Will Benedict XVI ever celebrate the Extraordinary Form?

[cothrige]

I have noticed lately, as there have been many Papal Masses on TV what with major Holy Days and the US trip, that all of the Holy Father’s Masses have been celebrated using the Ordinary Form. I know that the Holy Father has pressed strongly that the Church is continuous with the past and that the old Latin Mass was always valid. But, wouldn’t celebrating just once using that form say this more strongly than anything else would?

So, I am wondering what the people at this forum think about this? Is he likely to ever use the old Missal in a way known to people, perhaps even at a time when it will be seen on TV or the like? And how much impact, in the end, do you think this would be likely to really have on things? Just curious.

Patrick

 

[deigloriam]

There have been rumors that this is going to happen, but nothing yet. I would be surprised if the Holy Father doesn’t offer the TLM publicly in the next year or so. At a Youth event, or on the anniversary of Summorum Pontificum would seem fitting.

 

[palmas85]

I have noticed lately, as there have been many Papal Masses on TV what with major Holy Days and the US trip, that all of the Holy Father’s Masses have been celebrated using the Ordinary Form. I know that the Holy Father has pressed strongly that the Church is continuous with the past and that the old Latin Mass was always valid. But, wouldn’t celebrating just once using that form say this more strongly than anything else would?

So, I am wondering what the people at this forum think about this? Is he likely to ever use the old Missal in a way known to people, perhaps even at a time when it will be seen on TV or the like? And how much impact, in the end, do you think this would be likely to really have on things? Just curious.

Patrick

I would personally doubt it. While it would send a good signal it would also terrify, mortify and deeply anger those who hate the Traditional Mass, of which there is a sizeable group. I don’t think the Holy Father wants to do that. Why is pretty obvious. Just read some of the threads on this very forum and think what would be said if he even hinted that he would celebrate such a Mass… The outcry, moans wailing and gnashing of teeth would be unsurpassed, and that only from his Bishops and fellow Clergy, not taking into account what the laity would do.

Hey we can always hope, but I think that the Holy Father is just not going to risk angering all those who are so vehemently opposed to it.

 

[EasterJoy]

I would personally doubt it. While it would send a good signal it would also terrify, mortify and deeply anger those who hate the Traditional Mass, of which there is a sizeable group. I don’t think the Holy Father wants to do that. Why is pretty obvious. Just read some of the threads on this very forum and think what would be said if he even hinted that he would celebrate such a Mass… The outcry, moans wailing and gnashing of teeth would be unsurpassed, and that only from his Bishops and fellow Clergy, not taking into account what the laity would do.

Hey we can always hope, but I think that the Holy Father is just not going to risk angering all those who are so vehemently opposed to it.

You know, the Vatican seems to be a lot less concerned about what causes moaning and gnashing of teeth than about doing what’s pastorally called for.

I would not be surprised if he sticks to the OF for major feast days, because that is the form that most Catholics know and celebrate regularly. I would not be at all surprised if he celebrated the EF publicly at some point.

The feast of St. Jerome or the feast of St.Gregory the Great might be nice choices for papal celebrations of the EF at the Vatican. If the 1st Sunday of Easter were celebrated with the OF, the 2nd Sunday, which closes the octave of Easter, would be a nice day for celebration of the EF, too. If someone gets their nose bent out of shape about that, maybe they are in real need of a teaching moment. There is nothing terrifying about the EF.

 

[ProVobis]

I would personally doubt it. While it would send a good signal it would also terrify, mortify and deeply anger those who hate the Traditional Mass, of which there is a sizeable group. I don’t think the Holy Father wants to do that. Why is pretty obvious. Just read some of the threads on this very forum and think what would be said if he even hinted that he would celebrate such a Mass… The outcry, moans wailing and gnashing of teeth would be unsurpassed, and that only from his Bishops and fellow Clergy, not taking into account what the laity would do.

Hey we can always hope, but I think that the Holy Father is just not going to risk angering all those who are so vehemently opposed to it.

That’s the sad truth. I thought my stepmother was going to throw up when I showed her part of the Latin Mass on youtube. (I had to switch to one of ABBA’s hits before she regained her composure.) I think we should be happy just to hear the Pope say a Latin prayer.

 

[palmas85]

You know, the Vatican seems to be a lot less concerned about what causes moaning and gnashing of teeth than about doing what’s pastorally called for.

I would not be surprised if he sticks to the OF for major feast days, because that is the form that most Catholics know and celebrate regularly. I would not be at all surprised if he celebrated the EF publicly at some point.

The feast of St. Jerome or the feast of St.Gregory the Great might be nice choices for papal celebrations of the EF at the Vatican. If the 1st Sunday of Easter were celebrated with the OF, the 2nd Sunday, which closes the octave of Easter, would be a nice day for celebration of the EF, too.** If someone gets their nose bent out of shape about that, maybe they are in real need of a teaching moment. There is nothing terrifying about the EF.**

To many of us no. To others on this forum the Traditional Mass is quite possibly the worst thing imaginable. It is an abomination that should have been buried after Vatican II. Don’t take my word for it though. Look through the threads. Read what not a small number of Bishops have said about it. Look at the fact that even after the Holy Father loosened the restrictions, what happened? More than a few Bishops came up with new guidelines for the implementation of the traditional Mass in their Diocese, when it was to be freely available to all.

As to the Vatican not being concerned with the moaning and gnashing of teeth and more concerned with what is pastorally called for, I wish that were true. But this is the real world and I’m not naive.

We’ll wait and see, but I don’t think we’ll be seeing the Holy Father celebrate a Traditional Mass anytime soon and more than likely never, unless something truly monumental happens.

 

[EasterJoy]

To many of us no. To others on this forum the Traditional Mass is quite possibly the worst thing imaginable…We’ll wait and see, but I don’t think we’ll be seeing the Holy Father celebrate a Traditional Mass anytime soon and more than likely never, unless something truly monumental happens.

The Pope has had a lot of good to say about the EF recently. It should not blind-side anyone if he were to celebrate the simple truth that it is a marvelous treasure of the Church, even if it is not our ordinary treasure. And how do I say this?..Pope Benedict XVI very often does what he thinks is right over what would cause the least political trouble for him. I have the sense that he’d like to be counted as a friend of the EF.

This is coming from somebody who doesn’t think every parish needs or wants a regular celebration of the EF.

I don’t think he’ll use it for one of the major feast days, like Easter or Christmas, or for a Mass during a pastoral visit outside the Vatican. Nevertheless, Latin is the official language of the Holy See, even if it is not the official language of the Vatican. I think the possibility of setting aside a day for the EF at the Vatican itself is quite real.

 

[Strevel]

I have noticed lately, as there have been many Papal Masses on TV what with major Holy Days and the US trip, that all of the Holy Father’s Masses have been celebrated using the Ordinary Form. I know that the Holy Father has pressed strongly that the Church is continuous with the past and that the old Latin Mass was always valid. But, wouldn’t celebrating just once using that form say this more strongly than anything else would?

So, I am wondering what the people at this forum think about this? Is he likely to ever use the old Missal in a way known to people, perhaps even at a time when it will be seen on TV or the like? And how much impact, in the end, do you think this would be likely to really have on things? Just curious.

Patrick

The traditional Mass (Latin) is art in its highest form. Even tho I do not understand t I tear up due to feeling a stronger communion with the people that used it daily, studied in it, gave it life and gave it to us. All the Doctors of the Church wrote in Latin.
There is a bit of a problem, IMHO of course. If the Holy Father were to say Mass in Latin which he probobly knows verbatim (subtle joke there) it could cause issues by ignighting old fires. You must know a bit about our faith and history to understand what I am sharing. The people that love it that would die for the Church and Christ would feel empowered…not so bad. The generation that has been taught thru non verbl communication to look strange at people that bring a Rosary and, gawd, a Prayer book, would would say, “duh, what is the guy saying” and get up to mess with the volume on the TV. (yes, I am a conservative convert to our Holy faith, was a Mormon…damn,now I have to go clean my mouth out for saying the “M” word"
We have a generation that view our faith like a grocery store, that pick and choose, and find fault. The Latin Mass people are stronget than a lazer bean through a glass window. They believe in Transubstantiation firmly and know it is true. The moderates will be moved to the side as the conservatives form a procession, and walk down the avenue with large statue of Jesus Christ and the +Virgiin in front…singing Hail Holy Queen …in Latin, mind you. With them you lead, follow AND get out of the way. I attended Latin Mass in Phoenix for a few months. The Church was full, almost a fire code violation. All ladies wore head scarves and all the men had long sleeve shirts on, no shorts, spag straps, etc… People were hanging on the walls, the door was held open by people going to confession and everyone kneeled at the railing for the host, hands under a white cloth.
Now, we have a group of people that are…well, inconvienced by confession. Some have never seen a confessional in their church. And there is another that referenced Joan of Arc and St. Laurence the Deacon encouraging their kids to use them as role modles. Everyone knew what to do when the bell rang at 7:59am for 800 Mass. No one sat there a second. Out of love and respect everyone stood up up.
Tell me, in a contest, who will win? We all know, don’t we.
Go to google and search for Tridentne Mass, watch it and see what a generation does not know. We have become fat and lazy…IMHO, of curse, I ment course, I swear I did! .e my Church and congratulate you for the same.
I am a convert, I lov

 

[palmas85]

The Pope has had a lot of good to say about the EF recently. It should not blind-side anyone if he were to celebrate the simple truth that it is a marvelous treasure of the Church, even if it is not our ordinary treasure. And how do I say this?..Pope Benedict XVI very often does what he thinks is right over what would cause the least political trouble for him. I have the sense that he’d like to be counted as a friend of the EF.

This is coming from somebody who doesn’t think every parish needs or wants a regular celebration of the EF.

I don’t think he’ll use it for one of the major feast days, like Easter or Christmas, or for a Mass during a pastoral visit outside the Vatican. Nevertheless, Latin is the official language of the Holy See, even if it is not the official language of the Vatican. I think the possibility of setting aside a day for the EF at the Vatican itself is quite real.

Like I said, we’ll wait and see. I just don’t think its going to happen.

 

[EasterJoy]

Like I said, we’ll wait and see. I just don’t think its going to happen.

Yes, we’ll just have to wait and see.

 

[cothrige]

I would personally doubt it. While it would send a good signal it would also terrify, mortify and deeply anger those who hate the Traditional Mass, of which there is a sizeable group. I don’t think the Holy Father wants to do that. Why is pretty obvious. Just read some of the threads on this very forum and think what would be said if he even hinted that he would celebrate such a Mass… The outcry, moans wailing and gnashing of teeth would be unsurpassed, and that only from his Bishops and fellow Clergy, not taking into account what the laity would do.

Well, that certainly does make sense, though it is unfortunate. For one thing it would mean that many have been all too right about insisting that the Church should be democratic since in fact that is effectively what would be happening. I also fear that without some type of gesture from the Holy Father the EF will never be seen as either really free or even fully legitimate. And though, living in Florida, I have never had the opportunity to even attend such a Mass, I still have to think that would seem wrong.

I wonder if perhaps, as a compromise of sorts, the Pope may one day say such a Mass privately or on a very small scale somewhere? Even that I would think could have a large impact on people.

Patrick

 

[DonaNobis_Pacem]

Perhaps the Holy Father will celebrate a Mass using the Extraordinary Form, perhaps he won’t. It’s his prerogative. We can speculate all we want, but we do not know if or when it will happen. In my own humble opinion, should he celebrate the Extraordinary Form, I don’t think that he would do it to “prove” anything about this form of the Mass other than that it is one of the treasured uses of the Roman Rite and is certainly a valid one.

The issuing of the Motu Proprio, which has lifted the restrictions on the Latin Mass (which is now the Extraordinary Form, while the Pauline Mass is currently the Ordinary Form), is how Pope Benedict XVI is trying to heal divisions within the Church that have existed between Catholics who prefer the pre-VII Mass and Catholics who prefer the post-VII Mass. He is aiming for reconciliation among the faithful by allowing the Tridentine Mass to be more available to those who desire it, while at the same time allowing the Pauline Mass to remain in use. I don’t believe His Holiness would desire to “terrify, mortify, and deeply anger” those who do not prefer the Latin Mass if he were to use this particular form at some point.

On the other hand, we, the laity, are the ones who continue to divide the Body of Christ with bickering among ourselves over which form of the Mass is “superior”. It would behoove us all to stop and think carefully about what we say to one another when we post here, considering whether we are speaking/admonishing with true charity and not crossing the line into calumny and slander.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Any answer you get to this question will only be someone giving a response based on his or her feelings, etc., with no actual knowledge to back up the answer. The bottom line is that he will if he wants to.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[cothrige]

The issuing of the Motu Proprio, which has lifted the restrictions on the Latin Mass (which is now the Extraordinary Form, while the Pauline Mass is currently the Ordinary Form), is how Pope Benedict XVI is trying to heal divisions within the Church that have existed between Catholics who prefer the pre-VII Mass and Catholics who prefer the post-VII Mass. He is aiming for reconciliation among the faithful by allowing the Tridentine Mass to be more available to those who desire it, while at the same time allowing the Pauline Mass to remain in use. I don’t believe His Holiness would desire to “terrify, mortify, and deeply anger” those who do not prefer the Latin Mass if he were to use this particular form at some point.

If I may, I think the above is really very speculative, and doesn’t seem backed up by what others around the Holy Father have said. It has sounded to me, from the very beginning, that the Pope has sought to reinforce the reality that the Church is continuous with her past, and there was no break after the last Council. Continuity seems to be at least an important concern of his in this, and I don’t think we can fairly suggest that he is only trying to placate certain groups.

And am I the only person really troubled by the suggestion that a valid and licit Mass could “terrify, mortify and deeply anger” Catholics? If clown Masses, Barney Masses or any of the other types of things haven’t terrified people, how can a legitimate Mass celebrated according to the proper rubrics be a cause of anger? I find the very suggesting a bit troubling.

On the other hand, we, the laity, are the ones who continue to divide the Body of Christ with bickering among ourselves over which form of the Mass is “superior”. It would behoove us all to stop and think carefully about what we say to one another when we post here, considering whether we are speaking/admonishing with true charity and not crossing the line into calumny and slander.

Did I miss an offensive remark on this thread? Who suggested anything was superior? I did wonder if many in the Church would ever see both forms as equal if the Holy Father never actually celebrated according to both, but I don’t think that suggests any kind of superiority. Nor have I seen anything from anybody else like that.

Patrick

 

[KestrelRose]

This is my thoughts also. We need to heal the wounds and work for peace.

Perhaps the Holy Father will celebrate a Mass using the Extraordinary Form, perhaps he won’t. It’s his prerogative. We can speculate all we want, but we do not know if or when it will happen. In my own humble opinion, should he celebrate the Extraordinary Form, I don’t think that he would do it to “prove” anything about this form of the Mass other than that it is one of the treasured uses of the Roman Rite and is certainly a valid one.

The issuing of the Motu Proprio, which has lifted the restrictions on the Latin Mass (which is now the Extraordinary Form, while the Pauline Mass is currently the Ordinary Form), is how Pope Benedict XVI is trying to heal divisions within the Church that have existed between Catholics who prefer the pre-VII Mass and Catholics who prefer the post-VII Mass. He is aiming for reconciliation among the faithful by allowing the Tridentine Mass to be more available to those who desire it, while at the same time allowing the Pauline Mass to remain in use. I don’t believe His Holiness would desire to “terrify, mortify, and deeply anger” those who do not prefer the Latin Mass if he were to use this particular form at some point.

On the other hand, we, the laity, are the ones who continue to divide the Body of Christ with bickering among ourselves over which form of the Mass is “superior”. It would behoove us all to stop and think carefully about what we say to one another when we post here, considering whether we are speaking/admonishing with true charity and not crossing the line into calumny and slander.

 

[ethelzguy]

I truly don’t understand the obsession with the Mass form. It has been beaten to pieces and we still are where we are.

Most parishes use the NO/OF in the vernacular, while some have the TLM/EF available.

It seems ludicrous to me, that there would be people watching every Mass said by the Pope as if it were a “statement” on the validy or preference of Mass type or form.

C’mon folks, your life of faith is passing you by while you obsess over something that isn’t going to matter come Judgement Day.

 

[cothrige]

It seems ludicrous to me, that there would be people watching every Mass said by the Pope as if it were a “statement” on the validy or preference of Mass type or form.

I do hope to see something from the Pope regarding an EF Mass, but because I believe it will strengthen the faith among his flock. We clearly live in a time when many people see the Latin Mass as a threat or a break with Vatican II. This is because of a failed understanding of the Council and a perception of a break with the past in this regard. The Holy Father is teaching that there is no break and this can only mean that it is bad for Catholics to think that there is. I think a Papal Mass using the Extraordinary Form would help make that clear. For me it certainly is not an issue about “preference.”

Patrick

 

[DonaNobis_Pacem]

If I may, I think the above is really very speculative, and doesn’t seem backed up by what others around the Holy Father have said. It has sounded to me, from the very beginning, that the Pope has sought to reinforce the reality that the Church is continuous with her past, and there was no break after the last Council. Continuity seems to be at least an important concern of his in this, and I don’t think we can fairly suggest that he is only trying to placate certain groups.

You’re right, I stand corrected on that point. But the universal allowance of the Latin Mass use, if you notice what I’ve written, is what shows that Holy Mother Church is continuous with her past. It isn’t a mere placating of those who prefer the Extraordinary Form, but it’s showing that the Church has not forgotten her past entirely, and has allowed the two forms to exist side by side.

And am I the only person really troubled by the suggestion that a valid and licit Mass could “terrify, mortify and deeply anger” Catholics? If clown Masses, Barney Masses or any of the other types of things haven’t terrified people, how can a legitimate Mass celebrated according to the proper rubrics be a cause of anger? I find the very suggesting a bit troubling.

I believe it was palmas85 who suggested that the celebration of the Extraordinary Form by the Holy Father would “terrify, mortify, and deeply anger” those Catholics who supposedly “hate” the Latin Mass. I do not think that the motives of the pope would be such as these.

Did I miss an offensive remark on this thread? Who suggested anything was superior? I did wonder if many in the Church would ever see both forms as equal if the Holy Father never actually celebrated according to both, but I don’t think that suggests any kind of superiority. Nor have I seen anything from anybody else like that.

Patrick

Just because the Holy Father hasn’t celebrated the Extraordinary Form does not mean that the two forms are unequal. He himself chooses to say the Mass according to the Ordinary Form, but has proclaimed in the Motu Proprio that the faithful no longer need to seek the approval of the bishop of their diocese in order to have the Latin Mass celebrated. At least, if I remember it correctly…

I didn’t say that those things were posted on this thread in particular. However, I have seen such claims made about the forms of the Mass on other threads; I would respectfully appreciate that you do not take my post out of context.

 

[palmas85]

.

I believe it was palmas85 who suggested that the celebration of the Extraordinary Form by the Holy Father would “terrify, mortify, and deeply anger” those Catholics who supposedly “hate” the Latin Mass. I do not think that the motives of the pope would be such as these.

.

I don’t think he would celebrate a Mass for any of those reasons either, but the result would be as I described for many. Hey we’ve had people on this forum come right out and say they would not have converted to the faith had the Mass still been in Latin. We’ve had posters refer to traditional priests as mindless mimes stumbling around the altar among other things and literally hundreds of posters telling us about the remarkable 5 minute speed Masses, mumbled consecrations how no one knew what was going on and could care less and how the only people who were sad as a result of the reforms were rosary makers because now people didn’t have to pray the rosary during Mass.

No there is a hatred for the traditional Mass out there. True burning hatred.

 

[cothrige]

You’re right, I stand corrected on that point. But the universal allowance of the Latin Mass use, if you notice what I’ve written, is what shows that Holy Mother Church is continuous with her past. It isn’t a mere placating of those who prefer the Extraordinary Form, but it’s showing that the Church has not forgotten her past entirely, and has allowed the two forms to exist side by side.

I still don’t think this was really about placating people in a preference, or just showing that the past isn’t forgotten. I think the current must be informed by the past in a real way if you hope to show real continuity with what came before. People have seen the new and old Mass at odds with each other. Just look at the people admitting that just one Mass by the Pope would terrify and anger people? Nobody here has argued that this is untrue. Doesn’t that say something to you about how people have viewed things? A great mass of people see two Churches, pre-VII and post. Real continuity cannot be seen in just tolerating what a few fringe groups do, but rather in embracing our own history and allowing it to inform what we do today. I think if the Holy Father said Mass in this form once, just once, it could do great things in that direction.

Just because the Holy Father hasn’t celebrated the Extraordinary Form does not mean that the two forms are unequal.

That is true, though it doesn’t mean that people in the pews understand that. Seeing the Pope use the form might go a long way to reconciling the two viewpoints, and showing that the Church is one and not divided. Wasn’t there a ruckus a while back regarding the FSSP and requiring that their priests celebrate using the new Mass at least upon certain occasions, as if it were not enough that they admit that the OF is valid, but that they had to actually use it too? If just admitting that the Masses were equal wasn’t enough then why should we not hope for something like this from the Holy Father now? I am not suggesting he must do it, or anything like that, but simply saying that it would say a great deal with clarity.

He himself chooses to say the Mass according to the Ordinary Form, but has proclaimed in the Motu Proprio that the faithful no longer need to seek the approval of the bishop of their diocese in order to have the Latin Mass celebrated. At least, if I remember it correctly…

That is how I have understood his intent, though as I understand things many people have suggested he didn’t really mean it that way.

I didn’t say that those things were posted on this thread in particular. However, I have seen such claims made about the forms of the Mass on other threads; I would respectfully appreciate that you do not take my post out of context.

I certainly hope I haven’t, though I may have. I also hope you won’t misread me. I am not a fanatic or anything, and go to the OF every week at my parish. I have no complaints about it. It has just seemed to me that you see this as people hoping to see their horse win because of personal preference. I see it as much, much more. I just don’t think the Holy Father would trouble things for that purpose, and a real visible continuity with the historic Church would mean a great deal to everyone. How can we all benefit from this opening up of the EF without seeing it on an equal standing in the highest places?

Patrick