Will a Shepherds crisis force the Catholic Church to be more ecumenical?

[qui_est_ce]

Theoretically we could do very well with married clergy, but it isn’t so clear that we would do very well with married clergy. For one thing a lot of Catholics simply don’t want them. And I’m not just talking about “Traditionalist Catholics” (who, numerically, are much better represented here on CAF then they are in the “real world”).

I think the marriage thing adds a lot of baggage. It’s bad enough with women coming on to priests. I can’t imagine would it would be like to have a married priest. All the problems of marriage thrown in, divorce, affairs. Wayward children. Too many distractions.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The strong homiletics in some Protestant traditions sometimes comes with a price -and that being a lack of emphasis on the Eucharist, which should be the center of Christian worship.
That’s not to say both can’t be done.
Jon

I think that’s a huge problem for Catholics as well. I think most contemporary Catholics are extremely unschooled. I believe over 60% of church going Catholics either don’t believe in the Real Presence, or misunderstand the whole meaning of mass and Eucharist.

 

[mark_a]

Is this not indicative of a very deep underlying problem - namely, that despite the catholic in name numbers going up, there are not enough catholics sufficiently attuned to their faith to be listening for a calling to the priesthood or religious life?

The deeper, underlying problem is contraception. 97% of child-bearing aged Catholic couples pracice it.

The contraception issue is now THE biggest difference between Catholic teaching and Protestant teaching (or lack of it). Catholics who selfishly ignore the Church’s teachings regarding contraception also selfishly want grandchildren from their own 2.2 kids. Pressure to pass on the family name with only 1.1 (average) male children per family takes the Catholic priesthood almost completely out of the picture.

Or, on the basis that the gates of hell will not prevail againt her, do people think this must be the will of God, for some better or higher purpose?

Catholics loyal to the magisterial teachings of the Church are a shrinking number. We don’t think its the will of God, but we already know how the story ends. My opinion is we are well on our way toward the end.

If it continues, will this force the catholic church to be more ecumenical with it’s interactions with other denominations. Would such a crisis if it continues for example hasten the full communion of the orthodox and lutherans to Rome?

Ecumanism is fine and dandy and pastoral. No church works harder than the Catholic Church at it. But the whole “gates of hell” thing really applies to Church teaching. So if the non-WELS Lutherans (who don’t even allow for NFP) want to change back their teachings to the Catholic teachings they practiced for 400 years, then so be it.

Christianity is contracepting herself into oblivion, as evidenced by the Muslimization of Europe.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Catholics loyal to the magisterial teachings of the Church are a shrinking number. We don’t think its the will of God, but we already know how the story ends. My opinion is we are well on our way toward the end.

The end of what?

 

[mark_a]

The end of what?

THE end!

 

[Catholic20064]

The priest shortage could be addressed almost immediately if they would just train faithful unpaid elderly Catholic men to celebrate the mass, hear confessions and handle some other duties such as visiting the sick, etc. The administrative duties of a priest could be handled by professional priests. I’m sure the Lord can raise up priests when he needs them.

 

[JonNC]

The priest shortage could be addressed almost immediately if they would just train faithful unpaid elderly Catholic men to celebrate the mass, hear confessions and handle some other duties such as visiting the sick, etc. The administrative duties of a priest could be handled by professional priests. I’m sure the Lord can raise up priests when he needs them.

I don’t know, even in the Lutheran Church the Eucharist is celebrated, and confession heard only by ordained clergy. Can deacons do these kinds of things in a Catholic Church?
Jon

 

[twopekinguys]

There have been some interesting responses to all of this.

Our diocese (Peoria, Illinois) has an abundant number of seminarians, as well as permanent Deacons.

It seems like my parish in particular has one or two new seminarians each year. I really think alot of it is regional. Some areas are doing well, and others not so much. There was a time in our areas where numbers dwindled. In fact, our parish, (which is rather large) was staffed my members of an Augustinian order. But that was 20 + years ago.

We also have married clergy. One gentleman that I know personally was an Episcopalian minister who converted to Catholicism, became the head of Catechetics for our diocese, and was ultimately ordained. He has even been featured on EWTN’s Journey Home.

In some ways, a reduced number of active priests is good because it makes the laity get involved more. (which they should have been already)

Personally, I don’t think a reduced number of active priests is indicative of any type of crisis.

I also don’t think that the reduced number of clergy is limited to the RCC. Many protestant churches, including the independent ones have trouble attracting and keeping clergy.

 

[twopekinguys]

I don’t know, even in the Lutheran Church the Eucharist is celebrated, and confession heard only by ordained clergy. Can deacons do these kinds of things in a Catholic Church?
Jon

Permanent Deacons in the Catholic Church can Marry, Bury, and Baptize.

They cannot consecrate the Eucharist, and they cannot hear confessions. (They could hear confessions, but couldn’t provide absoultion…)

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I think the marriage thing adds a lot of baggage. It’s bad enough with women coming on to priests. I can’t imagine would it would be like to have a married priest. All the problems of marriage thrown in, divorce, affairs. Wayward children. Too many distractions.

It gets worse. Add to all the things you mentioned the fact that the Church would have to pay a priest enough to support his family. Do you really want to meet your pastor working the night shift at Walmart? Do you really want to find that your pastor is using artificial contraceptives because he can’t afford another child on his salary? If your parish is large enough to have a pastor and one or two associate pastors, do you really want to see three wives plus children in the rectory kitchen? Talk about too many cooks!!

 

[Harpazo]

I think the marriage thing adds a lot of baggage. It’s bad enough with women coming on to priests. I can’t imagine would it would be like to have a married priest. All the problems of marriage thrown in, divorce, affairs. Wayward children. Too many distractions.

I go to an Orthodox church and our priest is married. He’s a great father to his children, a wonderful provider to his wife and also takes care of his elderly mother. On top of that he is always available to talk to his parishioners and is always willing to hear confessions.

I’m sure it’s a struggle, but it’s a struggle to the kingdom of heaven. It’s worked for 2,000 years. I don’t see anything wrong with marriage and children. There’s nothing wrong with marriage, it’s what people do to ruin it.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[qui_est_ce]

There have been some interesting responses to all of this.

Our diocese (Peoria, Illinois) has an abundant number of seminarians, as well as permanent Deacons.
It seems like my parish in particular has one or two new seminarians each year.
Personally, I don’t think a reduced number of active priests is indicative of any type of crisis.

This has been my experience in St Louis. We have a seminarian every year. We are a small urban parish (1,200 families), but have three priests(one retired, one teaches at the university, and one pastor), two permanent deacons, and a visiting seminarian.

I also don’t think that the reduced number of clergy is limited to the RCC. Many protestant churches, including the independent ones have trouble attracting and keeping clergy.

I agree. I don’t think changing the celibacy rules or allowing women priests is the answer. We need to place our faith in God and cooperate with His plan.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Permanent Deacons in the Catholic Church can Marry, Bury, and Baptize.

They cannot consecrate the Eucharist, and they cannot hear confessions. (They could hear confessions, but couldn’t provide absoultion…)

They cannot marry after receiving Holy Orders.

 

[twopekinguys]

They cannot marry after receiving Holy Orders.

You may have misinterpreted what I wrote.

They can Marry (perform weddings), Bury (perform funerals), and Baptize. (perform baptisms).

I was not stating that they themselves could get married once they received Holy Orders.

 

[Catholic20064]

I don’t know, even in the Lutheran Church the Eucharist is celebrated, and confession heard only by ordained clergy. Can deacons do these kinds of things in a Catholic Church?
Jon

They’d be priests, not deacons.

 

[ferdie]

Who knows what lies ahead, maybe the end of the world is near.

 

[Peter_J]

A striking example of how far modernism has gotten in the Catholic Church is that the percentage of Catholics who want to see women ordained to the priesthood, is only slightly lower than the percentage of Catholics who want to see married priests. (I forget the exact percentages.) I even recall one Catholic poster (I don’t recall if it was on this forum or another forum) saying that he/she would be more open to the possibility of female priests than married priests.

 

[Daedelus76]

It’s interesting that there are over 10 times as many nuns as monks in the RCC. I didn’t know that, and it’s a bit surprising.

 

[Peter_J]

It’s bad enough with women coming on to priests. I can’t imagine would it would be like to have a married priest.

Statements like the above, albeit a bit shocking to modern ears, actually pale in comparison with statements made by American archbishops a little over a century ago. From the Catholic Information Network’s article Clash of the Titans …

The Roman Catholic archbishops met again in September of 1893 and addressed the issue of married priests in America. Cardinal Ledochowski had replied to Archbishop Corrigan’s letter from the November meeting of 1892 and had stated that the married priests “might be retained pro tempore [for the time being], but that as far as possible Greek monks (i.e., Ruthenian Catholic) should be procured.” The prudence of the Prefect was not a gift enjoyed by the American archbishops. In November of 1892 they had politely ignored Father Chanath’s urgent plea. Now, not quite one year later, they scorned the worth of the Greek Rite Ruthenian Catholics. They resolved:

“that the presence of married priests of the Greek Rite in our midst is a constant menace to the chastity of our unmarried clergy, a source of scandal to the laity and therefore the sooner this point of discipline is abolished before these evils obtain large proportions, the better for religion, because the possible loss of a few souls of the Greek Rite bears no proportion to the blessings resulting from uniformity of discipline.”

 

[StillWondering]

Well. I dont see 30 percent of nearly 3,000 parish members at daily mass 3 times a weekday. More like 20 and on a good day nearly 30. I am guessing people are on summer vacation, and attending elsewhere though.

This 31.4% is averaged over the entire nation and was published a couple of years ago, I think in 2005. There is a very large variance. In one community I have been in, the attendance is much below 30, but those that attend are quite happy while attending.

In my parents parish whenever I visit, I would see a very large attendance rate. However, it has markedly diminished in devotion over the last decade. Issues such as contraceptives, woman’s rights, and multiple marriages among other more subtle reasons has been the main complaint I have heard. However, I believe in the Church’s NFP only teaching and I strongly believe the woman’s rights are misunderstandings. I do not see women more respected than in a devout Catholic community.

Any other community, on the surface may have one story, but underneath, people can do all sorts of perversions, such as gossip, thinking lowly of others, and promoting values that are personal agenda based instead of thinking what is best of the women they are charged with defending. . However, in a devout Catholic community. graciousness and charity is given to any individual before the gender of the individual is taken into account. And when women are spoken to or spoken about I only hear kind words or words of support. Even for those who are having difficulty with Church teachings are accepted and supported so they can find the Love of Christ as support.

As for marriage issues, I personally believe that many people did not honestly know what they were getting into at first. “Are we prepared for marriage?” is a radio topic with Christopher West that addressed this. I am included in the category of people who made mistakes. However, some are full of guilt or shame and will not let Christ into their hearts and seek support at Church. It is understandable due to the pain for them to avoid Mass at all possible. However, it is a condition just as addition to drugs, mental disorders, and cancer are conditions where it is easier to hide but much much better to seek help.