Will Christianity be destroyed if it fights against an evil and unprincipled enemy?

[fakename]

I was wondering, that if Christians were tasked with fighting an enemy that is willing to do anything to destroy them, then would Christians be able to survive such an onslaught since they must fight with principle and honor?

For instance, if one said that it would be dishonorable to lie in a war even if that lie would bring strategic advantages, then wouldn’t it follow that an enemy who didn’t care would then indeed lie and reap these advantages and thereby destroy our Christian army? Or is there some hidden usefulness in the saying be innocent as lambs and crafty as snakes?

I don’t know. What are your opinions?

 

[Offdoodykcrn]

I was wondering, that if Christians were tasked with fighting an enemy that is willing to do anything to destroy them, then would Christians be able to survive such an onslaught since they must fight with principle and honor?

For instance, if one said that it would be dishonorable to lie in a war even if that lie would bring strategic advantages, then wouldn’t it follow that an enemy who didn’t care would then indeed lie and reap these advantages and thereby destroy our Christian army? Or is there some hidden usefulness in the saying be innocent as lambs and crafty as snakes?

I don’t know. What are your opinions?

For some reason, your description of ‘Christian Army’ and war with an enemy makes me think you are talking about actual warfare - which would be antithetical to the teachings of Christ. Since the time of Christ, there have been people who have been opposed to Christians. You might recall the Romans and their lion pits, a few crusades, not to mention a fair amount of bloodshed between factions of the Christian faith.

The way Christians ‘do battle’ is through prayer, living according to Christ’s teachings and setting an example for everyone we come in contact with. As long as one person remains strong in their faith, Christianity cannot be defeated.

 

[LilyM]

I was wondering, that if Christians were tasked with fighting an enemy that is willing to do anything to destroy them, then would Christians be able to survive such an onslaught since they must fight with principle and honor?

For instance, if one said that it would be dishonorable to lie in a war even if that lie would bring strategic advantages, then wouldn’t it follow that an enemy who didn’t care would then indeed lie and reap these advantages and thereby destroy our Christian army? Or is there some hidden usefulness in the saying be innocent as lambs and crafty as snakes?

I don’t know. What are your opinions?

Christians can win, and win while behaving morally and ethically, because Christ fights with them and He is infinitely more powerful than any opponent employing any tactic of any kind.

I would venture to say they will be more successful the more morally and ethically they behave, since He can work through them for victory more powerfully the more moral and ethical their behaviour.

I would consider the story of St Maria Goretti. Her body was destroyed, but neither her soul nor her faith suffered. On the contrary, her example actually ended up inspiring the very man who killed her to repentance and conversion - so she gained, in him, an extra spiritual warrior for Christ. Besides which, the story has become well known and provided an example to millions, again gaining many more souls to fight for Christ.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Christians can win, and win while behaving morally and ethically, because Christ fights with them and He is infinitely more powerful than any opponent employing any tactic of any kind.

I would venture to say they will be more successful the more morally and ethically they behave, since He can work through them for victory more powerfully the more moral and ethical their behaviour.

I would consider the story of St Maria Goretti. Her body was destroyed, but neither her soul nor her faith suffered. On the contrary, her example actually ended up inspiring the very man who killed her to repentance and conversion - so she gained, in him, an extra spiritual warrior for Christ. Besides which, the story has become well known and provided an example to millions, again gaining many more souls to fight for Christ.

Individual Christian believers may be destroyed but the Church itself will not be destroyed. Consider all the martyrs who have died for the Faith but the Church has survived these many centuries

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

For some reason, your description of ‘Christian Army’ and war with an enemy makes me think you are talking about actual warfare - which would be antithetical to the teachings of Christ. Since the time of Christ, there have been people who have been opposed to Christians. You might recall the Romans and their lion pits, a few crusades, not to mention a fair amount of bloodshed between factions of the Christian faith.

The way Christians ‘do battle’ is through prayer, living according to Christ’s teachings and setting an example for everyone we come in contact with. As long as one person remains strong in their faith, Christianity cannot be defeated.

The Crusades were wars initiated by Christians. Several of the many Crusades were actually called for by the Pope of that time! The Church is fairly clear about the Just War Doctrine: so long as you are not the aggressor you should be okay to do as necessary in war.

 

[JRKH]

I was wondering, that if Christians were tasked with fighting an enemy that is willing to do anything to destroy them, then would Christians be able to survive such an onslaught since they must fight with principle and honor?

For instance, if one said that it would be dishonorable to lie in a war even if that lie would bring strategic advantages, then wouldn’t it follow that an enemy who didn’t care would then indeed lie and reap these advantages and thereby destroy our Christian army? Or is there some hidden usefulness in the saying be innocent as lambs and crafty as snakes?

I don’t know. What are your opinions?

Destruction of a “Christian Army” does not equate to the destruction of Christianity any more than the destruction of Nazi Germany ended Nazism. (sorry for dropping the Nazi bomb so early in the thread )

Strong ideas and beliefs will continue regardless of the destruction of certain outward signs or groups.
Christians survived, and even thrived, for 300+ years under the Roman Empire. Christians are even today surviving under repressive regimes in some places in the world.

But - To answer your question - Yes it is possible that an Army operating on Christian principles could be defeated on the field of battle by an evil and unprincipled enemy army…but winning a battle does not win the war…

Christ’s Church would survive…even if underground for a time.

Peace
James

 

[Love4All]

I was wondering, that if Christians were tasked with fighting an enemy that is willing to do anything to destroy them, then would Christians be able to survive such an onslaught since they must fight with principle and honor?

For instance, if one said that it would be dishonorable to lie in a war even if that lie would bring strategic advantages, then wouldn’t it follow that an enemy who didn’t care would then indeed lie and reap these advantages and thereby destroy our Christian army? Or is there some hidden usefulness in the saying be innocent as lambs and crafty as snakes?

I don’t know. What are your opinions?

Christians have been fighting an enemy willing to do anything to destroy them, for twenty centuries now. Of course there is much hidden wisdom in the words of Our Lord. There is also wisdom in martyrdom, so that when the enemy destroys the body of a Saint he actually brings about his own defeat. For the human sinner, for example Saint Maria Goretti’s murderer, defeat finally means surrender to God and salvation. Sometimes when we lose, we win.

 

[fakename]

Christians have been fighting an enemy willing to do anything to destroy them, for twenty centuries now. Of course there is much hidden wisdom in the words of Our Lord. There is also wisdom in martyrdom, so that when the enemy destroys the body of a Saint he actually brings about his own defeat. For the human sinner, for example Saint Maria Goretti’s murderer, defeat finally means surrender to God and salvation. Sometimes when we lose, we win.

But the devil is not allowed to use all of his power, for he would surely win if God did not intervene.

 

[fakename]

Destruction of a “Christian Army” does not equate to the destruction of Christianity any more than the destruction of Nazi Germany ended Nazism. (sorry for dropping the Nazi bomb so early in the thread )

Strong ideas and beliefs will continue regardless of the destruction of certain outward signs or groups.
Christians survived, and even thrived, for 300+ years under the Roman Empire. Christians are even today surviving under repressive regimes in some places in the world.

But - To answer your question - Yes it is possible that an Army operating on Christian principles could be defeated on the field of battle by an evil and unprincipled enemy army…but winning a battle does not win the war…

Christ’s Church would survive…even if underground for a time.

Peace
James

But what if the Church was collected into one army (as the ancient israelites)? Armies can be, and have been, slaughtered to the man. So what protects the Church from this? A miracle? That seems like the only answer, just as the jews were protected by the favor of God and his willingness to, in a sense, change the rules of war (like when he simply took away the Canaanite’s rights to “just war treatment” by ordering the Israelites to kill all of them).

 

[JRKH]

But what if the Church was collected into one army (as the ancient israelites)? Armies can be, and have been, slaughtered to the man. So what protects the Church from this? A miracle? That seems like the only answer, just as the jews were protected by the favor of God and his willingness to, in a sense, change the rules of war (like when he simply took away the Canaanite’s rights to “just war treatment” by ordering the Israelites to kill all of them).

Yes if you want to push it this far…we might be able to say that all of themembers of teh Church militant could be “killed”…but then would we die? Jesus says no. So - while the Church militant could conceivably be wiped from the planet…the Church triumphant survives…The Church is not destroyed. Christianity is not destroyed…

Peace
James

 

[fakename]

Yes if you want to push it this far…we might be able to say that all of themembers of teh Church militant could be “killed”…but then would we die? Jesus says no. So - while the Church militant could conceivably be wiped from the planet…the Church triumphant survives…The Church is not destroyed. Christianity is not destroyed…

Peace
James

Well in that case, why did Jesus even need to found the Church since then, the Church would’ve always existed since the Church Triumphant also includes angels, etc.? Plus, if the Church can be destroyed on earth, then it does not serve as the guarantee of human happiness since there is no guarantee that the devil or mere man won’t prevail over it. I am more inclined to believe in miracles than to believe your alternative, but I am not against this dialog so I anticipate your answer nonetheless.

 

[JRKH]

Well in that case, why did Jesus even need to found the Church since then, the Church would’ve always existed since the Church Triumphant also includes angels, etc.? Plus, if the Church can be destroyed on earth, then it does not serve as the guarantee of human happiness since there is no guarantee that the devil or mere man won’t prevail over it. I am more inclined to believe in miracles than to believe your alternative, but I am not against this dialog so I anticipate your answer nonetheless.

Please note that I do not discount God’s protection of the Church militant - either through obvious miracles of the type relayed in the OT…or through more subtle miracles that we might not even be aware of.
I don’t believe the Church militant could be destroyed for the simple reason that the parameters you set (All Christians gathered together in one army) cannot realistically be met and so my original response would hold valid.

As for why Jesus had to “found the Church”…I would suggest that it was more of a completion of the Church already founded within the nation of Israel.

Peace
James

 

[FrancisBenedict]

Christianity will never be destroyed.

He is with us to the end of time.

Pray, hope & don’t worry!

Pax et bonum+

 

[Love4All]

But the devil is not allowed to use all of his power, for he would surely win if God did not intervene.

According to the vision experienced by Pope Leo XIII just prior to the twentieth Century, that is false. The devil was allowed to use as much power as he could find, and was allowed as much time as he asked for. He still did not win. Hate is inferior to Love.

 

[Carolus_Martell]

No! Like gold Christianity will be refined and purified the more it stands up to evil.

 

[fakename]

According to the vision experienced by Pope Leo XIII just prior to the twentieth Century, that is false. The devil was allowed to use as much power as he could find, and was allowed as much time as he asked for. He still did not win. Hate is inferior to Love.

That vision is ambiguous no, since it says “as much as the devil asks for” which could mean only a fraction of his power (since the devil may not ask for full power since he knows God would not agree to such terms). Plus if the devil is fully unleashed, then something which has never happened since the dawn of time would’ve occurred (namely that the devils are fully unleashed) in which case, God would have no concern for mankind (since man is weak,stupid, and utterly defenseless in compared with even the weakest demons) which is false. If the devils were given full power, then why does the world still exist? One would think that they would destroy it? Or why is there still hope for mankind, since one would think that the devils would’ve already overturned the Church?

 

[LegoGE1947]

But the devil is not allowed to use all of his power, for he would surely win if God did not intervene.

Everything Satan has is not worth even a fraction of what our omnipotent God possesses in the way of power. Remember Satan is a created being (actually a fallen angel).

 

[Love4All]

That vision is ambiguous no, since it says “as much as the devil asks for” which could mean only a fraction of his power (since the devil may not ask for full power since he knows God would not agree to such terms). Plus if the devil is fully unleashed, then something which has never happened since the dawn of time would’ve occurred (namely that the devils are fully unleashed) in which case, God would have no concern for mankind (since man is weak,stupid, and utterly defenseless in compared with even the weakest demons) which is false. If the devils were given full power, then why does the world still exist? One would think that they would destroy it? Or why is there still hope for mankind, since one would think that the devils would’ve already overturned the Church?

The vision was not ambiguous. It was auditory; the Pope experienced it as overhearing a conversation between Satan and Jesus. It was more or less the following:

Satan: I can destroy your Church!

Jesus: You can? Then go ahead and do so.

Satan: I need more power and more time.

Jesus: How much power? How much time?

Satan: I need absolute power over those who will give themselves to my service, and seventy-five to a hundred years.

Jesus: You shall have all the power you ask for. Which century would you like?

Satan: The twentieth.

Jesus: Done. Do your worst!

And the rest, as they say, is history.

Satan is a finite being. His power and intellect are vast, but not infinite. He knows more about his own nature than you do. Your conjecture that God limited the power He granted him to destroy His Church is not based on a real understanding of angelic power. Satan did everything in his power to destroy God’s Church. He failed, not because God bested him in a battle of strength, but because God is Love, and hate is inferior to Love.

God already demonstrated His Omnipotence in a battle of strength, when He led the Israelites out of Egypt. Since that was a battle of strength, God’s Victory was real but not permanent, because Strength is not the same thing as Love. The Final Battle is not a battle of strength, but a battle of the Spirit of Love against the spirit of iniquity. It is a spiritual battle, not a physical one. God did not throw chariots into the Sea, when He defeated Satan definitively at the close of the twentieth century. Rather, He increased His graces of Love and of conversion from sin through His Immaculate Mother’s Rosary. And that increase, is still continuing to this day, and will continue, until sin is no more. It is through the Rosary that God demonstrates His Omnipotence of His Love over Satan and his legions of evil.