came with his duties and in order to support the church and help the community they were allowed to have families for means of support.

The wives of priests that I knew were usually the church secretaries and ran the Sunday schools & Cathechism classes. They would take care of the church vestments, altar, make the holy bread and communion bread, be sure to care for all the church needs like keeping up with the candles, the church bulletins, etc.— over an above raising their own children and keeping their own households.

And I must tell you by personal experience, the wife & children of priests (that I knew) had to be at all times ABOVE REPROACH! Any of us know how hard it is to raise children, and keep a household and but never - EVER - have I ever heard of any priest’s family doing anything even questionable, because they are under the constant eyes of God and the parishoners.

I love going to confession to a married priest as I think he has a better idea of what we deal with in our every day lives.

I also wonder this: One of the biggest scandals in the Catholic Church is pedophile priests and how the Roman Catholic Church deals with this. I wonder if more married men became priests (Eastern or Roman Catholic) I wonder if that issue would dissolve.

Now, a little bit off the subject: The reason abstaining from meat on Fridays became voluntary instead of required is for the same reason as in my paragraph #3: People who cannot afford meat, abstaining from meat is not a sacrifice. I remember my mom telling me that her mother had bacon grease over potatoes on a Thursday for dinner and her mother threw it out for the pigs on Friday because it was “meat flavored”. My mom said she was so hungry, if her mother wasn’t home, she would have gone to the pig pen and gotten out those potatoes for herself.

God bless you all and if the Holy Spirit granted the grace through me to enlighten you I thank Him.

 

[Hesychios]

Are ACotE priests mostly married?

Yes.

In fact, according to Father Roberson at CNEWA:

Synods in the 5th century also decreed that celibacy should be obligatory for no one in this church, including bishops. A number of bishops and even patriarchs were married until the early 6th century, when the decision was taken to ordain only celibate monks to the episcopate. Priests, however, have always been allowed to marry, even after ordination.

 

[Vico]

…

I also wonder this: One of the biggest scandals in the Catholic Church is pedophile priests and how the Roman Catholic Church deals with this. I wonder if more married men became priests (Eastern or Roman Catholic) I wonder if that issue would dissolve…

No, being married would not help, because it is not a matter of not having sexual relations with a wife. Pedophiles typically have trouble relating to people their own age desiring to have power and control in a relationship, which is easy with children.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I also wonder this: One of the biggest scandals in the Catholic Church is pedophile priests and how the Roman Catholic Church deals with this. I wonder if more married men became priests (Eastern or Roman Catholic) I wonder if that issue would dissolve.

As what Vico said and in addition to that. Many cases of sexual abuse are done by married men, even clergy or leaders of Protestant denominations. But this will also extend to secular people like teachers, sports coaches, etc. Its not even a question of the person being sexually deprived which forces them to do such despicable acts. As Vico has said, it usually has something to do about having power over the victim.

 

[boncrayon]

Must appologize from my Roman Catholic approach to this posting. Eastern Rite is apparently not my forte’!

 

[Little_Boy_Lost]

I have a friend who went to an orthodox school when she was younger and the priest who ran the school was beloved by many. Unfortunately it turns out he eloped with a mistress and eventually separated from his wife and is now estranged from his kids living with this other woman. Sad times.

 

[ConstantinePX]

I am Roman, however Ive always thought that men should be allowed to be married and be priests. I base this A) On historical fact that early church fathers and their successors were sometimes married and had families and B) It is denying someone a Sacrament which I believe is totally inhumane but I will not get into that.

IN RETROSPECT, I can understand a few reasons why priests should NOT be married. Mainly focusing on the fact that Priests have an income that legally classifies them as in poverty (less then 36k gross a year or so?) and they have major responsibilities to their parish… these social and economic factors make it VERY hard if not impossible to maintain a HEALTHY Christian family… a true sacred marriage is one where the spouses are loving and intimate, have plenty of time with each other, to have children and to raise their children. A priest in a large parish will have a very hard time living up to this obligation to keep his sacramental bond pure, holy, and healthy, and it is unfair to the wife and children…not to mention the long running Roman tradition and ideal that ordination is actually a priests marriage to Queen Mary and the Church and that he is to devout to her as his bride and not another.

I believe a more reasonable approach is to allow matrimonial ordinations but place a restriction on fathering large families? Although I have never met a Byzantine priest with more then 2 kids.

Food for thought I guess!

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Certainly, many of my Latin Catholic friends and the people they know are convinced that a married priesthood in the Latin Church would help things in the “sex abuse” department - I don’t know.

I come from a family of married priests (14 of them were doctors of theology and philosophy). My grandfather was a married priest with seven children (nine, but two died soon after birth). His wife, grandmother Irene, came from a priestly family and her father died when he came home one night after working physically all day with builders working on his new church. His wife, Alexandra (after whom I am named), spent the rest of her life on the pension provided by the Metropolitan, giving it away to her seven grandchildren, praying ceaselessly and living in very modest conditions (it’s my dream to visit her grave in Ukraine one day).

Our Patriarch, Joseph the Confessor, who spent 18 years in Siberia for the Catholic faith, was initially against married priests (my father was in the seminary when he was the rector and he insisted my father sign a document committing him to celibacy - happily, dad left . . .).

But when the Soviets came and the Ukrainian Catholic Church was destroyed, Joseph saw that married priests tended to adhere to the faith more than celibates because their families supported them in this. That changed his mind forever and at Vatican II he gave an impassioned plea for married priests throughout the Catholic Church - quite an amazing turnabout, given his background and strict Jesuit training.

In fact, today there are thousands of married Latin Rite priests who have had to leave the active priesthood because they refuse to live a lie.

Yes, they broke canon law in so doing - but the Church has ultimate power over canon law in this regard.

I don’t understand how the Roman Catholic Church will tolerate priestly shortages as it does when there are literally thousands of such priests (and their priesthood is forever) willing to come back, yes, with their wives and children - and who already support themselves very well.

Does the Roman Catholic Church see marriage as somehow an inferior state, unbecoming the high estate of the Priesthood?

Alex

 

[ConstantinePX]

Does the Roman Catholic Church see marriage as somehow an inferior state, unbecoming the high estate of the Priesthood?

I like your argument up until this point, I dont believe we should take this attitude that it is unbefitting. The master was never married or fathered children, although he was God, but the point remains. There is always the aspect of imitating Christ.

But of course if everyone imitated Christ and didnt marry or have healthy sexual relations with others then the human race would cease to exist so meh!

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Catholic Priests cannot be married . Their spouse is God. They pledge all loyalty to their Bishop. The duty of a husband it to his wife. There would be a conflict between loyalty to a wife and to the Bishop.

Well, you could not be more wrong.

My grandfather was an Eastern Catholic priest and was married with seven children. He was arrested by the soviets who imprisoned him, beat him and put needles under his fingernails.

His father was his Archbishop’s groundskeeper and it was that Archbishop who put my grandfather through seminary, knowing he would be a married priest (my grandfather could not have afforded to attend seminary otherwise).

So there was no conflict for my grandfather with respect to his Archbishop . . .

Our late Bishop here once said in a speech, “You know, I prefer married priests . . . They are always so well behaved! I guess it’s because they have their own bishop and patriarch in the person of their wives at home . . .”

My grandfather was always guided well by his wife. She would keep him in check with, “John, don’t do that, you’ll offend that person!” And so on.

When I was getting married, my wife ONLY agreed to lessons from a married priest. And she was right.

I think it is time the Roman Catholic Church realize that:

1. Celibacy is not an infallible dogma of the Church;
2. Marriage for priests can be very workable as it is in the Eastern Churches and for the Anglican/Lutheran pastors who are now coming into the Latin Church with their wives and children;
3. Roman Catholic priestly candidates should have the choice of whether to be married or single;
4. Rome should pardon the thousands of priests who were forced into inactive ministry as a result of their wishing to be married.

Celibate priests will always be around. But it is time to put pay to the illusion that priesthood and celibacy are part and parcel of the same vocation.

Alex

 

[ConstantinePX]

1. Celibacy is not an infallible dogma of the Church;

I certainly agree and Im sure the Pontiff would agree as well.

1. Marriage for priests can be very workable as it is in the Eastern Churches and for the Anglican/Lutheran pastors who are now coming into the Latin Church with their wives and children;

This is true and at the same time false, as it depends on the situation. Some priests can balance Church and Family to where both get just enough attention they need, but only the bare minimal, or it turns to the next extreme, where they focus on one but alienate another. There is no defiant answer to this. Each parish varies in size and need. In larger parishes this would be harder. It is not fair to the family or the parish if this is the case, as I know personally my Priest is occupied 24/7 with a parish of over 3000. He barely has time to pray his Liturgy of the Hours at night and the morning, let alone tend to a family if he had one.