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itsjustdave1988
Guest
If you believe in the inerrancy of Sacred Scripture and the infallibility of doctrinal declarations of ecumencial councils, then yes, you can know this with absolute certainty.
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adnauseum
Guest
Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for an angry mob when someone threatens the Catholic faith. I just want to know what Cardinal von Balthasar said. It looks like nobody is particularly sure. So I ask, is this really the most charitable thing we could be doing this afternoon?adnauseum,
My, aren’t you easily agitated.
If you could take a deep breath and re-read what I wrote, you’d see that I didn’t call Balthazar a heretic. I explicitly said I had no knowledge of his particular thesis, then went on to explain what was condemned as error, NOT BY ME, but by the Catholic Church was apokatastasis. If Balthazar’s thesis is apokatastasis, it was already condemned by the Catholic Church, NOT BY ME.
Nothing more.
If I offended, I apologize to the max.
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Genesis315
Guest
I think it’s also certain that Judas is in Hell because it was better that he had never been born. If you go to Heaven, no matter how many eons you spend in Purgatory, it’s still better than not existing.
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marty1818
Guest
I don’t think Hans Urs von Balthazar was ever elevated to Cardinal.
matt
matt
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Windmill
Guest
I have heard this idea that it is a poosibility that Hell will be empty. What is assumed here is that it is mortal souls, not demonic angels.
However, it is mere hypothesizing that, in my opinion, has no practical use other than to promote universalism and complacency within the Church.
However, it is mere hypothesizing that, in my opinion, has no practical use other than to promote universalism and complacency within the Church.
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DavidB
Guest
Now you’re changing what Jesus said and wrongly putting words into His mouth.
David
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DavidB
Guest
Yes, we know this for sure. If someone dies apart from Christ, that person can not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven and the only other choice is Hell. Jesus taught us about the Great White Judgement Seat in which He tells “MANY” to depart from Him cause He never knew them - it’s based on what we did DURING our life times. And Jesus told us about multitudes suffering in Hell with great weeping and gnashing of teeth. I suggest that you start reading scriptures and stop speculating so much. I’m not trying to be critical, but if you were more familiar with the New Testament, then you wouldn’t have such questions.
David
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Mijoy2
Guest
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
David, I faill to see how I changed what Jesus said or how I put words in His mouth. Beyond failing to see how I did it, I’d never deliberately do it.
Please send your accusations in another direction.
Thank you
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DavidB
Guest
Mijoy2 said:
You said, “The wording almost seems to deliberately stop short of saying many will follow the path to the end. Many take the path and turn back.” Isn’t that saying that Jesus implied that many will take the wide path ***temporarily and then turn back ***. . . and that’s NOT what He said. He said MANY take the path and He meant it. Expect to see MANY in Hell, not Hell being empty.
David
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Fiat
Guest
DavidB:
I concur with your conclusion but on different grounds. The key to the teaching is not the word “many” in verse 13. After all, the road that leads to destruction is undoubtedly begun in this life, and as Christians, (unless you subscribe to Calvin’s predestination), we can agree that we have the grace to choose the narrower path. Instead, the key lies in the word “few” in verse 14 in which Christ says few will find the narrow path.
Fiat
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Mijoy2
Guest
Well this gets into a long debate that I have yet to hear a good answer for.
God creates billions of men, most die and burn forever in hell. “few” go to heaven. How is this a good plan?
In my original comment I used the word “seems”, implying I was not making a definitive statement I was exercising my freedom ( I do not think the Church has a definate interpretation on this passage that I am held accountable for) to interpret this passage in a manner of which I hope will ultimately yield more then just a"few" people in Heaven and “many” in hell.
Unless I am mistaken, which I very well could be, the Church does not require me to believe that x% of people wind up in Heaven in the rest Hell. I take this as a freedom for me to interpret passages such as Matthew 6:13,14 in a manner that seems to come from what I believe to be a loving God that from time eternal, devised a perfect plan.
By the way, the passsage does stop short of stating emphatically that the people who take the wide path, take it fully to it’s destination. In fact I’d go further to say that it could also imply that even though “few” find the narrow path, they may possibly just be led to it.
Maybe I am overly optimistic. But I do not go against teachings of the church (of which I am aware) to suit my own agenda.
I just try to reconcile what seems (emphasis on seems, gotta be careful here) to be unjust.
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Fiat
Guest
Dear Mijoy:Well this gets into a long debate that I have yet to hear a good answer for.
God creates billions of men, most die and burn forever in hell. “few” go to heaven. How is this a good plan?
In my original comment I used the word “seems”, implying I was not making a definitive statement I was exercising my freedom ( I do not think the Church has a definate interpretation on this passage that I am held accountable for) to interpret this passage in a manner of which I hope will ultimately yield more then just a"few" people in Heaven and “many” in hell.
Unless I am mistaken, which I very well could be, the Church does not require me to believe that x% of people wind up in Heaven in the rest Hell. I take this as a freedom for me to interpret passages such as Matthew 6:13,14 in a manner that seems to come from what I believe to be a loving God that from time eternal, devised a perfect plan.
By the way, the passsage does stop short of stating emphatically that the people who take the wide path, take it fully to it’s destination. In fact I’d go further to say that it could also imply that even though “few” find the narrow path, they may possibly just be led to it.
Maybe I am overly optimistic. But I do not go against teachings of the church (of which I am aware) to suit my own agenda.
I certainly don’t want to be the one to affirmatively and emphatically dismiss your speculation as DavidB has done. I am content to let God be God and let the Spirit lead Holy Mother Church in her infallibility. I also think you raise a good point. After all, Christ’s whole purpose in coming was to provide us with the necessary grace. If the Christian life with grace is equally hard or harder to achieve salvation as compared to the Old Covenant law, then there seems little purpose in Our Lord’s sufferings. I don’t think I could ever conclude, however, that hell will be “empty.”
Fiat
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Donna_P
Guest
Please please please…go to our Catechism. It’s wonderful that you are searching and reading to find answers and definitions and explanations about the Catholic Church. But go to reliable sources. Some ones “opinion” is not a good source unless it is supported by the Catholic Church.
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enanneman
Guest
Because, if there was only one person on Earth, the Father still would have sent His only son to die for that person’s sin.
At least, that is my humble opinion.
Peace and God bless!
Eric
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The_Augustinian
Guest
- Fr. v. Balthasar was elevated to the cardinalate, but I believe he died before he was incardinated.
- His speculations are in his book Dare We Hope “That All Men Be Saved”? published by Ignatius Press.
- The speculation is whether we can hope that all men are saved, not that all men are saved.
- God gives all men sufficent grace to be saved.
- It is possible that all men can go to heaven.
- We are bound to hope that God saves all sinners (Fatima prayer, etc.)
- It is perfectly acceptable to hope that all men will be saved.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
The Augustinian,
To be clear, we pray and hope that no man enters hell. Not that after “forever and ever” is over, all creatures, including Satan and his demons and the others mentioned in the Book of Revelation are saved from the “lake of fire” and joined with God in heaven. That’s simply a heresy called Universalism.
St. John the apostle was given a vision of the end. In his vision, he described a lake of fire where the devil and his demons, the false prophet, and those who followed him will be thrown, “and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (NASB Rev 20:10). (see also Rev 19:20, 20:14, 20:15, and 22:18). This is the last we hear of the “bad guys” of the Bible. To conclude there’s an unwritten “sequel” to the Bible that has God retrieving this bad guys from the lake of fire is just unconvincing. (And in Catholicism, the proposition was condemned.)
I don’t know what Fr. von Balthazar taught, but if it was that God will bring into heaven the “bad guys” thrown into the “lake of fire” after they are done being “tormented day and night forever and ever,” then I’d say Fr. von Balthazar’s got some ‘splainin’ to do.
See long discussion about it here, referencing Scripture and Tradition: Hell and everlasting punishment
To be clear, we pray and hope that no man enters hell. Not that after “forever and ever” is over, all creatures, including Satan and his demons and the others mentioned in the Book of Revelation are saved from the “lake of fire” and joined with God in heaven. That’s simply a heresy called Universalism.
St. John the apostle was given a vision of the end. In his vision, he described a lake of fire where the devil and his demons, the false prophet, and those who followed him will be thrown, “and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (NASB Rev 20:10). (see also Rev 19:20, 20:14, 20:15, and 22:18). This is the last we hear of the “bad guys” of the Bible. To conclude there’s an unwritten “sequel” to the Bible that has God retrieving this bad guys from the lake of fire is just unconvincing. (And in Catholicism, the proposition was condemned.)
I don’t know what Fr. von Balthazar taught, but if it was that God will bring into heaven the “bad guys” thrown into the “lake of fire” after they are done being “tormented day and night forever and ever,” then I’d say Fr. von Balthazar’s got some ‘splainin’ to do.
See long discussion about it here, referencing Scripture and Tradition: Hell and everlasting punishment
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Pete Vere, a canon lawer and frequent writer in Envoy and This Rock magazines gave this review of Fr. von Balthazar’s book on Amazon.com:
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898702070/qid=1118968716/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8657379-1176757?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898702070/qid=1118968716/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8657379-1176757?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
It doesn’t appear that Fr. von Balthazar is professing the heresy of Universalism or “universal resortation” (apokatastasis) as Origen and others taught.
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Shoshana
Guest
According to the seer in Fatima, there are many, many souls in hell!
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UKcatholicGuy
Guest
The devil wants nothing less than for us to believe that hell will be empty. Despite God’s great Love, hell will be packed, I assure you. Jesus Himself said that few will find the way to salvation. Salvation is hard. Look at what Our Savior had to endure. And didn’t He command us to do the same? “If any man wishes to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross.” I’m paraphrasing, but you get the point; we’ve all heard it. He wasn’t lying.
We do play a very active role in determining the number of souls in hell. We can share the Gospel and show them our Love for Christ and His Love for them. I say it’s time-- and I’m speaking to myself more than anyone-- that we start living John Paul’s command to be a witness and evangelize the whole world!
We do play a very active role in determining the number of souls in hell. We can share the Gospel and show them our Love for Christ and His Love for them. I say it’s time-- and I’m speaking to myself more than anyone-- that we start living John Paul’s command to be a witness and evangelize the whole world!
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RSiscoe
Guest
Amen!
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