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Nimzovik
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rogue13
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I think there are a number of bishops - the majority even - who were only half-hearted in their opposition to Obamacare and they do not want to go to such lengths as actually having to get their hands dirty in a fight with the Administration over the HHS mandate, which would mean getting rid of healthcare coverage for their employees and/or possibly having to lay people off.
So, I think those bishops will say, “Well, it is the law, so we’ll provide these things - contraception, abortifacients, sterilization - and we can morally do so because of the Principle of Double Effect. It is not our intent that these particular coverages be used by any of our employees, rather it is our intent to provide healthcare to our employees. If some of them use those particular services, that is an unintended negative consequence.”
Also, I think a lot of bishops know that if push came to shove, a significant % of so-called “Catholic” hospitals would tell their local ordinary to take a hike and offer the Obamacare coverage anyway, even if a courageous bishop drew a line in the sand and stood up to the mandate. In other words, the bishop would have to fight the Administration and his own Catholic hospitals.
I really don’t think a number of them realize that their credibility is already at an all-time low (as we can see from the % of Catholics voting for Obama), and that caving on Obamacare would cause it to plummet even further.
What will happen at this USCCB conference is that they will “try” to get a consensus on how to respond to Obamacare, but there will be enough of them who will be wishy-washy on the whole thing, and so no consensus will develop and it will leave a whole lot of bishops free to just quietly cave in and do nothing to prevent implementation of the HHS mandate come August 1.
I hope and pray I’m wrong, but I think there’s no more than 15-20 of the bishops, if that many, who are willing to fight this tooth and nail.
So, I think those bishops will say, “Well, it is the law, so we’ll provide these things - contraception, abortifacients, sterilization - and we can morally do so because of the Principle of Double Effect. It is not our intent that these particular coverages be used by any of our employees, rather it is our intent to provide healthcare to our employees. If some of them use those particular services, that is an unintended negative consequence.”
Also, I think a lot of bishops know that if push came to shove, a significant % of so-called “Catholic” hospitals would tell their local ordinary to take a hike and offer the Obamacare coverage anyway, even if a courageous bishop drew a line in the sand and stood up to the mandate. In other words, the bishop would have to fight the Administration and his own Catholic hospitals.
I really don’t think a number of them realize that their credibility is already at an all-time low (as we can see from the % of Catholics voting for Obama), and that caving on Obamacare would cause it to plummet even further.
What will happen at this USCCB conference is that they will “try” to get a consensus on how to respond to Obamacare, but there will be enough of them who will be wishy-washy on the whole thing, and so no consensus will develop and it will leave a whole lot of bishops free to just quietly cave in and do nothing to prevent implementation of the HHS mandate come August 1.
I hope and pray I’m wrong, but I think there’s no more than 15-20 of the bishops, if that many, who are willing to fight this tooth and nail.
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iloveangels
Guest
Not sure about this and doubt that you have this kind of information any more than anyone else. I do know that people normally consider the Principle of Double Effect to be a joke because Americans are practical and here every man is for himself, as they say. People don’t see a difference between justifying something and then doing it, and just doing it for the heck of it. That’s probably because Americans are huge anyway on spurious, even wacky justifications, and we all know that; even those who engage in them know that.I think there are a number of bishops - the majority even - who were only half-hearted in their opposition to Obamacare and they do not want to go to such lengths as actually having to get their hands dirty in a fight…
So, I think those bishops will say, “Well, it is the law, so we’ll provide these things - contraception, abortifacients, sterilization - and we can morally do so because of the Principle of Double Effect. It is not our intent that these particular coverages be used by any of our employees, rather it is our intent to provide healthcare to our employees. If some of them use those particular services, that is an unintended negative consequence.”
Many people, though, don’t quite realize the details of who owns what and who runs what and who pays for what. The fact of the matter is that dioceses own some things, most notably schools and outreaches for the poor and some social services counseling type things. Most universities and hospitals are really owned by complicated financial entities connected to religious orders, where the geriatric members of the religious orders don’t have to work in the universities & hospitals but get the benefits as retirement income. Most of these outfits are really run by lay boards, members of whom may or may not be Catholic. A lot of them will simply disassociate themselves from the Church when the time comes, I believe. The religious orders involved with them are not in the same line of authority as the dioceses and the dioceses can’t do anything about them anyway. In most cases, they are American religious congregations too, so they truly can do as they wish, and they will. Look the investigation of sisters in the US which was going on earlier this year for an example of how all this works. These religious congregations will go on their merry way, whatever that is and that has little or nothing to do with the diocese. These places may keep their names, and people will probably be fooled but they will no longer either be Catholic or any line of authority in the Catholic Church. The bishops simply cannot touch them.Also, I think a lot of bishops know that if push came to shove, a significant % of so-called “Catholic” hospitals would tell their local ordinary to take a hike and offer the Obamacare coverage anyway, even if a courageous bishop drew a line in the sand and stood up to the mandate. In other words, the bishop would have to fight the Administration and his own Catholic hospitals.
On the other hand, if the bishops don’t buckle, things run by dioceses and parishes are going to take a massive hit and they will either a) flat-out close, b) figure out how to run on volunteers or contract personnel, or) be sold or relinquished.
It is true that the credibility of the USCCB is at an all-time low. They’ve completely burned whatever political and social capital they might have had with Catholics and non-Catholics alike. They really don’t have much authority with many people, and if they cave, they will have ZIP authority, ZERO with pretty much everybody. They’ll have to look in the mirror to see someone paying real attention to anything they say.I really don’t think a number of bishops realize that their credibility is already at an all-time low (as we can see from the % of Catholics voting for Obama), and that caving on Obamacare would cause it to plummet even further. And crazily, yes, how they’re as oblivious to this as they are I have no idea.
That applies to Catholics in general, who have been shockingly oblivious to this whole thing. It’s like you just cannot get it into their heads that this is really happening. It’s been a sentence-by-sentence struggle to get this through some peoples’ heads. All the defense mechanisms and all the ultra-goofy things Catholics say are on in the way. There are millions of Catholics actively arguing against reality. This is going to be an enormous shock to some people when this takes effect whether the bishops really buckle or not. No matter what happens, I fully expect that there will be some number of Catholics that will still deny that it’s a problem. In fact, I’d expect that to be true even if it shuts down everything. Some people just cannot comprehend reality when it comes to these things.What will happen at this USCCB conference is that they will “try” to get a consensus on how to respond to Obamacare, but there will be enough of them who will be wishy-washy on the whole thing, and so no consensus will develop and it will leave a whole lot of bishops free to just quietly cave in and do nothing to prevent implementation of the HHS mandate come August 1.
I really have no idea what your credentials are, and unless you can give me some kind of proof, I simply don’t believe that you know this particular thing any better than I do.I hope and pray I’m wrong, but I think there’s no more than 15-20 of the bishops, if that many, who are willing to fight this tooth and nail.
I do think that the consequences either way of what they’re about to do are stunning, even cataclysmic to the Church in the US. I know that many of these men have never had to make a bigger decision than what hat to wear on any given day. But I don’t know what they’re going to do.
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Joe_5859
Guest
I think this is a hugely unfair assumption. Have you polled the bishops? Can you forsee the future?I think there are a number of bishops - the majority even - who were only half-hearted in their opposition to Obamacare and they do not want to go to such lengths as actually having to get their hands dirty in a fight with the Administration over the HHS mandate, which would mean getting rid of healthcare coverage for their employees and/or possibly having to lay people off.
So, I think those bishops will say, “Well, it is the law, so we’ll provide these things - contraception, abortifacients, sterilization - and we can morally do so because of the Principle of Double Effect. It is not our intent that these particular coverages be used by any of our employees, rather it is our intent to provide healthcare to our employees. If some of them use those particular services, that is an unintended negative consequence.”
Also, I think a lot of bishops know that if push came to shove, a significant % of so-called “Catholic” hospitals would tell their local ordinary to take a hike and offer the Obamacare coverage anyway, even if a courageous bishop drew a line in the sand and stood up to the mandate. In other words, the bishop would have to fight the Administration and his own Catholic hospitals.
I really don’t think a number of them realize that their credibility is already at an all-time low (as we can see from the % of Catholics voting for Obama), and that caving on Obamacare would cause it to plummet even further.
What will happen at this USCCB conference is that they will “try” to get a consensus on how to respond to Obamacare, but there will be enough of them who will be wishy-washy on the whole thing, and so no consensus will develop and it will leave a whole lot of bishops free to just quietly cave in and do nothing to prevent implementation of the HHS mandate come August 1.
I hope and pray I’m wrong, but I think there’s no more than 15-20 of the bishops, if that many, who are willing to fight this tooth and nail.
We should not assume as true the moral faults of our neighbors (espeically our bishops!) without any evidence. That’s the sin of rash judgment.
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iloveangels
Guest
Also rogue, many Americans have in their little ahistorical pea-brains that the Church can simply change what it teaches to suit them, based on political pressure. However, it cannot do this anymore than I can change the fact that tomorrow the sun will come up, or the fact that gravity exists. What’s true is true and no human being can change that. Bigger people have tried and failed.
If the bishops buckle, it won’t be like Church officials haven’t been corrupt before, because they have. If this happens, it will damage the Church in the US, like it’s damaged the Church in modern Germany with their Kirchensteuer taxes. If this happens, we will all be poorer for it, and it will open even larger “cans of worms” almost immediately. Corruption is like lying: the more you engage in it, the more you have to engage in it, and it always ends in disaster. Truth matters.
The question the USCCB has to ask itself is, of course, is it better to stand up for the faith and see things visibly damaged from outside forces OR to damage them physically yourself by disemboweling what they really are, and then try to pretend nothing has happened? We’ll find out which they pick in the next year, probably.
The qualifier here that cannot be forgotten is also that REMEMBER the dioceses–even the USCCB—don’t control everything in the US that bills itself as Catholic. See my previous post about things belonging to religious congregations, particularly those run by lay boards. Many of those outfits aren’t even Catholic NOW, even though they haven’t taken the steps to separate themselves officially from the Church by association. They will. Bet on it.
If the bishops buckle, it won’t be like Church officials haven’t been corrupt before, because they have. If this happens, it will damage the Church in the US, like it’s damaged the Church in modern Germany with their Kirchensteuer taxes. If this happens, we will all be poorer for it, and it will open even larger “cans of worms” almost immediately. Corruption is like lying: the more you engage in it, the more you have to engage in it, and it always ends in disaster. Truth matters.
The question the USCCB has to ask itself is, of course, is it better to stand up for the faith and see things visibly damaged from outside forces OR to damage them physically yourself by disemboweling what they really are, and then try to pretend nothing has happened? We’ll find out which they pick in the next year, probably.
The qualifier here that cannot be forgotten is also that REMEMBER the dioceses–even the USCCB—don’t control everything in the US that bills itself as Catholic. See my previous post about things belonging to religious congregations, particularly those run by lay boards. Many of those outfits aren’t even Catholic NOW, even though they haven’t taken the steps to separate themselves officially from the Church by association. They will. Bet on it.
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iloveangels
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This is a matter of the public policy of the Church, Joe. People can have opinions and express them.I think this is a hugely unfair assumption. Have you polled the bishops? Can you forsee the future?
We should not assume as true the moral faults of our neighbors (espeically our bishops!) without any evidence. That’s the sin of rash judgment.
Rogue points out that there would be nothing novel about some scenarios, based on history. I would tend to agree with that. Point being that I don’t know what they’re going to do and neither does Rogue, but there are certain distinct possibilities, yes.
I also don’t think that many Catholics really understand what’s going on, and there is a pretty widespread resistance to finding out. Most Catholics, on all sides it seems, really don’t care because it interferes with their little personal “lace and hankies” or conversely “peace and justice” paradigms of religion.
The really stunning thing about all this in the US is that there really ARE two Catholic Churches, but they’re not divided on the basis of left and right or conservative and progressive. Not at all. There’s 1) the parish structure which all of you know about, and then there’s 2) the corporate structure that runs on government money which most of you either don’t know about or refuse to recognize exists in its true unvarnished reality.
Oh, and then there’s those geriatric religious orders who are nearly out of commission except for their vast reserves of wealth tied up in hospitals that run on proceeds obtained from insurance benefits. The HHS mandate will make a lot of money for them, provided they ignore the USCCB which they’ve proven time and time again that they can.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Yes, people can have their opinions, but to say that the “majority” of bishops “were only half-hearted in their opposition to Obamacare” and then to speculate as to what rationale they will say to excuse cooperation goes far beyond stating mere opinion. It is in the realm of knowledge only available to one with the ability to forsee the future and also read hearts and minds.This is a matter of the public policy of the Church, Joe. People can have opinions and express them.
Rogue points out that there would be nothing novel about some scenarios, based on history. I would tend to agree with that. Point being that I don’t know what they’re going to do and neither does Rogue, but there are certain distinct possibilities, yes.
I also don’t think that many Catholics really understand what’s going on, and there is a pretty widespread resistance to finding out. Most Catholics, on all sides it seems, really don’t care because it interferes with their little personal “lace and hankies” or conversely “peace and justice” paradigms of religion.
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iloveangels
Guest
Yes, that was my point. I don’t think that Rogue really knows this to be true. At this point it’s a matter of speculation since it’s a distinct possibility, but we won’t find out what’s going to happen til next year. We’ll see, won’t we?Yes, people can have their opinions, but to say that the “majority” of bishops “were only half-hearted in their opposition to Obamacare” and then to speculate as to what rationale they will say to excuse cooperation goes far beyond stating mere opinion. It is in the realm of knowledge only available to one with the ability to forsee the future and also read hearts and minds.
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runningdude
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The government has the authority to impose anything that is not immoral. Taxing, which under which the Affordable Care Act falls, is moral. You can argue all day that it is imprudent, and you have a constitutional right to do so; but it is wrong to say it is immoral.The Federal Gov’t forcing the populace to buy a product is indeed immoral in my book.
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_Abyssinia
Guest
George Weigel said on EWTN’s World Over Live that he expects the hhs mandate to go to the supreme court under its violation of the 1993 religious freedom restoration Act and the 1st amendemdend but i take a year and Catholic institutions and employers will be pressured until
New Lincoln bishop: Church will defy health mandate on birth control coverage
New Lincoln bishop: Church will defy health mandate on birth control coverage
“The Catholic Church is not going to back down,” said Denver Auxiliary Bishop James Conley, who will start as the new bishop of the Lincoln Diocese on Nov. 20. “We are never going to compromise our principles. We will defy it and face the consequences.”
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iloveangels
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If you live in the US, you are subject to the laws of the US whether you think they’re moral or not.The government has the authority to impose anything that is not immoral. Taxing, which under which the Affordable Care Act falls, is moral. You can argue all day that it is imprudent, and you have a constitutional right to do so; but it is wrong to say it is immoral.
On the other hand, can the government pass laws that are immoral? Yes, they can.
Morality & Legality: Two very different things, runningdude. Sometimes they coincide and sometimes they don’t, unfortunately.
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iloveangels
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This is recent enough that it’s not part of the bluster of last summer. I’d take it seriously coming from Lincoln, NB. On the other hand, I wonder just how much federal money the diocese of Lincoln has been taking into hospitals and social service efforts in the area. I don’t think they have a strong history of this out there due to previous bishops (Bruskiewicz etc), and therefore don’t stand to lose as much by standing their ground. The people of Lincoln NB luck out again.
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JimG
Guest
“The Catholic Church is not going to back down,” said Denver Auxiliary Bishop James Conley, who will start as the new bishop of the Lincoln Diocese on Nov. 20. “We are never going to compromise our principles. We will defy it and face the consequences.” I’d take it very seriously coming from Bishop Conley, who was originally ordained a priest in the Wichita Kansas diocese, and is a graduate of the University of Kansas. He means what he says.This is recent enough that it’s not part of the bluster of last summer. I’d take it seriously coming from Lincoln, NB. On the other hand, I wonder just how much federal money the diocese of Lincoln has been taking into hospitals and social service efforts in the area. I don’t think they have a strong history of this out there due to previous bishops (Bruskiewicz etc), and therefore don’t stand to lose as much by standing their ground. The people of Lincoln NB luck out again.
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iloveangels
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I have no doubt. But that’s one diocese and it’s in Lincoln Nebraska. I hope NYC and Chicago and LA follow suit. We’ll see.“The Catholic Church is not going to back down,” said Denver Auxiliary Bishop James Conley, who will start as the new bishop of the Lincoln Diocese on Nov. 20. “We are never going to compromise our principles. We will defy it and face the consequences.” I’d take it very seriously coming from Bishop Conley, who was originally ordained a priest in the Wichita Kansas diocese, and is a graduate of the University of Kansas. He means what he says.
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Byrnwiga
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iloveangels
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runningdude
Guest
Power and authority are two different things. They have no authority to pass an immoral law. They may however seize the power to do so anyways.If you live in the US, you are subject to the laws of the US whether you think they’re moral or not.
On the other hand, can the government pass laws that are immoral? Yes, they can.
Morality & Legality: Two very different things, runningdude. Sometimes they coincide and sometimes they don’t, unfortunately.
You have no duty to follow an immoral law, even if the government has the power to punish you for not doing so. All just authority is devolved from God alone.
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iloveangels
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Yes, power and authority are two different things, just like legality and morality are two different things.Power and authority are two different things. They have no authority to pass an immoral law. They may however seize the power to do so anyways.
You have no duty to follow an immoral law, even if the government has the power to punish you for not doing so. All just authority is devolved from God alone.
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runningdude
Guest
If you live in the US, you are subject to the laws of the US whether you think they’re moral or not.
On the other hand, can the government pass laws that are immoral? Yes, they can.
Morality & Legality: Two very different things, runningdude. Sometimes they coincide and sometimes they don’t, unfortunately.
I don’t see where this side conversation is going. It doesn’t seem relevant to either post I made regarding “Obamacare”:Yes, power and authority are two different things, just like legality and morality are two different things.
They only oppose portions that support immoral procedures. Not all of “Obamacare” is immoral. The portions that are moral are not necessarily prudent, but fall beyond the scope of the bishop’s current concerns, which are protecting unborn children and opposing mandatory funding of contraception.
Taxing the population is moral. Contraception is not. Killing unborn children is not. The bishops only oppose the latter two regarding the Affordable Care Act out of moral necessity. If they oppose the former, they do so for practical rather than moral reasons.The government has the authority to impose anything that is not immoral. Taxing, which under which the Affordable Care Act falls, is moral. You can argue all day that it is imprudent, and you have a constitutional right to do so; but it is wrong to say it is immoral.
Forcing Americans to buy insurance is not a moral issue; Catholics and any person of good morals could support or oppose the idea on its merits.
Forcing Americans to pay for contraception or abortion is a moral issue; no person of good morals could endorse such a proposition.
The OP asked if the bishops would ever back down on “Obamacare”. The bishops can never back down on abortion or contraception, but are free to accept taxation in the form of mandatory insurance. One is a matter of morality necessity, and the other is a matter of discretion.
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iloveangels
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All this stuff that you have here is neither here nor there for the OP’s question. He wondered if the bishops would actually just throw in the towel and do what the HHS mandate demands in some fashion, either overt (not likely) or covert (quite a bit more likely). We shall see.I don’t see where this side conversation is going. It doesn’t seem relevant to either prcing Americans to buy insurance is not a moral issue; Catholics …
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