Actually JW, I disagree. That verse is quite ambiguous. For instance, does “believe” mean a one-time belief or is it something we must do for a life-time? Does belief entail action, repentance, or anything else? Or does belief refer to a mere intellectual assent alone? In light of the other Scriptures, and the teaching authority of the Church, I can come to a solid understanding of Scriptures such as this. However, the verse you cited leaves the questioning mind with many…well, questions.I didn’t say I was an interpreter of the Bible but there are many statements made in the Bible that are pretty direct.If for example the Bible says “Whoesoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life”.Is that hard to understand?Do I need an interpreter for that?I think not.If so,who does the interpreter get his interpretation from?If this is the case you obviously cannot even read the Bible on your own because it would be a wast of time .
The Church does not “decide who can go.” The Church determines through a difficult an exhaustive process whether someone has actually made it. Our older brothers and sisters in Christ are wonderful examples of life in Him. The recognition of their sanctity makes it possible for public recognition of their special place in the fellowship of the faithful.If only the saint-ed are going to heaven is the Vatican not deciding Mother Theresa is in heaven by saint-ing her?How do they know she’s gone to heaven or do they not know???Just wondering.Billy Graham,Pope John Paul,Mother Theresa and whoever else…God is the judge of their hearts.Not one man can say for certain who’s going and who’s not, period.
Catholics read the bible.So I guess you are never able to red the Bible on your own b/c it just contains to many metaphors and things that could be taken out of context?Hmmm but your teacher,priest,pastor has all the answers?Sounds strange to me.Sounds like the Church makes the rules.That’s a dangerous way to live if that’s the only way.
JWilson,So I guess you are never able to red the Bible on your own b/c it just contains to many metaphors and things that could be taken out of context?Hmmm but your teacher,priest,pastor has all the answers?Sounds strange to me.Sounds like the Church makes the rules.That’s a dangerous way to live if that’s the only way.
This has nothing to do with your questions, I just like letting people know a few facts:Assuming Billy Graham continues to profess his current beliefs without a conversion to the Catholic Faith, do you believe he will go to heaven?
I am looking for an apologetic argument for or against.
Thanks!
Yes i think you do need an interperter. Perhaps one who can teach you that you cant take one verse out of the Bible and come to very profound but very wrong conclusions like we are saved by faith alone.I didn’t say I was an interpreter of the Bible but there are many statements made in the Bible that are pretty direct.If for example the Bible says “Whoesoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life”.Is that hard to understand?Do I need an interpreter for that?I think not.If so,who does the interpreter get his interpretation from?If this is the case you obviously cannot even read the Bible on your own because it would be a wast of time .
Why would I want to read the Bible on my own? Why would I ignore 2,000 years of teachings by the Church Jesus himself founded? If I read the Bible on my own I run the very big risk of buying into false doctrines as you have. And beleive me that is a very, very dangerous way to live. In rejecting Christs Church you have rejected Christ.So I guess you are never able to red the Bible on your own b/c it just contains to many metaphors and things that could be taken out of context?Hmmm but your teacher,priest,pastor has all the answers?Sounds strange to me.Sounds like the Church makes the rules.That’s a dangerous way to live if that’s the only way.
Mercygate:If I’m voting on Billy, I say he’s in.
I hope this wasn’t an answer to my previous post. For starters, who said anything about “rules?” Secondly, do you not turn to the pastor of your church when you have confusion on a particular verse? Does he not help form you in what is “true Biblical theology?” Of course he does. Or at least he attempts to. We say something similar. Our Bishops are successors of the Apostles themselves. Thus, they carry the “preached Word of God” or “Apostolic Tradition” on with them through generation after generation. They understand the Word of God, with or without the written Word. Therefore, when they approach the Bible, they interpret passages in light of Apostolic teaching.So I guess you are never able to red the Bible on your own b/c it just contains to many metaphors and things that could be taken out of context?Hmmm but your teacher,priest,pastor has all the answers?Sounds strange to me.Sounds like the Church makes the rules.That’s a dangerous way to live if that’s the only way.
While it is true that the Catholic Church teaches this; you should specify that this requirement does not mean that one has to be a formal member of tha Cahtolic Chuch. Saying this without explination leaves it open to grave misinterpertation.Well, there is no salvation outside the Church.
How do you know it was faith alone that saved the criminal beside Jesus? How do you know the circumstances around his crime or what type of life he lead? Jesus looked at this man’s faith, his entire life, and into his heart and made the decision. I pray that when he does the same for me and for you the finding goes the same way.There was a murderer on a cross beside Jesus.He asked Jesus to take him where he was going.Jesus told him,“today you shall see paradise”.It was not the catholic ways that saved him but his faith alone.A guy who spent all his life in sin was saved in his dying last days.You think that because Billy hasn’t converted to catholisism that he hasn’t a chance of being saved?How naive.I believe Mother Theresa is saved simply by the love she showed others and her confessed faith in Christ.So she’s catholic.What difference does that make?
In some sense, that man’s faith did JUSTIFY him apart from anything he had previously done. Yet, salvation was attained by “grace alone,” contrary to what JW stated. Had the man not been on the cross, he would have received God’s infused grace through baptism just as the rest of the Christian community would do after Pentecost. This man was saved by extraordinary means. The ordinary means for being “born again” would surely applied had he not been nailed to a cross and unable to follow through with his profession of faith.How do you know it was faith alone that saved the criminal beside Jesus? How do you know the circumstances around his crime or what type of life he lead? Jesus looked at this man’s faith, his entire life, and into his heart and made the decision. I pray that when he does the same for me and for you the finding goes the same way.
Bingo! I get so tired of this being used by Protestants to say that baptism isn’t necessary or that works aren’t necessary (no, we don’t believe you can earn or work your way into Heaven, but faith without works is dead and inoperative, and you can and must obey your way into Heaven). The Good Thief cried out to Jesus and was saved (God never rejects the cry for mercy). What work did he have to do? Not falling into despair would probably take a bit of work. In the chronology, when the soldiers go to break the legs of the victims to hasten their death, Jesus is already dead, so His Legs don’t have to be broken. The others, contextually, MUST have still been alive. The Good Thief would have had to, by God’s Grace, not fall into despair, seeing that the One Who promised that he would be with Him in His Kingdom had already died. He did what was expected of HIM, in the working out of his salvation.In some sense, that man’s faith did JUSTIFY him apart from anything he had previously done. Yet, salvation was attained by “grace alone,” contrary to what JW stated. Had the man not been on the cross, he would have received God’s infused grace through baptism just as the rest of the Christian community would do after Pentecost. This man was saved by extraordinary means. The ordinary means for being “born again” would surely applied had he not been nailed to a cross and unable to follow through with his profession of faith.
I would suggest doing a little more research on what heresy is and entails. Is the heresy material or formal? Is it done in ignorance or is it freely willed? Were they catholics first who left? Read the sentence you bolded above. In order to return to catholic unity you must have been first part of that catholic unity.I read what Defide asked me to see off of the CA website, and it states:
"However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity."
We know out of fact that BIll Grahaham knew and understood what the Catholic Faith stands for… he has even spent time with many (hundreds I would gather) official Catholic Officials and Popes from around the world. In fact, he even has honory degrees from Catholic Colleges. He clearly is not ignorant. Does he most likely pass the above test?
Well, if your asking, I would ask him if was willing to put his hope in Christ and if there was water available, I would offer to baptize him. If he was unconscious and there was water available, I would simply baptize him conditionally.JKirk,
protestants don’t (or shouldn’t say) that you are saved without works and baptism.It is by faith you have been saved thru faith,it is not of your own doing but a free gift of God.The guy on the cross was aved by this.
If you were on your deathbed would you have time to do good works or get baptized?No you wouldn’t.The guy on the cross beside Jesus shows us that you can be saved as long as you have breathe.What would you tell a man who is dying and never acknowledged Jesus as his Lord?You’re not gonna make it to heaven buddy,you haven’t done anything good and you’re not baptized?Please explain what you would say to such a person?