Wifely submission, fair comparison?

[Belle10]

So many great responses already – I agree, neither of the relationships you mentioned are accurate for comparison. I’ve been trying lately to be more aware of being submissive myself…I’m a take-charge type of person, where DH is more easy going and will often defer to me, so sometimes I have to remind myself that I need to step back and just listen to his ideas more.

I heard a Priest describe once, that while the husband is the spiritual head, the wife is the spiritual heart. Both are equally important, and the body cannot survive without both…

What a beautiful way to think about it – I’m going to remember this! (and it happens to fit DH and I, as I am more “emotional” and he is more “logical!”)

I like 1ke’s explanation

But before I read that I was going to reply that it’s more of a priest-parishioner relationship. Not exactly, but it’s a lot closer than the boss-employee or parent-child. Each spouse has their time to be in the role of priest, as far as bringing spiritual light into the family (not advocating married or femal priests here ). What I was going for is that we each have our roles to play, neither is more important, and each is helping the other to get to Heaven. In the end, there is no other relationship like the husband-wife relationship that we can directly compare it to.

As for wifely submission, the way DH and I view it is that we put the other one first. It’s not a matter of me always being submissive to him, or of him being submissive to me all the time. It’s about giving 100%, 100% of the time. If I know something means a lot to him, I want to support him in that (so long as it’s not sinful, of course), and the same goes when something’s very important to me but perhaps DH doesn’t really have the same kind of enthusiasm about it. We just want each other to be happy. On all the big things and most of the little things, we’re blessed to truly be on the same page.

Hope that made sense and didn’t sound too rambly

Very nicely said.

The submission thing is not talking about little things
“I want to use Tide with Bleach”
“No, I want to use Cheer and I am the man of the house so submit to me and use Cheer now woman”.

It is in the important things, the things that matter.

:clapping:

 

[jwashu]

**I am most interested in hearing the opinions of self described happily married folks (men and women) who are also faithful Catholics.

Is it fair or accurate to compare a wife’s marital submission to:

1. a boss-employee relationship
2. a parent-child relationship

Men, do you view it this way? Women? Why or why not?**

Neither…

I believe that we should be 150% each and any submission is mutual.

My wife is suppose to submit to me as head of the household but I’m called to give up my life if necessary. Love your wife as Christ loved the Church. I don’t believe anything is more powerful that that.

I take the lead on certain things and she takes the lead on others. Should a difficult decision come up, we work through that together. Often I may make the final call but it’s definitely not a parent child or boss employee relationship.

Either of those IMHO would take away from the martial union as well. If we believe that the martial union is the point where we come closest to God next to the Eucharist then the relationship has to be equal. While Christ on Earth was submissive to the Father, He is still God. The love between the Father and the Son produce the Holy Spirit just like the love between an Husband and Wife produce a new live…

From a non religious standpoint, psychological, there is a reason we do not condone “relations” in the 2 types of relationships you mention… well multiple reasons. But one of them is because the relationship isn’t really equal and that can lead to coercion… which just isn’t healthy.

Joe

 

[mizznicole]

St. Thomas is hard to grasp on this subject, but worth consulting.

There is a hierarchy of relations between husband and wife. At the base there is the conjugal relation. From this generative work flows the work of nurturing and education, which is the main activity of the family. Because of the woman’s generative, nurturing, and teaching capacities the man has a duty to protect and provide for her. Therefore no divorce, no adultery, no fornication.

Family life produces emotional bonds between husband and wife which help them to cleave to one another. But even higher than the emotion and friendship is the spiritual relation; this is the image of Christ and the Church. And this is where I think things get most mysterious.

So really Husband-Wife is it’s own iconic category, and cannot be interchanged with Parent-Child or Boss-Worker.

This is pulling from S.T. I, Q. 92 - a thorny question that is easily misinterpreted, partly from translation problems…

 

[puzzleannie]

I am most interested in hearing the opinions of self described happily married folks (men and women) who are also faithful Catholics.

**Is it fair or accurate to compare a wife’s marital submission to: **

1. a boss-employee relationship

2. a parent-child relationship

Men, do you view it this way? Women? Why or why not?

don’t think either of these is a healthy model for a marital relationship. any man that tries #1 is going to get a taste of management-labor relations he is not going to like if he tries it in my house.

the submissiveness and mutual love Paul talks about in Ephesians and elsewhere most resembles the relationship between Christ and His Church, and indeed is modelled upon it.

I think and I bet Bama will agree with me, wives submit to your husbands in their area of expertise–as head of the family, the one with ultimate responsibility for guidance in the direction the family should go, and in all matters relating to yard work and auto maintenance. Men submit to your wives in everything that is her sphere–what to eat, where to go, how to furnish the house, paint color for the dining room etc. Obviously I am being facetious here.

 

[AHapka]

This is obviously the RIGHT answer, but since the Trinity is such a mystery and above our human comprehension, it is hard to know how that would apply to everyday married life.

Us mere mortals need examples and comparisons to something we can relate to in order to compute, know what I mean?

Jesus is our leader (and King), but yet he washed the feet of his bride, the Church (meant to mean his disciples)

A man should be willing to lead, but yet to also serve his wife in her needs. Jesus said that in order to lead, one must also serve. Hence one of the Pope’s titles is “Servant of the Servants of God.”

Such service can easily be seen in suffering things for your wife, but still providing direction and a rock. A rock in whatever may be going on in her world.

At least that’s how I see it. Now go use that first paragraph as an excuse to get footrubs

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

I am most interested in hearing the opinions of self described happily married folks (men and women) who are also faithful Catholics.

**Is it fair or accurate to compare a wife’s marital submission to: **

1. a boss-employee relationship

2. a parent-child relationship

Men, do you view it this way? Women? Why or why not?

No, on both comparisons.
In fact, we’d both consider that a rather insulting view of our marriage.

 

[Litcrit]

Originally Posted by Feanaro’s Wife
This is obviously the RIGHT answer, but since the Trinity is such a mystery and above our human comprehension, it is hard to know how that would apply to everyday married life.

Us mere mortals need examples and comparisons to something we can relate to in order to compute, know what I mean?

Marriage is a mystery too.

I heard an abbot of a monastery give a talk on marriage once… he was if wives had to submit to their husbands completely… he said yes… but he added ‘And husbands should also submit completely to their wives in a true Christisn marriage, because we as Christians die to ourselves. A marriage should be a competition in submission.’

Any man who tries to treat his wife as an employee or a child is not getting it right. Any man who thinks that being the spiritual head of the family means he can boss his wife around and order her around is not getting it right. God the Father does not treat His Son that way. Christ does not treat His Church that way.

And don’t forget that ‘spiritual head’ is the ideal… we are allowed to use common sense in our actual lives. In my family, I’m the one who is very stern about everyone waking up on time on a Sunday morning. Otherwise we’d never go to church.

 

[mdgspencer]

Another comparison is the relationship between God the Father and the Son, Jesus. Jesus did put himself in submission to the Father, as the Gospel of John makes it clear. But they were both God and equal in this way. They were equal, but the Son was in submission to the Father.
If we are followers of Jesus, this is something to cosider.

 

[capsaicin]

I’m back to flesh out my idea… My husband’s character is the defining one of the relationship and family (which would be a shock to most people who know us - they think I am the stronger and more dominant personality). His faith has been the stronger, he has been my guide in that. He is also the breadwinner at this point, which may change in the future, but this dynamic in our marriage will not. It’s very hard to explain. His influence is so deep, pervasive, and integral to the way we function that he is the head of the family, and we all treat him as such in our daily interactions. When he disciplines the kids, if I disagree or think he went overboard, as long as it is not an issue of safety or massive injustice, I talk to him privately later, and do not undermine him in front of the kids. That is a major one… making sure my kids see him as in charge, even though he spends fewer hours with them than I do.

Practical example: After five years off active duty, he wants to join the Army National Guard. Not something I am thrilled with, but I married a military guy, and I had no guarantee that that part of him would shut off at any point. It’s something he feels he needs to do in order to provide for the family better, and to fulfill a sense of duty inside him that is not satisfied with his civilian job. There is no question that we will support him, even if it means deployment, disability, physical or otherwise, or God forbid, losing him altogether. Why? Because this is his family, and he has earned and deserves the support and respect that he needs from us. Another one… he rides a motorcycle. Commutes to work on it every day. He rode one when I started dating him. Many people seem to think I should “make” him stop riding it, because he is a family man now and has kids to provide for and take care of. I married him knowing he was a rider and would likely never stop. How castrating would it be for me to suddenly demand that he give up part of who he is?

And yet… we are equals as two adults who choose to be together and build a family. From the outside, it may look like a traditional, mom at home, guy in charge earning paycheck family. Many people assume that he makes the decisions fairly unilaterally because of that. But, he married me for my brains, my loyalty, my nurturing nature, my integrity, and my moral courage. He doesn’t WANT a doormat! He would be bereft if I suddenly became one. We discuss major decisions, and most minor ones, and agree on a course of action. At times we have disagreed initially, it has worked out fairly evenly on whose position eventually won out through discussion and compromise.

If I asked him if he thought he should be a boss to an employee with me, or worse, a father to a child, he would resent the implication that our marriage was so unhealthy that it needed such a dynamic. He would also be offended by the idea that he would treat me with so little respect. He married a partner, not someone he has to monitor and keep tabs upon. He married someone he can trust to handle many things on her own, and would be fairly overwhelmed by an expectation that he should have final say on EVERYTHING. His job is demanding, and he wants to relax and enjoy the best things about having a family when he comes home. I think he would feel fairly harassed if I ran every single decision by him first.

I think that is why the suggestion of those two particular dynamics as a model for a marital relationship are so offensive to me. They indicate a lack of trust in one another.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

**I think the most important thing I have learned (epiphany!!!) is that submission is an ACT of the WILL. For a husband to “require” it or demand it would turn it into being dominated. In both examples (parent/child or boss/employee) there are repercussions to not “obeying”…and it is obeying in those cases, not submitting.

Christ asks us to follow him, he doesn’t “make” us…**

 

[kage_ar]

I think the most important thing I have learned (epiphany!!!) is that submission is an ACT of the WILL. For a husband to “require” it or demand it would turn it into being dominated. In both examples (parent/child or boss/employee) there are repercussions to not “obeying”…and it is obeying in those cases, not submitting.

Christ asks us to follow him, he doesn’t “make” us…

That is it !!!

 

[capsaicin]

Malia, I have a question for you. You may be upset by it, and if you are I apologize…

I am fairly new to posting but lurked for a long while. I have seen posts from you before about the wifely submission issue, and also about your illness and how your DH is sometimes not as compassionate or understanding about it as he could be. I also saw the one about how you should have gone to Retrouvaille before you had Lily… how long have you two been married? It seems to me such a young couple shouldn’t even have had time to get that deep into trouble yet…?

Is it possible that your husband feels justified in treating you as less than an equal because of your disabilities? And that it manifests in a less-than-supportive attitude and being demanding of submissiveness on your part… like you should be grateful he’s there and you need to show that by never challenging him in any way?

Again, I apologize if I have this wrong or if you feel I am being unfair to him. This is just something that gathered in my head from following your posts for a long stretch…

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

Malia, I have a question for you. You may be upset by it, and if you are I apologize…

I am fairly new to posting but lurked for a long while. I have seen posts from you before about the wifely submission issue, and also about your illness and how your DH is sometimes not as compassionate or understanding about it as he could be. I also saw the one about how you should have gone to Retrouvaille before you had Lily… how long have you two been married? It seems to me such a young couple shouldn’t even have had time to get that deep into trouble yet…?

Is it possible that your husband feels justified in treating you as less than an equal because of your disabilities? And that it manifests in a less-than-supportive attitude and being demanding of submissiveness on your part… like you should be grateful he’s there and you need to show that by never challenging him in any way?

Again, I apologize if I have this wrong or if you feel I am being unfair to him. This is just something that gathered in my head from following your posts for a long stretch…

**I can see how you could come to that conclusion and don’t worry, i am not offended.

We are working on issues that have been present (or should I say lacking?) since the beginning of our marriage. But, as we grow and mature in our faith we are figuring out what marriage is really about and trying to change attitudes and behaviors/habits that have been with us for 9 years (how long we’ve been married).

But overall my husband is a wonderful man and any hurt caused is not intentional and he is trying his best to live up to what God defines a husband to be. We are both responsible for our issues and are both willing to honor our commitment to eachother and work towards and more positive and loving marriage.
**