Will an economic stimulus package help us during recession?

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And unions are a good way to:
  1. Not provide children an education (see NEA.)
  2. Produce sub-standard goods at an exhorbitant price.
When it comes to the public schools, the NEA IS management. Anyone who has campaigned for school board knows you have to have the endorsement of the applicable teacher’s union, whether by being a toady, a true believer or by fooling them, to win, unless you have independent political power in your district. Even then, it’s tough.

The irony is that the teachers’ unions betray their members. Union dues are per capita, not based on salary. So, instead of expending its efforts in upgrading faculty and winning salaries based on qualifications and merit, their efforts are expended in building and maintaining numbers. Numbers also mean votes in school board elections; a lot of votes when you consider family members and friends. Obviously, given a particular budget, you can have more members if each member is paid less, and fewer if each member is paid more. Further, if student interest is low, teacher motivation is low and discipline is poor, it takes more aides and security people, more “special programs” and a lower pupil-teacher ratio, all of which builds the numbers of low paid members. It’s a complete betrayal. Some teachers will tell you that in private, but they won’t say it in public.
 
When it comes to the public schools, the NEA IS management. Anyone who has campaigned for school board knows you have to have the endorsement of the applicable teacher’s union, whether by being a toady, a true believer or by fooling them, to win, unless you have independent political power in your district. Even then, it’s tough.

The irony is that the teachers’ unions betray their members. Union dues are per capita, not based on salary. So, instead of expending its efforts in upgrading faculty and winning salaries based on qualifications and merit, their efforts are expended in building and maintaining numbers. Numbers also mean votes in school board elections; a lot of votes when you consider family members and friends. Obviously, given a particular budget, you can have more members if each member is paid less, and fewer if each member is paid more. Further, if student interest is low, teacher motivation is low and discipline is poor, it takes more aides and security people, more “special programs” and a lower pupil-teacher ratio, all of which builds the numbers of low paid members. It’s a complete betrayal. Some teachers will tell you that in private, but they won’t say it in public.
Oh, yes. The true mission of the Public School System is no longer to educate the children, but rather to support the union.

Currently, some 29% of children who enter high school do not graduate. Can you imagine any other business surviving with a 29% failure rate?

And that doesn’t even count the kids who graduate unable to read and write!
 
Permanently lowering taxes would be even better – since it would signal the government is serious about the economy.

That should be followed up by a Line Item Veto Amendment, so future presidents can veto the pork that lards so many bills that have to pass.

We might even consider a Balanced Budget Amendment.
This is my opinion also. 👍 There is a nice little Catholic Goods store for sale near us. But, I would not even consider it till I know that the tax levies will remain as they are or go lower. Some of the small business owners I know also are holding back till they see if the tax rates return to the pre “cut” rates. This is a big factor in the downturn that we are seeing right now IMHO.

The Line Item Veto would be a good starting place for a balanced budget and to hold spending to the necessities.
 
This is my opinion also. 👍 There is a nice little Catholic Goods store for sale near us. But, I would not even consider it till I know that the tax levies will remain as they are or go lower. Some of the small business owners I know also are holding back till they see if the tax rates return to the pre “cut” rates. This is a big factor in the downturn that we are seeing right now IMHO.

The Line Item Veto would be a good starting place for a balanced budget and to hold spending to the necessities.
Wouldn’t it be great if our politicians were as devoted to the country as those 19-year old kids serving in Iraq and Afghanistan?
 
Income tax is one of many methods to fund a government. In Texas we have no income tax so we fund the government through property taxes. Example One brother has a $200,000 house and a family income of $60,000 his tax is $5,000 on the property and zero on the income. His Oklahoma brother has a $200,000 house and a family income of $60,000 his tax is $200 on the property and $4,800 on the income.
There are property taxes here in Florida, and in PA. I am sorry–I don’t follow.:o I was taxed 1% on my income–each year. It didn’t bother me, it was small, but it seemed…um…what’s the word…unnecessary to me.🤷
 
And unions are a good way to:
  1. Not provide children an education (see NEA.)
  2. Produce sub-standard goods at an exhorbitant price.
And the right of working people to unionize is recognized by the Church and under the law…or is that one of those prudential things we can ignore if it runs contrary to one’s secular political ideology?
 
There are property taxes here in Florida, and in PA. I am sorry–I don’t follow.:o I was taxed 1% on my income–each year. It didn’t bother me, it was small, but it seemed…um…what’s the word…unnecessary to me.🤷
Your state will collect about 17% of all income in the state(tax) Your federal government will collect another 20%. Combined 37% of all the US income is collected by the combined governments. So most of this is collected through

Personal Income Tax
Company income Tax
Sales Tax
Fees​

sum = ~17%

So some states choose to use mostly personal income and sales taxes to achieive their 17%, that method taxes workers heavily. Others tax property and sales tax heavy to reach 17%, that is heavier on land owners as business.

hope that helps

government reciepts 4,000 billion
(bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=84&FirstYear=1999&LastYear=2010&Freq=Qtr&Java=Y#mid

Total GDP 11,319 billion
http://www.bea.gov/national/xls/gdplev.xls


State collections 1,893
bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp#Mid
 
And the right of working people to unionize is recognized by the Church and under the law…or is that one of those prudential things we can ignore if it runs contrary to one’s secular political ideology?
I’m sure the Church recognizes the right of people to make bank withdrawals – but not with a gun.😃

Forced union membership – where you have to join to get or hold a job, and pay a forced kickback – is not quite what the Church advocates.
 
And the right of working people to unionize is recognized by the Church and under the law…or is that one of those prudential things we can ignore if it runs contrary to one’s secular political ideology?
A needlessly provocative statement, it seems to me.
While the right to organize is not a moral “absolute” in the same sense the right to life is, the Papal endorsements of it are of strong moral suasion which we ignore at the peril of our souls. I’m not sure how many people actually think unions should not exist at all. I doubt it’s very many. But most people are aware that union activities can impinge on the rights of others as well as those of their own members. Can anybody really endorse organized criminal domination of any of them? As a purely economic issue, unions are neither good nor bad in themselves, as corporations are neither good nor bad in themselves. Either can be beneficial in an economy, depending on how they are used. One could argue, reasonably in my judgment, that in the case of the U.S. auto industry, both the unions and the corporations share the blame for the decline of both the companies and the welfare of the workers. Both, it seems, grew complacent during a period in which they had no real competition, with terrible results.

Returning to the topic, no economic stimulus package is going to cause Americans to buy Chevrolet instead of Toyota if they perceive that Toyota makes a better vehicle. Indeed, Toyota manufactures cars here, with American labor, as does BMW and Mercedes. Unfortunately, while the recession will eventually purge the excesses of Wall Street, the banking and real estate worlds, it will do nothing to purge the consequences of decades of poor decisions by both labor and management in Detroit.

In my town is a manufacturer that relocated because it found it impossible to compete with Canadian competitors (not Chinese) in a state whose pro-union posture and consequent union obstinance made it terribly difficult to operate. It wasn’t so much a matter of wages as it was of work rules that padded the labor force and made it almost impossible to fire anyone. So, a lot of good union jobs disappeared in the other state. But, my state gained a lot of good non-union manufacturing jobs, and people are happy to have them. Mine is not a “right to work” state, but it is a “terminate at will” state. If you want to keep your job, you have to do your job. The company keeps track of production segment product, and if the buyer rightly rejects it, responsibility goes right back to the workers who produced it and management members who approved it for shipment. Consequently, the quality level is very high. Despite the threat this potentially poses, and the hard work it requires, union attempts to organize the plant are always soundly defeated by the rank-and-file. And, in addition to shipping product to U.S. buyers, they now ship a lot of stuff into Canada and overseas. It’s excellent stuff, and, while I won’t say what it is, I can tell you that most of us see its product every single day.

So, it could be said perhaps, that unions have benefitted both the company and the labor force in this instance; not by being there, but by posing a threat to both by illustrating how union excesses and management oppression that often gives rise to them, can make both act in a manner more balanced than they might otherwise act.

On the other hand, there is a company of which I am aware, that has a happy relationship with its union. The main function of the union seems to be vetting the legal status of its members. (It does other things, principally in service to workers, but not much else.) Possibly it does so by loose compliance with the overly-restrictive anti-discrimination laws that make it very difficult for employers to effectively investigate the legal status of applicants. You can’t tell from the composition of the workforce that there is actual discrimination involved, and I don’t think there is. So, thanks to the union, the company can be fairly sure it doesn’t have illegals on the factory floor. The workers at the plant are paid modestly more than are workers in similar non-union plants that have to deal with the “Catch-22” of laws against hiring illegals vs anti-discrimination laws that make it tough to avoid doing it. That’s a small and limited example of the symbiotic relationship that can, and ought to, exist between unions and management.
 
Returning to the topic, no economic stimulus package is going to cause Americans to buy Chevrolet instead of Toyota if they perceive that Toyota makes a better vehicle. Indeed, Toyota manufactures cars here, with American labor, as does BMW and Mercedes. Unfortunately, while the recession will eventually purge the excesses of Wall Street, the banking and real estate worlds, it will do nothing to purge the consequences of decades of poor decisions by both labor and management in Detroit.
Well said. In many cases, unions and management have joined in a conspiracy against the consumer.

When we look at education, we see high costs and low performance – again, in an industry dominated by a union.
 
Well said. In many cases, unions and management have joined in a conspiracy against the consumer.

When we look at education, we see high costs and low performance – again, in an industry dominated by a union.
As I said before, in the case of the teachers’ unions, the unions ARE management. They elect the school boards, who select the administrators. Then comes the betrayal when, instead of working to reward and enforce excellence, the unions opt for increasing the numbers and forcing “cultural change” on the country.
 
A needlessly provocative statement, it seems to me.
It would seem so, but it also seems that whatever the Church says that runs contrary to Republican ideology is deemed by many to be “prudential” meaning “we can ignore it if we want to.”
While the right to organize is not a moral “absolute” in the same sense the right to life is, the Papal endorsements of it are of strong moral suasion which we ignore at the peril of our souls.
Glad to see that you aren’t one of those people. 🙂
I’m not sure how many people actually think unions should not exist at all. I doubt it’s very many.
You’d be surprised.
But most people are aware that union activities can impinge on the rights of others as well as those of their own members. Can anybody really endorse organized criminal domination of any of them?
Of course not. Yes, some union activities do impinge on the rights of others…usually management that is not dealing in good faith with the union representing the employees.

And where the union engages in political activity above and beyond the rights of their workers, that’s a problem, too. Of course, that a Union would endorse a Democrat over a Republican most of the time requires no knowledge in rocket science…the Republican party is ardently anti-labor. Labor unions do exist to advocate for working people, not on issues that would be considered “side issues” relative to labor issues. Which is why it is unfortunate when a union takes up causes (like “GLBT” issues or womens’ issues) that have nothing to do with labor.
As a purely economic issue, unions are neither good nor bad in themselves, as corporations are neither good nor bad in themselves. Either can be beneficial in an economy, depending on how they are used.
Granted as fact. I have no problem with corporations or unions. I just don’t want either to be too big or too powerful. I do want them to be at LEAST equal, if not a little advantage to labor, as they are supposed to represent the interests of people while corporations represent the interest of capital. Break up the megacorps and restore unions to local control.
One could argue, reasonably in my judgment, that in the case of the U.S. auto industry, both the unions and the corporations share the blame for the decline of both the companies and the welfare of the workers. Both, it seems, grew complacent during a period in which they had no real competition, with terrible results.
That’s called the law of unintended consequences.
Returning to the topic, no economic stimulus package is going to cause Americans to buy Chevrolet instead of Toyota if they perceive that Toyota makes a better vehicle.
Indeed. Many people are unwilling to look at American cars because of the bad history. I used to say that I’d never by a Ford but I am the proud owner of a Focus which I think is a great little car (exccept you can’t put a tv in the trunk (just bought a new TV and need to take the old one to be disposed of properly).

<<SNIPPITY DOO DAH!>> 🙂
 
To say the Church upholds the rights of employees to form unions is one thing. To say the Church advocates the type of criminal conspiracy that calls itself a “union” is another thing entirely.

The Church does not endorse hi-jacking newspaper delivery trucks, and bankrupting the private contractors who delivered newspapers in Detroit. The Church does not endorse putting pipe bombs in newspaper vending machines (as happened during the Detroit Newspaper Strike.) The Church does not endorse putting “star nails” in the parking lots of stores that advertised in those papers.

And the Church does not endorse running a strike past the point where the employees can recover economically, even if all their demands are met.
 
It would seem so, but it also seems that whatever the Church says that runs contrary to Republican ideology is deemed by many to be “prudential” meaning “we can ignore it if we want to.”
🙂
I dont know of anything that the Church says that runs contrary to republican ideology. Of course with the Demcorat Party they are on the wrong side of nearly all issues the Church holds dear.
 
To say the Church upholds the rights of employees to form unions is one thing. To say the Church advocates the type of criminal conspiracy that calls itself a “union” is another thing entirely.

The Church does not endorse hi-jacking newspaper delivery trucks, and bankrupting the private contractors who delivered newspapers in Detroit. The Church does not endorse putting pipe bombs in newspaper vending machines (as happened during the Detroit Newspaper Strike.) The Church does not endorse putting “star nails” in the parking lots of stores that advertised in those papers.
True. The Church has always taught that it is never acceptable to do an evil act even if the end is good.
And the Church does not endorse running a strike past the point where the employees can recover economically, even if all their demands are met.
Also true, but is management sometimes also responsible for that? If I recall correctly, the last big strike outside the movie industry here in southern California was a strike-lockout (grocery stores).

Let’s look at what the Church says in the Catechism:
2435 Recourse to a strike/] is morally legitimate when it cannot be avoided, or at least when it is necessary to obtain a proportionate benefit. It becomes morally unacceptable when accompanied by violence, or when objectives are included that are not directly linked to working conditions or are contrary to the common good.
It would seem to agree with you and on this, so do I. GASP! Drops to floor unconscious 😉
 
It would seem so, but it also seems that whatever the Church says that runs contrary to Republican ideology is deemed by many to be “prudential” meaning "we can ignore it if we want to."And sometimes Democrats try to claim things are “prudential”, e.g., abortion, when they’re not.

I do want them to be at LEAST equal, if not a little advantage to labor, as they are supposed to represent the interests of people while corporations represent the interest of capital. Break up the megacorps and restore unions to local control.

<<SNIPPITY DOO DAH!>> 🙂
To some degree, labor, management and capital are always in an adversarial position. But it’s almost impossible to separate their interests completely. For example, what’s in those 401K plans? Corporate and government debt instruments and stocks…capital. What’s behind life insurance policies…capital.

What so often seems to be missing is the symbiosis that is also so terribly lacking in the political process nowadays. Back when I was a Democrat activist, there really was a symbiosis between the parties a good part of the time. Now there is nothing but “scorched earth” policies. Neither party wants to cooperate with the other even when they share common goals. I might be overstating it, but I really do think it’s all because of abortion politics. That’s when the Dem party ran off and left me; not just on abortion (though that was sufficient of itself) but in a leftward lurch its abortion supporters also espoused, that enhanced its “exclusivism” that could not tolerate compromise or moderation. On the other hand, Repubs often seem to think that everything every Republican says has to be right, no matter how perverse, because he/she opposes abortion, and everything every Dem says is automatically wrong because he/she supports it. It has poisoned the political well in America.

Returning to unions, though, it does seem to me that symbiotic relationships are possible, and might be more common that I, for one, know. The union I mentioned at the end of my last post seems to be almost a social work agency in some respects, which I suspect does a better job than government does, and does it in cooperation with management. A small example. The union has its preferred workers compensation lawyers. When one of them calls either the adjuster or defense counsel, they almost always reach agreement immediately because the “union lawyers” have fee limitations that don’t reward overreaching, and they always try to hit “the judge’s average” award for the injury as fast as possible, because speed of resolution by the lawyer IS rewarded. So, then, does the adjuster or defense counsel, and the company doesn’t mind adding a bit, because it reduces the cost of litigation. The worker gets his/her benefits without quibble, it costs the worker and the company less, and cases get resolved quickly. Now, that’s a tacit “labor/management conspiracy” that actually helps both achieve a “win-win”.

At the margins, undue oppression by management leads to workforce attrition or hostile unionization, while overreaching by unions leads to loss of jobs.
 
True. The Church has always taught that it is never acceptable to do an evil act even if the end is good.

Also true, but is management sometimes also responsible for that? If I recall correctly, the last big strike outside the movie industry here in southern California was a strike-lockout (grocery stores).

Let’s look at what the Church says in the Catechism:

It would seem to agree with you and on this, so do I. GASP! Drops to floor unconscious 😉
You see? Read what I say, don’t read into what I say, and you’ll be amazed at how much we agree.😃
 
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