Will Europe go back to Christianity anytime soon?

[Timi_Celcer]

Europe is becoming more and more secular. I live in Europe and i feel i can’t even freely express my religious beliefs (because of prejudice). I’m 15 and i go to mass every sunday. When people hear that i go to mass every sunday they quickly start thinking that i’m weird, and i believe that is one of the most important reasons why Europe is becoming more and more secular. The anti-religious pressure that society imposes on us is to high for some people. Morality in Europe is in decline, mostly because of the decline of Christianity. And the governments don’t even care, they just do everything that would make people happy. The European Union wants more and more restriction of religious items everywhere. They literally want to erase religion from public life. But the fact is that people here in Europe are becoming more and more scared of the rise of Islam in Europe. That could lead to the promotion of Christian values and Christianity in general by the EU and individual governments. But what do you think, can the traditional Christian continent come back to its Christian roots?

 

[JimG]

It’s sad that Europe along with the U.S. And most of Western Civilization, is abandoning its foundation which is Christianity. Will it survive the wholesale rejection of Christianity? I think that ultimately, it will, but only after first undergoing collapse and a new dark age, from which Christianity will once again rebuild it.

That’s not a very sanguine outlook, at least for the moment. It’s just my opinion. I think that a citizen of Rome might have asked the same question in the early 400’s wondering what was to become of his civilization.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Europe is becoming more and more secular. I live in Europe and i feel i can’t even freely express my religious beliefs (because of prejudice). I’m 15 and i go to mass every sunday. When people hear that i go to mass every sunday they quickly start thinking that i’m weird, and i believe that is one of the most important reasons why Europe is becoming more and more secular. The anti-religious pressure that society imposes on us is to high for some people. Morality in Europe is in decline, mostly because of the decline of Christianity

I would guess that probably depends on where you live in Europe. I would also guess, although as an American I don’t have a perfect picture of what is going on across the Atlantic, that this would probably only be true in western Europe. I can’t imagine morality and a religious presence are declining in eastern Europe as a whole after half a century of oppressive Communism.

But the fact is that people here in Europe are becoming more and more scared of the rise of Islam in Europe. That could lead to the promotion of Christian values and Christianity in general by the EU and individual governments. But what do you think, can the traditional Christian continent come back to its Christian roots?

I think Europe could go back to its Christian roots, but it would take strong witnesses to do so. If it does I hope it doesn’t do so because its afraid of Islam. Of course I would be happy Europe would be more Christian, but it would be doing so for the wrong reasons. Jesus and JPII both said, “Do not be afraid.” So why be afraid of Islam? There’s nothing to fear, and if the Church in Europe does fear it then that’s not a good sign for the Church.

 

[TK421]

You’re going to live and die without ever seeing the Promised Land that you wish for. Everybody else before us has. All of us will.

Go to Mass. Make good friends. Grow deep roots in your faith. Become strong and solid. The Church here on Earth is the Church militant; we are inside of occupied territory.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Is morality in Europe in decline? How so?

Maybe he is referring to euthanasia laws in countries like the Netherlands? As a whole though Europe is arguably more moral than the USA from a Christian standpoint.

If so…why do you link it with a decline in Christian numbers? (many people who are not Christian are very moral).

.

I think this brings up a good point. Religion has been declining in Europe ever since the Enlightenment. And one would be fighting an uphill battle trying to defend a position that the Enlightenment and Age of Reason wasn’t demanding improved morality (liberty, fraternity, equality). Yet, IMO there are two major differences between then and now. Before, society was essentially Christian, and in fact the Enlightenment could only have happened in a Christian environment, where reason was valued. Even the goals of the Enlightenment have their origins in Christianity, and many great Enlightenment thinkers were devoutly religious. Now, Europe is no longer religious; besides a few select areas, western Europe is nonreligious. The other major difference is that we no longer have as much confidence in reason. The Age of Reason inherited a concept of the world that was Thomistic, that we can understand the world as it really is. Even though there were many rationalists and the static worldview from the Middle Ages was burst open, the background for this was only possible with the basic philosophy of Aquinas. Nowadays, there is a great danger known as relativism, which distrusts the power of reason; nothing can be known with certainty, it claims. This includes morality, which has no foundation without religion or reason.

In short, without religion or reason, there is ultimately no escape from an immoral and self-centered society.

And I’m sure my fellow Catholics will agree with me that there can be no true humanism and at best an imperfect humanism without both reason and religion in the center, which is only made possible in Jesus Christ.

 

[GraceSofia]

As a whole though Europe is arguably more moral than the USA from a Christian standpoint.

I was just curious why you think that? Are you thinking in terms of abortion rates or violent crime rates or…?

 

[Robert_Sock]

I believe that Western societies will again become religious, but not before the mass media recognizes Christianity as a strong source of spiritual LOVE and charity. I also believe that in due time there will be a peaceful alliance between Muslims, Christianity and Judaism, where LOVE, charity and the worship of the same God will ignite a worldwide religious revival.

LOVE!

 

[Barricade]

Just like in the life of one man, a personal crisis can be the catalyst for a return to faith, so too in civilizations a crisis can mean the same thing. I think the increasing Muslim populations in European countries coupled with the increasing unrest between the two cultures is going to lead to conflict between them in such a way that many Europeans are going to become religious Christians once again.

When these societies become fractured, in ways like those in the Balkans have, people are going to look to rally around certain pillars of their civilization. Sadly this sometimes means people resort to racism, but this should be condemned, instead, Catholicism should be the pillar around which Europe should rally in the event of such a crisis.

I would love for Europeans to just come back regardless, but it seems they (along with Westerners in general) will persist in a kind of nihilistic existence until an outside force threatens them to their face. And we are seeing the beginnings of this with dangerous elements of Islam making advances in European countries, threatening to undermine the good things Western civilization has held onto even in the midst of this nihilistic malaise the West seems to be going through.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Just like in the life of one man, a personal crisis can be the catalyst for a return to faith, so too in civilizations a crisis can mean the same thing. I think the increasing Muslim populations in European countries coupled with the increasing unrest between the two cultures is going to lead to conflict between them in such a way that many Europeans are going to become religious Christians once again.

When these societies become fractured, in ways like those in the Balkans have, people are going to look to rally around certain pillars of their civilization. Sadly this sometimes means people resort to racism, but this should be condemned, instead, Catholicism should be the pillar around which Europe should rally in the event of such a crisis.

I would love for Europeans to just come back regardless, but it seems they (along with Westerners in general) will persist in a kind of nihilistic existence until an outside force threatens them to their face. And we are seeing the beginnings of this with dangerous elements of Islam making advances in European countries, threatening to undermine the good things Western civilization has held onto even in the midst of this nihilistic malaise the West seems to be going through.

Do not Muslims have a right to live wherever they want, provided they are citizens? I honestly see this as an unrealistic fear, “paranoia.” Jews, Christians and Muslims can live together in peace.

LOVE!

 

[Barricade]

I honestly see this as an unrealistic fear, “paranoia.”

Why is it unrealistic?

Are Christians not being slaughtered in the Middle-East?
Is not the anti-semitism in the Islamic world well documented?
Is not terrorism world wide conducted principally by Muslims?
Is there not growing conflict in Europe between Western and Islamic values?

Jews, Christians and Muslims can live together in peace.

Is it possible? Yes. Do we? Not always and not in all contexts.

Glossing over core differences is a dangerous mistake. Compare Jesus and Muhammad, in their respective religions both are considered the ideal for moral conduct, if this is put into practice, conflict between the two lifestyles is inevitable. Of course not ALL Muslims are terrorists or a threat, but it cannot be ignored that the motivations for such horrible acts of violence by Muslims come from reading the Qur’an and the Hadith, the core Islamic sources.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Why is it unrealistic?

Are Christians not being slaughtered in the Middle-East?
Is not the anti-semitism in the Islamic world well documented?
Is not terrorism world wide conducted principally by Muslims?
Is there not growing conflict in Europe between Western and Islamic values?

It’s not fair to Muslims to stereotype what is going on in the Middle-East with extremest. The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, loving people.

Is it possible? Yes. Do we? Not always and not in all contexts.

Glossing over core differences is a dangerous mistake. Compare Jesus and Muhammad, in their respective religions both are considered the ideal for moral conduct, if this is put into practice, conflict between the two lifestyles is inevitable. Of course not ALL Muslims are terrorists or a threat, but it cannot be ignored that the motivations for such horrible acts of violence by Muslims come from reading the Qur’an and the Hadith, the core Islamic sources.

Do we ever need to fear conflicts between Jews and Christians? No, they are well respected, and we live side by side with them. What makes you think that we are unable to live side by side with Muslims?

Do Muslims become terrorists by reading the Qur’an? This is absurd.

LOVE!

 

[Barricade]

It’s not fair to Muslims to stereotype what is going on in the Middle-East with extremest.

I never used the word extremist because it is vague and begs the question: extreme compared to what? I have simply said, the sources revered by Muslims (Qur’an and Sunnah) contain information that acts as inspiration for horrible acts of violence. This is true. What also is true is that Muslims revere Muhammad as the ideal example of moral conduct (a belief based in the Qur’an), but a brief overview of the life and deeds of Muhammad will immediately make you uneasy with such a belief.

The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, loving people.

The majority isn’t the principal concern, it’s the significant and active minority that is the problem. It only took 19 hijackers to kill thousands on 9/11.

What makes you think that we are unable to live side by side with Muslims?

I never said we are unable to live side by side with Muslims. My point is that it is naive to just assume we will in all cases and ignore the fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity, and Islam and the West. Conflict IS growing, I don’t see how you could deny this given the current state of affairs.

Do Muslims become terrorists by reading the Qur’an? This is absurd.

They can, yes. To say the opposite, that definitively, Muslims will not be motivated to conduct terrorism by reading the Qur’an is what is absurd.

If content of the gospel says “Love thy neighbor as thyself” that engenders people acting accordingly even if there is a variation as to how well this is executed. Likewise, “kill the unbelievers where ever you find them” engenders similar reactions. Some Muslims will ignore, others will reinterpret, others will take it as is; bottom line, it will provide inspiration for terror and the like.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I never used the word extremist because it is vague and begs the question: extreme compared to what? I have simply said, the sources revered by Muslims (Qur’an and Sunnah) contain information that acts as inspiration for horrible acts of violence. This is true. What also is true is that Muslims revere Muhammad as the ideal example of moral conduct (a belief based in the Qur’an), but a brief overview of the life and deeds of Muhammad will immediately make you uneasy with such a belief.

The majority isn’t the principal concern, it’s the significant and active minority that is the problem. It only took 19 hijackers to kill thousands on 9/11.

I never said we are unable to live side by side with Muslims. My point is that it is naive to just assume we will in all cases and ignore the fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity, and Islam and the West. Conflict IS growing, I don’t see how you could deny this given the current state of affairs.

They can, yes. To say the opposite, that definitively, Muslims will not be motivated to conduct terrorism by reading the Qur’an is what is absurd.

If content of the gospel says “Love thy neighbor as thyself” that engenders people acting accordingly even if there is a variation as to how well this is executed. Likewise, “kill the unbelievers where ever you find them” engenders similar reactions. Some Muslims will ignore, others will reinterpret, others will take it as is; bottom line, it will provide inspiration for terror and the like.

Shall we discriminate against mainstream Muslims? I do not think so. There will be peace between Muslims and rest of the Western societies. Hysteria is unwarranted.

LOVE!

 

[Barricade]

Shall we discriminate against mainstream Muslims? I do not think so.

Where did I suggest anything of the sort?

There will be peace between Muslims and rest of the Western societies.

what makes you think this?

Hysteria is unwarranted.

Nothing I said was hysterical, just logical as far as I can tell.

 

[GraceSofia]

There will be peace between Muslims and rest of the Western societies. Hysteria is unwarranted.

That is your opinion. Others disagree.

Nothing I said was hysterical, just logical as far as I can tell.

Based on history and contemporary events, I agree that we have reason to be concerned.

(However, there have been numerous threads about the threat or not of Islam to Western civilisation, and I think that to continue in this vein is veering off the topic of this thread).

So…
I remembered a news story I saw during the recent canonisations that made me so mad, and I think it relates to this topic pretty well. Euronews is seen all over the European Union zone. Their brief story on the canonisations dwelt more than 50% on the old sex abuse scandal. It was a very negative story. Now not all the news outlets were this negative, but I think it is telling that this is what they chose to broadcast. Anything to do with Christianity is shown in a negative light. It is a reflection of modern European views on the subject, or at least of the media and the governing elites.

euronews.com/2014/04/26/faithful-flock-to-rome-ahead-of-double-canonisation-of-popes/

 

[manualman]

Robert Sock, you are reasoning via the fallacy of western secularism. Secularists unconsciously believe that religion is irrelevant and plays no strong determinant role in cultural characteristics. Catholics should find such reasoning insulting and fallacious. We believe that the princples revealed by God to be true and that the Grace God offers make a profound difference in individuals and that that difference, if real, must logically result in a difference in culture.

Muslims are human and so are good, but fallen like us. But it does not follow that ISLAM is good. There are fundamental Islamic principles witnessed to by Muhammed himself and illustrated clearly in his life and teachings that are downright evil and destructive to society. Frankly, I’d assert that Islamic societies started with a massive lead on the West due to the inheritance of the learning of the Greeks (largely lost in the west for a long time), the legacy of mathematic learning in the Arabic world that began even before the Islamic age and the beneficial fusion of the two that occurred for a time. But in spite of that massive lead, they stagnated culturally and got leapfrogged by the 17th century and never have caught up. That stagnation has a lot to do with the fact that Islam teaches God to be inscrutable rather than rational (if beyond our COMPLETE comprehension).

My prediction: Hard to say. On the one hand, Europe is nearing the end of a cultural dead end right now. The secular humanist paradigm has literally lost it’s will to live. It’s focus is on entertainment, comfort and the avoidance of suffering. Those of such a bent decline by about HALF with each succeeding generation. Muslims are having babies and believing christians are having babies (and these days those babies are much more likely to stay believers when growing up than just a few years ago). Everybody else has none to one.

So in my opinion the future of Europe comes down to the question of whether the surviving and reproducing believers can repopulate the place fast enough not to become dhimmi in their own nations of origin. If muslims ever become the majority, they will oppress the Christians to the point where christians seek to emigrate. It’s the muslim way EVERYWHERE that they are the majority. There’s literally not one majority Islamic country on earth where Christian believers can practice their faith completely openly (Don’t even try me on Indonesia. I had college friends from there who converted who had to hide their conversion when visiting home in fear of their lives!).

I’m not necessarily one who predicts muslim hegemony either though. We tend to underestimate the problems of our rivals in the west. Once they become strong in a particular area, muslim societies spend much of their energies on internal struggles rather than external jihad. That could well dissipate much of the momentum they seem to be gathering today.

 

[JimG]

Robert Sock, you are reasoning via the fallacy of western secularism. Secularists unconsciously believe that religion is irrelevant and plays no strong determinant role in cultural characteristics. Catholics should find such reasoning insulting and fallacious. We believe that the princples revealed by God to be true and that the Grace God offers make a profound difference in individuals and that that difference, if real, must logically result in a difference in culture.

Muslims are human and so are good, but fallen like us. But it does not follow that ISLAM is good. There are fundamental Islamic principles witnessed to by Muhammed himself and illustrated clearly in his life and teachings that are downright evil and destructive to society. Frankly, I’d assert that Islamic societies started with a massive lead on the West due to the inheritance of the learning of the Greeks (largely lost in the west for a long time), the legacy of mathematic learning in the Arabic world that began even before the Islamic age and the beneficial fusion of the two that occurred for a time. But in spite of that massive lead, they stagnated culturally and got leapfrogged by the 17th century and never have caught up. That stagnation has a lot to do with the fact that Islam teaches God to be inscrutable rather than rational (if beyond our COMPLETE comprehension).

My prediction: Hard to say. On the one hand, Europe is nearing the end of a cultural dead end right now. The secular humanist paradigm has literally lost it’s will to live. It’s focus is on entertainment, comfort and the avoidance of suffering. Those of such a bent decline by about HALF with each succeeding generation. Muslims are having babies and believing christians are having babies (and these days those babies are much more likely to stay believers when growing up than just a few years ago). Everybody else has none to one.

So in my opinion the future of Europe comes down to the question of whether the surviving and reproducing believers can repopulate the place fast enough not to become dhimmi in their own nations of origin. If muslims ever become the majority, they will oppress the Christians to the point where christians seek to emigrate. It’s the muslim way EVERYWHERE that they are the majority. There’s literally not one majority Islamic country on earth where Christian believers can practice their faith completely openly (Don’t even try me on Indonesia. I had college friends from there who converted who had to hide their conversion when visiting home in fear of their lives!).

I’m not necessarily one who predicts muslim hegemony either though. We tend to underestimate the problems of our rivals in the west. Once they become strong in a particular area, muslim societies spend much of their energies on internal struggles rather than external jihad. That could well dissipate much of the momentum they seem to be gathering today.

That’s a pretty good summary of the state of Europe, most of which has a declining fertility rate, with population propped up largely by immigration. Can believing Christians repopulate nations “fast enough not to become dhimmi in their own nations of origin?” An interesting question. Islamic resurgence coupled with a Western death wish does not bode well.

 

[manualman]

Islamic resurgence coupled with a Western death wish does not bode well.

And yet not as drastic as you might think either.

Christianity practically died out in Europe because people didn’t notice that the common culture had adopted subtly different value basis until after they had been infected by it. The believer that are left are the ones who were immune and they’re going to raise their kids with the same defenses. It’s too soon to write Europe off entirely. France, of all places, is showing some real signs of recognizing the emptiness of secularism and taking a second look at what brought them this far.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Please remember that, in Italy at least, the small towns/rural areas are still pretty darn devout. Same here, really.

 

[JimG]

Please remember that, in Italy at least, the small towns/rural areas are still pretty darn devout. Same here, really.

Well, it’s true around here as well.

It was also true of the Catholic peasants of the Vendee region of France during the French revolution who fought back against the Paris revolutionaries who wished to destroy their churches and turn their priests into civil servants. The Vendee uprising, however, did not prevent the revolutionaries from guillotining simple nuns for the mere fact of being nuns, in the name of liberte, egalite, and fraternite. A lot of blood in the name of egalite. The gift of the Enlightenment.